Should I consider a 36ft 1970s Springer for 14K - beautifully refurbished

[David Mack]

 

The hull only needs to be thick enough to keep the water out. Does it REALLY matter if the surveyor's gadget says the 6mm plate is down to 3.8mm here and there?

 

 

If this is a Springer there is every chance that the original plate was less than 6mm, maybe 5mm or even less originally, and perhaps paper thin 30-odd years on.

 

Alternatively it might be a bit of ex-gasholder plate, thoroughly pickled by tar and good for anopther century or so (and reputedly flattened by driving old Sam's Landrover over it).

 

David

[Teadaemon]

If this is a Springer there is every chance that the original plate was less than 6mm, maybe 5mm or even less originally, and perhaps paper thin 30-odd years on.

 

Alternatively it might be a bit of ex-gasholder plate, thoroughly pickled by tar and good for anopther century or so (and reputedly flattened by driving old Sam's Landrover over it).

 

David

 

As I recall, quite a few Springers are 3mm plate, which is perfectly fine (plenty of ocean going yachts are 3mm plate), providing the ribs and stringers are of an appropriate size and close enough together. In most steel boats (as opposed to narrowboats) the sole function of the plating is to keep the water out, all of the strength is provided by the other structure. As a general rule, and assuming normal scantlings have been used, a loss of up to 10% of the original thickness is acceptable, more than that and the plate should be replaced (yes I know people overplate narrowboats, but I can't bring myself to suggest doing it when I know the likely end result is a sunken pile of rust 10 years down the line).

[DickBrowne]

And also be aware of the limitation of a survey. We had Pinmill surveyed when we bought her in October last year, and the point was made that the blacking should be renewed this year, we've just had her done and I have to say that there was a horrible mess under the blacking, it took an age to scrape enough off to be able to chip the rust away and the guy who owned the slip where it was done reckons that it should have been done at least a season before we bought her. When she was surveyed there was no sign that anything was amiss.

 

The survey did pick up a few issues - a gas leak and some wiring problems which combined could have made for an interesting series of events, but having seen what happened to our boat in one winter, I'd be sceptical about the reality of a survey from now on.

[MtB]

If this is a Springer there is every chance that the original plate was less than 6mm, maybe 5mm or even less originally, and perhaps paper thin 30-odd years on.

 

Alternatively it might be a bit of ex-gasholder plate, thoroughly pickled by tar and good for anopther century or so (and reputedly flattened by driving old Sam's Landrover over it).

 

David

 

The latter seems more likely. Did Sam ever makes boats out of new steel?

 

But really, so what if the hull is paper thin in places? Some types of paper are really thick! As a surveyor I was chatting with the other week said, the only reason for a boat sinking is the bilge pump not being able to pump fast enough. A paper-thin hull is hardly going to fail suddenly is it? Fine, get it overplated if and when it starts leaking, but until then, why worry? That day *could* be decades away!

 

It's one thing to be fretting about hull thickness on a £70k boat, quite another to be quibbling about hull thinkness on an elderly boat on the market for pocket money (relatively speaking). Lets keep some perspective here!

Edited August 3, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[boatyboy]

In a word no.old Sp***gers are crap.I've had one.It was about as thick as bacofoil

[mrsmelly]

 

I av one of those there gadgets and bloody accurate they are too

[MtB]

In a word no.old Sp***gers are crap.I've had one.It was about as thick as bacofoil

 

How old was it, and did it leak?

[sebrof]

No, it was an architect who believed that a building's shape should be designed solely with it's purpose in mind...but I've forgotten his name.

 

Off to Google I go....

 

 

Edited to add: It was American Architect Louis Sullivan.

 

So, no Gothic cathedrals, no Taj Mahal, no Sagrada Familia, no St Basil's Cathedral, no South Edwardes Square. Just Nissan huts everywhere.

 

And probably no John Alden yachts.

 

Not sure I'm with you on this one, Carl.

[Laurie Booth]

In a word no.old Sp***gers are crap.I've had one.It was about as thick as bacofoil

You're getting me worried.

[blackrose]

I like to think my boat looks good and works well.

35ft Springer

 

What's the difference between Laurie's Springer to the one with a bow like the one below? Is one easily identifiable as older than the other for example?

 

Edited August 4, 2011 by blackrose

[JDR]

If the hull is toast it is unlikely to be worth spending thousands on a boat with a limited market value.So the fact that the boat is "only" worth 14k could be an arguement in favour of confirming the hull condition.

Edited August 4, 2011 by JDR

[blackrose]

If the hull is toast it is unlikely to be worth spending thousands on a boat with a limited market value.So the fact that the boat is "only" worth 14k could be an arguement in favour of confirming the hull condition.

 

I agree with the first part of what you say but I'm not sure I understand the rest? Do you mean that the vendor knows the hull is in bad condition and so is pricing it accordingly? If that's what is meant it's making quite a few assumptions.

 

Springers were always fairly cheap compared to other boats even if the hulls were in good condition. I sold my 45' Springer for £16k and I'd spent £2k on hull plating, so £14 for this boat actually seems about right or even a little high to me.

 

The main question that the OP has to consider in my opinion, is whether to spend money on getting the boat out of the water and a survey. That can come to more than £500 and there's a fair chance you may have to walk away if the hull isn't in very good condition.

[bizzard]

In a word no.old Sp***gers are crap.I've had one.It was about as thick as bacofoil

Still a lot of old Springers about,most of which are ex-hire boats,early ones had the 2 fold type roof,i think these were the boiler plate ones,mostly withe Lister SR2-3 or BMC 1500. Single chine hull like Harborough Marine,which made the hulls very strong for they're thickness,Both these makes handled well,and could be steered astern easily,as apposed to most more modern slab sided hulled boats. Both makes were built mainly for the hire industry and were not expected to last very long,but indeed many are still going strong especially the Springers.Very good designs. bizzard

[Laurie Booth]

What's the difference between Laurie's Springer to the one with a bow like the one below? Is one easily identifiable as older than the other for example?

 

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s204/lauriebooth/Kennet%20and%20Avon%20Canal/hungerford.jpg

My Springer is a different model. It is a Springer Tug built 1989.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Laurie.Booth

[Odana]

Friends of mine bought a good little springer for 15k without a survey - at that price it was worht the risk Two months later they were having it replated after the floor sprung a leak, and much of the fully functional interior they'd bought it for had to come out anyway to do that. It cost em a lot more than a survey and they never did get it finished back to the original.

 

All depends if you can afford to, or are willing to, risk your £14k, and have additional funds available for if you need to do extra work. You'll *probably* be fine.

[Laurie Booth]

I wish I wasn't reading this.

[bizzard]

I wish I wasn't reading this.

Don't worry.

They're good boats,and have, and will outlast many much later boats.All older boats ie 60's 70's,suffer the same plating problems.Depends where they operate. Corrosion,Electrolosys rust.The Achilles heel on all boats is the waterline,and worse the weed box,which tends to get neglected,rusts through,and boat sinks.Have raised a few,always weed box or its lid at fault. bzzard

[Laurie Booth]

Don't worry.

They're good boats,and have, and will outlast many much later boats.All older boats ie 60's 70's,suffer the same plating problems.Depends where they operate. Corrosion,Electrolosys rust.The Achilles heel on all boats is the waterline,and worse the weed box,which tends to get neglected,rusts through,and boat sinks.Have raised a few,always weed box or its lid at fault. bzzard

Thanks for the advice, it is genuinely appreciated.

[JDR]

I agree with the first part of what you say but I'm not sure I understand the rest? Do you mean that the vendor knows the hull is in bad condition and so is pricing it accordingly? If that's what is meant it's making quite a few assumptions.

Not claiming any knowledge of current hull condition.Previous posts suggested that it is pointless getting a survey as the boat is only worth 14k.The point I was making was that if a survey did highlight the need for remedial work on the hull this cost could potentially represent a high proportion of the boat's total worth making it economically unwise to proceed.

[carlt]

 

Not sure I'm with you on this one, Carl.

That's a relief.

 

Evidently you didn't understand my point, though.

[robdalej]

Probably been said before but you may find that when you come to insure it the insurance company will insist on a recent survey, if itwas me I would be offering arfound 12k subject to survey. A friend of mine bought a springer 30 ft last year for 10 k, in reasonable nick, so 14 seems a bit high

[blackrose]

Not claiming any knowledge of current hull condition.Previous posts suggested that it is pointless getting a survey as the boat is only worth 14k.The point I was making was that if a survey did highlight the need for remedial work on the hull this cost could potentially represent a high proportion of the boat's total worth making it economically unwise to proceed.

 

Yes, I agree with that. If the OP wants the boat then a survey is more or less essential. However if the survey picks up significant hull thickness problems then I'd walk away. You've got to be prepared to lose your survey and slippage fees and end up without a boat.

 

I speak from the experience of someone who didn't walk away. The problem is that as a first time buyer (most prospective Springer owners are probably first time buyers), one may have just spent quite a lot of money on slippage and a survey and thus already feels involved and unwilling to swallow a financial loss of several hundred pounds.

 

Probably been said before but you may find that when you come to insure it the insurance company will insist on a recent survey, if itwas me I would be offering arfound 12k subject to survey. A friend of mine bought a springer 30 ft last year for 10 k, in reasonable nick, so 14 seems a bit high

 

Isn't it still possible to get 3rd party insurance without a survey?

 

I'm not suggesting that the OP purchases the boat without a survey, I just wondered.

Edited August 4, 2011 by blackrose

[Québec]

as well as Sullivan's 'Form follows' function, which became the byword of the Bauhaus movement amongst others, there's also the lovely Shaker principle:

"That which in itself has the highest use possesses the greatest beauty"

[carlt]

Isn't it still possible to get 3rd party insurance without a survey?

 

I'm not suggesting that the OP purchases the boat without a survey, I just wondered.

With Basic Boat Liability you don't even name the boat.

[sebrof]

That's a relief.

 

Evidently you didn't understand my point, though.

 

Evidently you don't like being disagreed with.

 

"Form follows function" is an alluring phrase, but meaningless in reality. The reason most modern architecture is so awful is that no money is spent on making buildings look beautiful.