Installing a morso burner

[Hannah and Jay]

Hi

We've reached the point of installing our morso solid fuel burner (plus back boiler) in our fit out. We need to know how far the burner should be placed from the stud wall (its going to be facing down the boat). i've tried searching the forum but my choice of search words is probably poor! a friends boat was badly damaged by fire last year due to a poor instalation and we really want to make it safe. Also what are peopke's opinions on what to protect the walls with? I've heard of master board and cement board, is one superior? And what is the availability of these materials?

Many thanks for any advice

Hannah

Edited July 18, 2011 by Hannah and Jay

[dor]

I would try the BSS site as they have issued guidelines for installation of SF stoves - I imagine it is there; I've only seen a printed version. This includes using insulated deckhead collars. Whilst their recommendations are not yet mandatory, it is worth looking at them.

[Ally]

Be aware of the new rules under the RCD for stove installations. Do you have the new Morso double skinned flue and chimney? If not, you need to be 1 and a half times the diameter of the flue away from anything unprotected, as a minimum. You may not be RCD'ing your boat, but the new regs are there for reasons.

 

Edit...not 1 and a half times sorry, it is 3 times the diameter to unprotected items, so 15" away for a 5" flu!!!!!!

Edited July 18, 2011 by Ally

[stuart]

I've heard of master board and cement board, is one superior? And what is the availability of these materials?

 

Both fairly similar, they are a non flamable/combustable board material, looks like a thick plasterboard. You can purchase straight from B&Q/Wickes etc. About £30 a sheet.

 

After which you just tile over the top of it.

 

 

I think you will be surprised how much space you need to leave behind/around a stove when following the relevant specifications. I doubt that a stove would still fit into a corner of the boat without being too introduing into the cabin space.

[Slim]

Wasn't there an article on this subject in either Canal Boat or Waterways world very recently?

[Ally]

What you should ideally be going by is BS 8511:2010 This gives the current regs for new installations, and includes hearth, flu and stove installation. The new insulated flu from Morso makes fitting much easier and a closer fit more practical, but bare in mind regs for hearths too....225mm front projection minimum and 150mm to each side, inless a high (non-combustible) lip is incorporated. Even angles for flu are now more regulated. It's now recommended that you have 600mm insulated chimney above the roof whilst moored also. Fireboard or the like should not be fixed to ply or wood unless there is an airgap of at least 10mm i think it is.

oh, sorry, i was wrong earlier, an uninsulated flu pipe now needs to be THREE TIMES THE DIAMETER of the flu from unprotected combustibles!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dor]

I believe they have backed down on the insulated flue, but still recommend an insulated collar and insulated chimney (and a long one at that!).

Makes sense as the flue probably gives out as much heat into the room as the stove itself.

[Ally]

I believe they have backed down on the insulated flue, but still recommend an insulated collar and insulated chimney (and a long one at that!).

Makes sense as the flue probably gives out as much heat into the room as the stove itself.

Unfortunately not the case, I have just checked it out and the reccomendation for insulated flu's still stands. You don't HAVE to use them, but if not then you need to go with the 3 times the diameter distance away bit, or have it well protected with an air gap.

[rjasmith]

Be aware of the new rules under the RCD for stove installations. Do you have the new Morso double skinned flue and chimney? If not, you need to be 1 and a half times the diameter of the flue away from anything unprotected, as a minimum. You may not be RCD'ing your boat, but the new regs are there for reasons.

 

Edit...not 1 and a half times sorry, it is 3 times the diameter to unprotected items, so 15" away for a 5" flu!!!!!!

 

I've also read your later post Ally and was glad to see your corrections to this one in there!

 

However there is one more! You are referring, I believe, to BS 8511 as "the new rules". This is a British Standard Code of Practice and has nothing to do with the RCD. The RCD is supported by a set of "harmonised ISO standards" and BS 8511 is not one of those. So far as I know there are no plans to incorporate it into the RCD ISOs so it remains a wholly British initiative at the moment. There is a move in ISO to update the RCD ISO 9094 on Fire Protection but this change is not related to SF stoves AFAIK and has yet to be issued.

 

Having said that, I believe BS 8511 is still an important document for anyone to try to follow when installing an SF stove in a boat.

 

Unfortunately it costs £140 to buy but your local library may be able to let you read it on their in house public computers or, in a rapidly dwindling number of counties, by accessing the county library website from your home pc (you need to be a library member). Finally, I've found recently that you can ask in your library to borrow the paper document on an inter library loan from the British Library. If they say you can't when you try it, be persistent, YOU CAN! I just have via my local library.

 

I believe it is difficult to precis what is in 8511 in just a few words on here because there are many variations of requirements in it depending on choices you make for your particular installation. You can't specify any particular clearance, flue arrangement, hearth type etc until you've decided which of the choices will suit you. One thing is probably important though, choose a stove built and tested to BS 13240 - not all of them are and if yours isn't, it may be difficult to comply with BS 8511!

 

As for the dreaded insulated flue/collar/chimney scene, I believe Chilli Penguin and Morso now do something, based on adaptations of commercial flue sections made for buildings. I have recently however seen a bespoke system that IMHO is much better and really looks like a trad boat collar/chimney. I was hoping to put details on here about them but the little outfit that has developed them has yet to send me some pictures as they promised (they don't use the i/net!). When I get their info I'll put it on here somewhere.

 

Finally, I understand that the BSS hopes to come out with a pictorial guide to BS 8511, in fact I thought they already had but I can't find it on their website yet.

 

Richard

[Ally]

I attended a course recently on BS8511, and as new build builders, we are fitting to that standard...in all good intention, we can do nothing else.

Morso do a full flu kit for straight or angled, Chilli penguin produce a flu that is insulated just below the roof level, but not below that, however they do agree that the morso flu can be used with their stoves, and in our case have helpfully made a collar to fit between their stove and morso's flu.

To my mind once these standards are in, they should be followed.

We were given a pictorial guide to it, but I am not sure it has, as yet, been published.

[Hannah and Jay]

Right! Lots of stuff to check out, I'll have a look at the BSS stuff first and go from there. We currently have a single skinned flu so we've got some measuring to do...

[rjasmith]

Right! Lots of stuff to check out, I'll have a look at the BSS stuff first and go from there. We currently have a single skinned flu so we've got some measuring to do...

 

I'm afraid there is not a great deal of detail in the main BSS guide on actual stove installation requirements and thanks to some advice I've just had from Rob McLean of BSS I now know that their proposed separate pictorial guide on stoves may be based on one recently issued by Soliftec on their website here.

 

BSS have yet to finalise their version though so it isn't available yet.

 

Don't worry about your single skinned flue pipe. The important words are that the distance from it to combustibles must be three times diameter if they are unprotected, if you protect them from it all the way up in the same way as prescribed for the stove itself then the clearances can be the same as those for the stove (ie generally much less than 3 x flue dia). The only difficulty I have is with the requirement for the special collar with the 150mm insulated flue section below the roof. I've only seen one of these that I like the look of so far but maybe others just as good will come along in time. I hope to put up some photos of the one I've seen in a day or so in case it helps.

 

Richard

[Ally]

ah yes, that's the pictorial guide we were given! useful!

[rjasmith]

Right! Lots of stuff to check out, I'll have a look at the BSS stuff first and go from there. We currently have a single skinned flu so we've got some measuring to do...

 

Just thought I'd add an answer to your original request for info on non combustible board materials. I'm going to use something called Super Isol for the stove back and flue protection. This is a very low thermal conductivity calcium silicate board and is only available in a 25mm thickness. It meets the lowest conductivity figure given in the BS 8511 tables and therefore allows the smallest clearances between stove and combustibles (65mm in my case where the stove is set at an angle).

 

This stuff is available from John Opies here under the trade name of Skamolex Blue. There may be other outlets but I haven't researched them. Opies also sell a vermiculite board called Skamolex Plain which I will be using as a hearth because it has very high crush resistance able to carry the weight of the stove. It is also the same stuff that Arada use to make their stove "fire bricks" from so I'll be making new ones out of my Skamolex offcuts when the time comes to replace them!

 

(NB my stove is compliant with the BS 13240 test limiting temp rise on the hearth surface below it to less than 100 deg C so I can use a 12mm thick non combustible hearth over a wooden floor).

 

Richard

[Hannah and Jay]

Just thought I'd add an answer to your original request for info on non combustible board materials. I'm going to use something called Super Isol for the stove back and flue protection. This is a very low thermal conductivity calcium silicate board and is only available in a 25mm thickness. It meets the lowest conductivity figure given in the BS 8511 tables and therefore allows the smallest clearances between stove and combustibles (65mm in my case where the stove is set at an angle).

 

 

 

Sounds like a good option for us as three times the diameter of our flu would mean 15 odd inches away from the wall..

 

And as for the BSS info, well there's buggar all on there about how far away a stove should be from a wall. I've heard the figure of 4" touted about as as e have no manufacturers instructions to go on I'm still a bit unsure

[rjasmith]

Sounds like a good option for us as three times the diameter of our flu would mean 15 odd inches away from the wall..

 

And as for the BSS info, well there's buggar all on there about how far away a stove should be from a wall. I've heard the figure of 4" touted about as as e have no manufacturers instructions to go on I'm still a bit unsure

 

Have you perhaps got a little confused with all these "BS" initials? It's easily done! I said in an earlier post (it was #12) that there wasn't any detail on the BSS (Boat Safety Scheme) about stove installation techniques.

 

The info you need is in a BS (British Standard) which is nothing to do with the Boat Safety Scheme. As a BS is not an easy document to get hold of (read another earlier post of mine about that!) you could have a look at the Soliftec pictorial guide to it via the link I put up (also in post #12).

 

The Boat Safety Scheme people are probably going to produce their own pictorial guide but it's still being worked up. The main BSS Guide book has been around a long time whereas the new BS 8511 standard is only about a year old.

 

Unfortunately it isn't simply a case of quoting a single stove/wall clearance for all situations. It all depends on lots of variables like the orientation of the stove, the type of material used for protection, the spec for the stove etc. Manufacturers instructions are often no use in a boat situation either as they are invariably written for installation in buildings where compliance with Building Regs is needed.

 

To get the full picture you really do need to read the standard but using the Soliftec guide is a good start.

 

Is your stove CE marked on a plate that states it has been built in accordance with BS 13240? That's quite important if you want also to comply with BS 8511!

 

Hope this helps a bit more!

 

Richard

[rjasmith]

Oh Silly me!!

 

Of course it's a Morso (presumably a Squirrel but it doesn't matter). They are all built/tested to BS 13240 so no probs there!

 

If you did want a set of Manufs Instrucs for it surely they must be downloadable from a website somewhere - have you tried a quick Google?

 

Richard

[WotEver]

If you did want a set of Manufs Instrucs for it surely they must be downloadable from a website somewhere - have you tried a quick Google?

There is some guidance here: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stove-chimney-documentation/Morso-squirrel-installation.pdf

 

Maybe the wrong stove though.

 

Tony

[Ally]

I am sure Morso would send you out some instructions if you ask them, and perhaps specific boat fitting safety guide too? They hosted the boat stove fitting course I attended and are very knowledgeable.

[Hannah and Jay]

Have you perhaps got a little confused with all these "BS" initials? It's easily done! I said in an earlier post (it was #12) that there wasn't any detail on the BSS (Boat Safety Scheme) about stove installation techniques.The info you need is in a BS (British Standard) which is nothing to do with the Boat Safety Scheme. As a BS is not an easy document to get hold of (read another earlier post of mine about that!) you could have a look at the Soliftec pictorial guide to it via the link I put up (also in post #12).The Boat Safety Scheme people are probably going to produce their own pictorial guide but it's still being worked up. The main BSS Guide book has been around a long time whereas the new BS 8511 standard is only about a year old.Unfortunately it isn't simply a case of quoting a single stove/wall clearance for all situations. It all depends on lots of variables like the orientation of the stove, the type of material used for protection, the spec for the stove etc. Manufacturers instructions are often no use in a boat situation either as they are invariably written for installation in buildings where compliance with Building Regs is needed. To get the full picture you really do need to read the standard but using the Soliftec guide is a good start.Is your stove CE marked on a plate that states it has been built in accordance with BS 13240? That's quite important if you want also to comply with BS 8511! Hope this helps a bit more! Richard

 

Isn't it odd that these safety standards are so trixy to get hold of! The Soliftec guide is useful, thanks

 

There is some guidance here: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/stove-chimney-documentation/Morso-squirrel-installation.pdf

 

Maybe the wrong stove though.

 

Tony

 

The guide is realy quite helpful. I'll have to check out ours to see if has a "data sheet" on the back of it. Cheers

[RobinJ]

Hi

We've reached the point of installing our morso solid fuel burner (plus back boiler) in our fit out. We need to know how far the burner should be placed from the stud wall (its going to be facing down the boat). i've tried searching the forum but my choice of search words is probably poor! a friends boat was badly damaged by fire last year due to a poor instalation and we really want to make it safe. Also what are peopke's opinions on what to protect the walls with? I've heard of master board and cement board, is one superior? And what is the availability of these materials?

Just to stick a bit in!

When I fitted a stove it came with insturctions on reccomended minumum spacing etc,, to my suprise it stated 60mm (I checked it was 60mm not 60cm), needless to say the wood did not survive very long.

Many of the specifications are probably designed for non combustible material (such as plasterboard)? A good idea might be to have a reflective material, but I would suggest there must be some non combustible material to protect the battens etc. There was some stuff used for shower cubicles Aquapanel or something of the sort?

[rjasmith]

Just to stick a bit in!

When I fitted a stove it came with insturctions on reccomended minumum spacing etc,, to my suprise it stated 60mm (I checked it was 60mm not 60cm), needless to say the wood did not survive very long.

Many of the specifications are probably designed for non combustible material (such as plasterboard)? A good idea might be to have a reflective material, but I would suggest there must be some non combustible material to protect the battens etc. There was some stuff used for shower cubicles Aquapanel or something of the sort?

 

Are you sure your instructions were giving the spacing from the stove to combustible materials? I suspect they were talking about non combustible items eg the masonry sides of a fireplace etc because as I've said earlier most stove manufacturers installation intructions are related to household situations and the Building Regulations. There are few of them that have any info about installation in a boat. Only the more enlightened makers of smaller stoves seem to understand that people may buy them to use on a boat.

 

This situation is slowly changing since the publication of BS 8511 and it amuses me that even MachineMart who sell the cheap Chinese stoves have a warning reference to it on virtually every one of their stove adverts now!

 

The generally held view on BS 8511 is that although it is a Code of Practice and not mandatory and the BSS Guide does not yet quote it, insurance companies will undoubtedly be aware of it and making a claim for fire damage to a non compliant new installation may become difficult.

 

At least the downloadable pictorial guide to BS 8511 from Soliftec is an easy way of discovering the basic requirements but getting a loan of the full document via your local library is the best way IMHO. As standards go it's really quite readable!

 

Richard

[luctor et emergo]

I wonder what the instalation notes for the Epping said, when they were fitted in trad boatman cabins...

 

 

 

And not a fire extinghiser in site, too. (I need three, in my 14' cabin... )

 

how did they survive??

 

[deletedaccount]

I wonder what the instalation notes for the Epping said, when they were fitted in trad boatman cabins...

 

 

 

And not a fire extinghiser in site, too. (I need three, in my 14' cabin... )

 

how did they survive??

 

 

Number of fire extinguishers are dependant on BOAT length not cabin length? heh.

[Richard T]

We are about to install a solid fuel stove on Tyto Alba - a Morso 1416. I'm looking for suppliers of calcium silicate board to satisfy the Solfitec guidelines for the hearth and wall protection. This gives a thickness of 25mm. Promat make Supalux board 25mm thick but it is difficult to source - Sheffield Insulations our local supplier do not carry it as a standard product their price is over £200 plus vat and carriage for a 1200x2400mm sheet. I will get prices from John Opies as mentioned above. Are there any alternatives? Is it OK to use 2 sheets of 12mm to get to 24mm total? By increasing the air gap can you reduce the thickness of board?

Vitcas manufacture and sell a vermiculite board which appears to satisfy the requirements see link Has anyone used this? It is not really any cheaper than Supalux as I will need 5 sheets which is £292

Moving on who are suppliers of insulated flues at reasonable prices?