Navigation lights

[bizzard]

Almost all NB and WB'S have incorrect nav lights if any at all ie wrong size,positioned wrongly and no or wrong cut off angles,so whoever fitted them has no idea whatsoever of there requirements or use.Not required on canals i know but they are on navigations ie Lee and Stort and NE navigations and i think upper Thames after dark.

So in that case in my mind its safer to have none at all.

If anything looms out of the darkness bigger than you, just furiously flash a torch at,it will be understood much easier than incorrect nav lights, incredibly confusing.And don't forget that the Helmsman or navigator on that vessel might be colour blind anyway

,As indeed you might be.Causing an irreversible collision.

Regards bizzard

[Biggles]

If I remember rightly the usual and wrong nav lights fitted are good for 2 mile in a straight line. Now in open waters this is easily achieved but on a canal or indeed most rivers this is never going to happen. IMO the smaller nav lights will aid the positioning of a NB better than none in their normal surroundings.

 

The bigger ones are much bigger and look rubbish on a NB and they are about 3 times the price.

[bizzard]

If I remember rightly the usual and wrong nav lights fitted are good for 2 mile in a straight line. Now in open waters this is easily achieved but on a canal or indeed most rivers this is never going to happen. IMO the smaller nav lights will aid the positioning of a NB better than none in their normal surroundings.

 

The bigger ones are much bigger and look rubbish on a NB and they are about 3 times the price.

But its an international requirement whatever water your on canals apart, for them to be correct in every way. Blow the look of your boat,its about safety.Supposing the skipper of the QM2 said remove those nav lights they're spoiling the look of the ship.Without the correct cut off angles you've no idea of the precise course of the other vessel.

I reckon that if you are in collision with another vessel with correct lights,you would without doubt be held responsible.

Take em off and do the torch flashing its safer. bizzard

[sharpness]

And don't forget that the Helmsman or navigator on that vessel might be colour blind anyway

Nearly 40 years ago I was booted out of the Merchant Navy medically unfit as I couldnt pass the eyesight test when I took my 2nd Mates ticket. They said I had gone colour blind, has it changed now then?

Better not tell the wife, she might think I want to go back.

 

Steve

[steelaway]

But its an international requirement whatever water your on canals apart, for them to be correct in every way. Blow the look of your boat,its about safety.Supposing the skipper of the QM2 said remove those nav lights they're spoiling the look of the ship.Without the correct cut off angles you've no idea of the precise course of the other vessel.

I reckon that if you are in collision with another vessel with correct lights,you would without doubt be held responsible.

Take em off and do the torch flashing its safer. bizzard

 

 

I'll take my chances of meeting the QM2 on the G.U.

 

 

Alex

[NB Willawaw]

They have now relaxed the eyesight test in the British Merchant Navy (whats left of it).

 

When I was 18, they wanted fighter pilot vision without spectacles, so I was unable to become a navigator in the MN.

 

They asked me if I were colour blind and I said no, so ended up as a Radio Officer instead.

 

Now, they wear glasses without any problem.

 

If you can't tell a green sidelight from a red, then it could be a bit of a problem as at night, ships of all sizes are navigated around each other based on some very simple collision regulations based on aspects.

 

There aren't many places in the UK where navigation lights are needed on a narrowboat (and then only at night or in fog/mist) - most canal users don't understand them anyway.

 

Nearly 40 years ago I was booted out of the Merchant Navy medically unfit as I couldnt pass the eyesight test when I took my 2nd Mates ticket. They said I had gone colour blind, has it changed now then?

Better not tell the wife, she might think I want to go back.

 

Steve

[howardang]

They have now relaxed the eyesight test in the British Merchant Navy (whats left of it).

 

When I was 18, they wanted fighter pilot vision without spectacles, so I was unable to become a navigator in the MN.

 

They asked me if I were colour blind and I said no, so ended up as a Radio Officer instead.

 

Now, they wear glasses without any problem.

 

If you can't tell a green sidelight from a red, then it could be a bit of a problem as at night, ships of all sizes are navigated around each other based on some very simple collision regulations based on aspects.

 

There aren't many places in the UK where navigation lights are needed on a narrowboat (and then only at night or in fog/mist) - most canal users don't understand them anyway.

 

Deck officer candidates still have to pass the colour blindness test for obvious reasons.

 

Howard

[bizzard]

Nearly 40 years ago I was booted out of the Merchant Navy medically unfit as I couldnt pass the eyesight test when I took my 2nd Mates ticket. They said I had gone colour blind, has it changed now then?

Better not tell the wife, she might think I want to go back.

 

Steve

Although a colour blind person see's certain colours as different colours than is normal i'm told they do know that the colours they see represent the colours they really are.

A colour blind paint mixer at Homebase told me that. Must be true. (Traffic lights).

bizzard

[PhilR]

Almost all NB and WB'S have incorrect nav lights if any at all ie wrong size,positioned wrongly and no or wrong cut off angles,so whoever fitted them has no idea whatsoever of there requirements or use.Not required on canals i know but they are on navigations ie Lee and Stort and NE navigations and i think upper Thames after dark.

So in that case in my mind its safer to have none at all.

If anything looms out of the darkness bigger than you, just furiously flash a torch at,it will be understood much easier than incorrect nav lights, incredibly confusing.And don't forget that the Helmsman or navigator on that vessel might be colour blind anyway

,As indeed you might be.Causing an irreversible collision.

Regards bizzard

 

Interesting thread. But I am not really sure what your point is. Do you do a lot of night boating? Are you colour blind? Are you suggesting that people should have no nav lights on the Lee and Stort when boating at night?

 

Phil

(nb Confused)

[bizzard]

I'll take my chances of meeting the QM2 on the G.U.

 

 

Alex

Risky.

Funnily enough,way back i think in 1995 the IWA boat festival at Waltham Abbey was on,some boats were going down the River Stort to it in the dark and two were stopped at i think Sheering Mill lock,one without nav lights was asked to moor up until daylight and one warned for having incorrect lights.

Not joking anymore,that is true,i think they were the riverpolice. bizzard

[blodger]

I think some of the navigation light offerings from chandlers are actually quite good as to the correct arc of visibility etc; the problem is how people fit them mostly

[NB Willawaw]

It wasn't the rescue service that you see sometimes with a 14ft boat and a blue light on the top, was it ??

 

I see them sometimes (usually two boats following each other) and kill myself laughing - it would only take them a day to get to you if you were in distress.

 

I've cruised the L+S at night both with and without nav lights. You rarely see another boat moving.

 

 

Risky.

Funnily enough,way back i think in 1995 the IWA boat festival at Waltham Abbey was on,some boats were going down the River Stort to it in the dark and two were stopped at i think Sheering Mill lock,one without nav lights was asked to moor up until daylight and one warned for having incorrect lights.

Not joking anymore,that is true,i think they were the riverpolice. bizzard

[PhilR]

I think some of the navigation light offerings from chandlers are actually quite good as to the correct arc of visibility etc; the problem is how people fit them mostly

 

I agree. And hopefully, people who might intend to use them also understand the rules/regs etc.

[alan_fincher]

Almost all NB and WB'S have incorrect nav lights if any at all ie wrong size,positioned wrongly and no or wrong cut off angles,so whoever fitted them has no idea whatsoever of there requirements or use.Not required on canals i know but they are on navigations ie Lee and Stort and NE navigations and i think upper Thames after dark.

 

Your source for this is ?

 

I don't believe that's right, if the boat is classed as a narrow boat.

 

The BW bye-laws make very explicit exclusions for narrow boats.

[bizzard]

Interesting thread. But I am not really sure what your point is. Do you do a lot of night boating? Are you colour blind? Are you suggesting that people should have no nav lights on the Lee and Stort when boating at night?

 

Phil

(nb Confused)

I did do,taught sailing in my spare time through the 1970's.

All i'm saying is if your going to put them on why not do it properly not just for cosmetic reasons ''nice colours with a bit of chrome'' 2 trad boats here have them on the sides of the back cabin.Its rare to see both lights together from dead ahead,some huge cut off area. My post was all a bit of a serious joke.regret starting it. bizzard

[PhilR]

I did do,taught sailing in my spare time through the 1970's.

All i'm saying is if your going to put them on why not do it properly not just for cosmetic reasons ''nice colours with a bit of chrome'' 2 trad boats here have them on the sides of the back cabin.Its rare to see both lights together from dead ahead,some huge cut off area. My post was all a bit of a serious joke.regret starting it. bizzard

 

The rules for nav lights is fairly obvious for serious sailors - but you have probably chosen the wrong forum to air your views?

[NB Willawaw]

No, you're right - if you are going to do it, then its best to comply as best you can within the structural restrictions of the boat type.

 

We've cruised on commercial waterways early in the morning to catch the tide when its been a bit misty and have switched the steaming, stern and sidelights on.

 

I did do,taught sailing in my spare time through the 1970's.

All i'm saying is if your going to put them on why not do it properly not just for cosmetic reasons ''nice colours with a bit of chrome'' 2 trad boats here have them on the sides of the back cabin.Its rare to see both lights together from dead ahead,some huge cut off area. My post was all a bit of a serious joke.regret starting it. bizzard

[bizzard]

I agree. And hopefully, people who might intend to use them also understand the rules/regs etc.

Hooray someone who understands them at last. My only allie. bizzard

 

Interesting thread. But I am not really sure what your point is. Do you do a lot of night boating? Are you colour blind? Are you suggesting that people should have no nav lights on the Lee and Stort when boating at night?

 

Phil

(nb Confused)

No i said two boats were stopped at night by river police for no and incorrect nav lights.

They are required on navigations.

[bizzard]

No, you're right - if you are going to do it, then its best to comply as best you can within the structural restrictions of the boat type.

 

We've cruised on commercial waterways early in the morning to catch the tide when its been a bit misty and have switched the steaming, stern and sidelights on.

Thanks Mark. Thats two backing me up.

Regards bizzard.

[Biggles]

Interesting thread. But I am not really sure what your point is. Do you do a lot of night boating? Are you colour blind? Are you suggesting that people should have no nav lights on the Lee and Stort when boating at night?

 

Phil

(nb Confused)

 

From what I've read of late no one moves very much on the Lee anyway. Breaking nav light regs is the least of their transgressions.

[alan_fincher]

They are required on navigations.

 

I repeat - I believe there is no such requirement on BW controlled navigations like (for example) the Lee and Stort for narrow boats.

 

Instead of you just repeating the same statement, without telling us your source for it, I challenge you again to tell us why you think they are required.

 

Thanks Mark. Thats two backing me up.

 

There's a big difference between saying that if they are fitted they should be correct, and saying they must be fitted.

 

I still believe you are incorrect on the latter point.

 

Again I ask you to give us the BW document that overides the exemption that is in the bye-laws. I think you may struggle!

[Ray T]

I have posted a similar picture to this before and told my navigation lights look "iffy"

 

The cut off form the 3/4 rear view is probably restricted but without putting the lights on the bow or the roof it is the best compromise I can manage.

 

At least from the forward aspect round to beam it is obvious which direction the boat is travelling.

 

In a way the lights are superfluous as I never intend taking CF to sea The Thames at some date in the future perhaps.

 

I have travelled the odd time at night and if they aid visibility that helps even if they are not legally required on "the cut".

 

Edited July 10, 2011 by Ray T

[howardang]

I have posted a similar picture to this before and told my navigation lights look "iffy"

 

The cut off form the 3/4 rear view is probably restricted but without putting the lights on the bow or the roof it is the best compromise I can manage.

 

At least from the forward aspect round to beam it is obvious which direction the boat is travelling.

 

In a way the lights are superfluous as I never intend taking CF to sea The Thames at some date in the future perhaps.

 

I have travelled the odd time at night and if they aid visibility that helps even if they are not legally required on "the cut".

 

As you have them fitted they are very nice red and green lights but they are not acting as navigation lights. They should be visible 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on their respective sides.

 

One way round it would be to mount them on a detachable bracket above the level of the cratch or on a small detachable mast.

 

Howard

[Robin2]

The rules on the required arcs of visibility for nav lights are fairly straightforward. I think that you would probably have to have the lights on the roof of a narrowboat clear of the obstruction of the long narrow cabin in order to comply. That would not be too difficult to achieve and the older style lights (about 6" tall) would probably look good.

 

However ... in reality ...

 

Most large vessels have so much domestic lighting that it is virtually impossible to see the nav lights. Fishing vessels usually have blinding floodlights. Inshore, in conditions where a narrowboat is most likely to meet a sea-going vessel, the shore-side lights usually prevent the identification of nav lights - including the stationary flashing channel marker lights.

 

IMO the only effective warning lights are stobes. Look in the sky any night and you can't fail to see aircraft even if you are looking for them. If you want someone on another ship to see you and not crash into you IMO fit a strobe.

 

Of course stobes are illegal under the marine regs. When I suggested that the regulations should be changed on another boating forum a few years ago (in the wake of a small yacht being run down by a ship) I was amazed at the number of people who objected simply because the existing regulations had been drawn up by "experts".

[howardang]

The rules on the required arcs of visibility for nav lights are fairly straightforward. I think that you would probably have to have the lights on the roof of a narrowboat clear of the obstruction of the long narrow cabin in order to comply. That would not be too difficult to achieve and the older style lights (about 6" tall) would probably look good.

 

However ... in reality ...

 

Most large vessels have so much domestic lighting that it is virtually impossible to see the nav lights. Fishing vessels usually have blinding floodlights. Inshore, in conditions where a narrowboat is most likely to meet a sea-going vessel, the shore-side lights usually prevent the identification of nav lights - including the stationary flashing channel marker lights.

 

IMO the only effective warning lights are stobes. Look in the sky any night and you can't fail to see aircraft even if you are looking for them. If you want someone on another ship to see you and not crash into you IMO fit a strobe.

 

Of course stobes are illegal under the marine regs. When I suggested that the regulations should be changed on another boating forum a few years ago (in the wake of a small yacht being run down by a ship) I was amazed at the number of people who objected simply because the existing regulations had been drawn up by "experts".

 

I think you are over exaggerating the difficulty of identifying nav lights against shore lights and certainly buoy lights are not as difficult to see as you suggest.

 

Strobes are undoubtedly good at attracting attention. The one thing they don't do is show aspect which is why the existing lights are as they are (and indeed why aircraft also show sidelights.) Some times the "experts" might just get it right

 

Howard