Working Boat-Pros and Cons

[FadeToScarlet]

Some might even say that if you're approaching this in such a rational fashion as to weigh up pros and cons, if it's not an all-consuming passion, then you're not bonkers enough for one!

[Whitewater]

Some might even say that if you're approaching this in such a rational fashion as to weigh up pros and cons, if it's not an all-consuming passion, then you're not bonkers enough for one!

I am think i am bonkers just looking at one to buy.

 

Thank you all for your comments. I am off to look at the boat again tomorrow.

[stagedamager]

In many cases the steering is a pro. Grand Unions (the only boats I have any real experience of) steer miles better than even the best modern boat I've tried.

 

 

Survey? What survey?

 

Leaky rivets can be welded up. If it's already got em, either they're weeping so slightly it's not urgent, or it'll have sunk. So don't worry about them.

 

Some of the Towns i have steered were a bit of a pig to steer, mind you it was windy!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, i am answering the OP in terms of Pros and cons, in my own head in an ideal and correct world. if I had the money, would i get a survey? probably not, common sense would dictate i should but in reality, i guess, i would jump in head first if the right boat came along.........

Now, any one got a nice motor i can have please, or butty?

Regards

Dan

[dove]

 

Leaky rivets can be welded up. If it's already got em, either they're weeping so slightly it's not urgent, or it'll have sunk. So don't worry about them.

 

Leaky rivets shouldn't be welded up, this stress relieves them and they stop doing what they are suppose to do. That is holding two or three plates or knees together. If doubt replace it, it's not difficult.

 

Andrew

[alan_fincher]

In many cases the steering is a pro. Grand Unions (the only boats I have any real experience of) steer miles better than even the best modern boat I've tried.

Would you like to have a wrestle with Sickle, and see if you still feel the same?

 

I've steered full length "Towns" many moons ago, and found them fine.

 

I steered 40 foot cut Middle Northwich boats, converted to hire boats, and found them some of the sweetest handling around.

 

So why am I always fighting with Sickle?

 

Coming up here on Chalice we encountered Ian Tyler as one of two BW men on duty at "Three Locks". Ian is Sickles former "skipper", so I said to him.....

 

"I really haven't got the hang of her yet, Ian, I think I need you you give me some lessons - it doesn't matter what I do, every time I try to stop in a straight line, the bow swings hard to the left"

 

I was hoping for some words of wisdom from someone who had handled her for years....

 

Ian's reply ??

 

"Yes, she does that!"

 

So what's the difference from the hire cruiser conversions I steerred in the 1970s ? I think it's the bloody great 3 pot Lister, probably the wrong reduction of the gearbox (?). and a very meaty prop on a boat only 40 foot long.

[Whitewater]

Would you like to have a wrestle with Sickle, and see if you still feel the same?

 

I've steered full length "Towns" many moons ago, and found them fine.

 

I steered 40 foot cut Middle Northwich boats, converted to hire boats, and found them some of the sweetest handling around.

 

So why am I always fighting with Sickle?

 

Coming up here on Chalice we encountered Ian Tyler as one of two BW men on duty at "Three Locks". Ian is Sickles former "skipper", so I said to him.....

 

"I really haven't got the hang of her yet, Ian, I think I need you you give me some lessons - it doesn't matter what I do, every time I try to stop in a straight line, the bow swings hard to the left"

 

I was hoping for some words of wisdom from someone who had handled her for years....

 

Ian's reply ??

 

"Yes, she does that!"

 

So what's the difference from the hire cruiser conversions I steerred in the 1970s ? I think it's the bloody great 3 pot Lister, probably the wrong reduction of the gearbox (?). and a very meaty prop on a boat only 40 foot long.

Thats a blast from the past, as I use to work with Ian(Nobby)I tried once to steer Sickle with a barge and I managed to hit Bulbourne bridge, surprisingly after that I was never allowed to steer her again, I was left on the back of the barge.

[Derek R.]

Nothing 'wrong' with the drive train, the steerer needs more understanding. It's part of the learning curve - stop wrestling with her, and learn her ways. Understanding is all. Doubtless Ian knew, and took it for granted. He's also quite capable of clouting things too - I can vouch for that!!

 

Short boat with steeply pitched prop. The 'paddle wheel' effect going astern will be greater due to prop pitch and the short length with less hull to bite the water will ensure party tricks. TYCHO is much the same - you won't stop in a straight line unless you take her out of gear and stop using the rudder alone - well, you'll come to a near stop. With the front up in the air doesn't help a lot, more hull in the water does to some extent. Modern boats in general have less if any reduction on the gearbox, and spin props at higher speeds needing less pitch, so to some extent less 'paddle wheel' effect.

 

Just slow her down steady in advance, then push the tiller over 'the other way' before going astern to counter some of the effect. This will work some of the time, only because the depth - or lack of - will also have an effect on where she will go. On fast tickover you should be able to use the 'paddle wheel' effect to turn in your own length. Easy. Keeping her straight when stopping . . .

 

If I left the tiller to nose in the engine'ole on YARMOUTH, she'd go straight and true. TYCHO will be up the bank. Step along the gunnel and she rolls - the tiller goes over - and off she goes! Putting the string on is essential for that.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Derek R.

[MtB]

Greenlaw, Fern, Juno, Gemini, Stafford? I think those 5 plus Baldock are the only ones currently for sale that fit the bill.

 

A remarkable number of historic motors seem to be on the market at the moment. And I have another for the list - I believe Stirling is (or was) on the market too. So now we have

 

Greenlaw

Fern

Juno

Gemini

Stafford(?)

Baldock

Stirling

Dover

 

 

And I was wondering about starting a thread attempting to list all historic motor boats currently on the market anyway. If we widen the criteria to 'any' historic motor then we can add Southern Cross, Fenny, Mountbatten/Jellicoe (being sold as a pair). And the wooden motors Ian and Dove.

 

Any more anyone?

 

Mike

[stagedamager]

is Auriga still for sale?

[alan_fincher]

And I was wondering about starting a thread attempting to list all historic motor boats currently on the market anyway. If we widen the criteria to 'any' historic motor then we can add Southern Cross, Fenny, Mountbatten/Jellicoe (being sold as a pair). And the wooden motors Ian and Dove.

 

Any more anyone?

 

Mike

Sextans.

 

Is Stafford really for sale ? For some reason it has remained on "the Duck" for several years since it was first put up for sale, I think.

 

But according to "the Duck" Sickle is still available! I can assure you she most certainly is not!

[Hairy-Neil]

- it doesn't matter what I do, every time I try to stop in a straight line, the bow swings hard to the left"

 

 

BW's heritage boat, 'Swift' was like this. I mastered it by steering to the right slightly before/as you hold back....

[MtB]

Sextans.

 

Is Stafford really for sale ? For some reason it has remained on "the Duck" for several years since it was first put up for sale, I think.

 

But according to "the Duck" Sickle is still available! I can assure you she most certainly is not!

 

 

I only put Stafford(?) on the list because FadeToScarlet had it on his. If the duck advert is that old it is reasonable to remove it again I think, given the new top was added in 2008 according to HNBOC so probably added by the new owner. Unless anyone here knows otherwise?

 

And I see Matt Parrott lists Darley & Alperton as for sale as a pair on his working boats site, but this might also be very out of date as he also lists Themis, sold AGES ago to a forum member and deconverted since, I believe.

 

Sextans is also for sale now?? Lovely boat! Is there an advert or have you heard this on the grapevine? Probably more than I can afford anyway.... :-(

[Hairy-Neil]

Sextans.

 

But according to "the Duck" Sickle is still available! I can assure you she most certainly is not!

 

Never's a long time, everything has a price.....

 

I would love to own Sextans....

[MtB]

(Edited to remove duplicate post)

Edited June 2, 2011 by Mike the Boilerman

[Derek R.]

(snip)

And I was wondering about starting a thread attempting to list all historic motor boats currently on the market anyway.

(snip)

 

I think you would need to be a fly on many walls to catch all that goes on un-advertised. A fruitless task. Much can be on who knows what, and whether you might be a suitable candidate for purchase, but then again, money always talks loudest.

 

PS SEXTANS Sold.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Derek R.

[Hairy-Neil]

I only put Stafford(?) on the list because FadeToScarlet had it on his. If the duck advert is that old it is reasonable to remove it again I think, given the new top was added in 2008 according to HNBOC so probably added by the new owner. Unless anyone here knows otherwise?

 

 

IIRC, 'Stafford' was restored in Poland, including full length steel conversion, whilst owned by Malcolm Burge.

[RLWP]

A remarkable number of historic motors seem to be on the market at the moment. And I have another for the list - I believe Stirling is (or was) on the market too. So now we have

 

Greenlaw

Fern

Juno

Gemini

Stafford(?)

Baldock

Stirling

Dover

 

 

And I was wondering about starting a thread attempting to list all historic motor boats currently on the market anyway. If we widen the criteria to 'any' historic motor then we can add Southern Cross, Fenny, Mountbatten/Jellicoe (being sold as a pair). And the wooden motors Ian and Dove.

 

Any more anyone?

 

Mike

 

Where is Dove advertised please?

 

Richard

[MtB]

I think you would need to be a fly on many walls to catch all that goes on un-advertised. A fruitless task. Much can be on who knows what, and whether you might be a suitable candidate for purchase, but then again, money always talks loudest.

 

PS SEXTANS Sold.

 

 

Yes I should have said list all the historic motors advertised for sale.

 

I fully understand your point about who you know, and about being a suitable candidate. If I was selling Sextans I'd have been more concerned with these factors than the money. Easy to say that sitting here though!

 

Mike

 

Where is Dove advertised please?

 

Richard

 

Jem Bates website

 

http://www.batesboatyard.co.uk/Dove.htm

 

Mike

[Laurence Hogg]

There are few "cons" in owning a working boat. As previously mentioned they hold their value better than any other sort of narrowboat and you own part of the waterways history. However this is 2011 and some things have changed, today if you are regulary boating urban canals a weedhatch is a sensible mod to do, whats in the canal today isnt so easily broken with a shaft in a bridgehole (strapping etc) and we have found the weedhatch improves our experiences vastly. The only other "con" is down to the fact that many modern boat owners do not appreciate your draft and expect you to "pull over" as their 1ft 6" drafted tin box belts towards you with a breaking wash, other than that costs more or less level out with those of maintaining a old steel hull. A safe investment if purchased at a sensible price.

As for BW assessing the boat for discount, I doubt there is any staff left in the offices who know anything about working boats who could remotely appreciate what is real, original, poor or a fake. I for one would love to test the knowledge of the so called "Head of boating", one Sally Ash. . . . .. .. .. ..........

[RLWP]

 

Jem Bates website

 

http://www.batesboatyard.co.uk/Dove.htm

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike. She makes Ian look like a real bargain

 

DOVE - £35 000 - Full length S&CCCo Ltd Motor - National dm2

Needs the remaining bottom replacing and would be nice to put a new counter block on extending the back cabin back towards the back of the boat. Has a national that we are working on at the moment. We would only be passing this boat on with the bottom/ keelson and chine plank replaced where necessary for approximately £35 000. I am obliged to make sure that this boat only leaves our care with the new bottom.

 

Richard

[Derek R.]

(snip)

I for one would love to test the knowledge of the so called "Head of boating", one Sally Ash. . . . .. .. .. ..........

 

Amen to that!

[alan_fincher]

Sextans is also for sale now?? Lovely boat! Is there an advert or have you heard this on the grapevine? Probably more than I can afford anyway.... :-(

 

PS SEXTANS Sold.

 

Fair enough, but for Mike's benefit was fully advertised in latest HNBOC magazine.

 

Not sure what I feel about Sextans, to be honest.....

 

Like Sickle it was cut to 40 feet when only 6 or 7 years old, and had spent the vast majority of it's life as a 40 foot boat, so in a way that's whrere I see it's history as being.

 

Somehow adding 10 feet to it seems a shame to me, even if it is, (as I understand it), finding a good home for 10 feet of hull cut from another Middle Northwich boat.

 

I echo the comment about boats not being actively advertised. Our first thoughts on buying an old boat related to a tip off about a boat not actively being marketed, (but almost certainly still for sale, eventually). (See our blog).

 

I also understand that a forum member has recently bought Bison, but I was unaware of it being for sale.

[Hairy-Neil]

 

 

Somehow adding 10 feet to it seems a shame to me, even if it is, (as I understand it), finding a good home for 10 feet of hull cut from another Middle Northwich boat.

 

 

 

It's going backwards too....

[Chertsey]

Would you like to have a wrestle with Sickle, and see if you still feel the same?

Yes please!

 

 

 

Short boat with steeply pitched prop. The 'paddle wheel' effect going astern will be greater due to prop pitch and the short length with less hull to bite the water will ensure party tricks. TYCHO is much the same - you won't stop in a straight line unless you take her out of gear and stop using the rudder alone - well, you'll come to a near stop. With the front up in the air doesn't help a lot, more hull in the water does to some extent. Modern boats in general have less if any reduction on the gearbox, and spin props at higher speeds needing less pitch, so to some extent less 'paddle wheel' effect.

 

 

Tell me more...

[Derek R.]

He couldn't steer a boat, but watch Harry H. Corbett in 'The Bargee' attempt to stop his pair by forcing the rudder from straight ahead 90° one way, then through 180° to the other. The effect is similar to using an air brake on aircraft when landing. The boat will want to go first one way then the other, but heaving it back and forth to its extreme repeatedly and holding it there a few seconds at each extreme, has the effect of slowing down a moving boat without any paddle wheel effect (provided the prop isn't turning). In a similar way, some forward motion can be gained from stop by swimming the rudder back and forth - works the same as a fishes tail. Might not have a lot of effect on something big and heavy, but the principle is there.

 

I've brought TYCHO to less than 1mph (estimated) with such a practice from 4mph in a couple of boat lengths (my boat lengths!).

 

It's probably not best to try and tell anyone how they should steer or handle their boats really, as so many have different factors involved - swim length, draught, weight, rudder area. Some go like a Box of Frogs no matter what you do.