Managing batteries

[DeanS]

This is just an observation, not really a question:

 

Batteries on a boat are obviously one of the most important things to worry about.

 

I started with 3 older batteries, and I bought 2 new ones. In all, they should have given me 550AH, but the 3 old ones aren't reliable, and I tossed one out already...leaving 2 good, and 2 bad.

 

I have various groups of people on the boat who all have differing priorities.

 

I have a small inverter which can be used for the back cabin/office for my wife and I when neccessary.

I have a large inverter which is normally on when the boat is moving.

The large inverter is hard wired into the 2 new batteries.

It beeps if the supply voltage drops below 11.5 or near there.

The older batteries seem to drag the good batteries down, so I have found myself breaking the connection between the 2 sets at times, using a car clamp cable.

When the boat is moving, I connect the 4 batteries together.

When the boat is stopped, I disconnect the new from the old.

This then means that the freezer, which is 12V permanently on, will draw from the older batteries, but not from the new.

If the old battery voltage drops down..to 10V etc, the 12V lights, water pump etc in the boat still work (fed from the old set.)

The freezer switches itself off when it wants to.

The newer set retain a higher voltage later into the night.

When these 2 begin to drop, and the larger inverter begins to beep, I connect the smaller inverter, sometimes to a spare battery, and this lets my wife and I carry on working on laptops, even though the rest of the boat up front is powerless.

 

I have a generator, which I use when possible. (not always possible).

 

I also have a nice battery charger which shows a display of the battery state, before, during and after charging.

 

The only issue I have is that it tells me it is only able to charge a battery up sized up to 200AH. It also says I need to charge a single battery at a time. This means I find myself juggling..disconnecting batteries one at a time, and charging individual ones while the gennie is running for instance..or when on shorepower.

 

I know there are alot of posts on HOW TO use/charge batteries, but I have found that the reality is having to juggle things.

 

I'll need to replace the older batteries soon.

 

At the moment we're off shore power, and we left Leeds with fully charged batteries. I've travelled for 3 hrs, and expect to start hearing inverters beeping by morning (we use too much).

 

 

)))))

 

This post is just something to help other new liveaboards. I also need to say that after 3 weeks of living on our boat, we have not gone one evening completely power less. We just have to juggle. I have an old boat, slow engine, small alternator. When I've got the cash, I'll work on improving some of those. Enjoy.

[Justme]

 

This post is just something to help other new liveaboards. I also need to say that after 3 weeks of living on our boat, we have not gone one evening completely power less. We just have to juggle. I have an old boat, slow engine, small alternator. When I've got the cash, I'll work on improving some of those. Enjoy.

 

 

Yeh dont do it like this. Your new bats will soon be going the way of the old ones.

CSI would have you bang to rights for murder lol.

 

You need to charge more use it less & stop peeing about connecting & disconnecting the batteries. Remove the old duff bats. Fit enough bats for the loads you have. Poss fit a larger alternator and or solar panels. You could make more use of the genny but thats costly.

[mrsmelly]

This is just an observation, not really a question:

 

Batteries on a boat are obviously one of the most important things to worry about.

 

I started with 3 older batteries, and I bought 2 new ones. In all, they should have given me 550AH, but the 3 old ones aren't reliable, and I tossed one out already...leaving 2 good, and 2 bad.

 

I have various groups of people on the boat who all have differing priorities.

 

I have a small inverter which can be used for the back cabin/office for my wife and I when neccessary.

I have a large inverter which is normally on when the boat is moving.

The large inverter is hard wired into the 2 new batteries.

It beeps if the supply voltage drops below 11.5 or near there.

The older batteries seem to drag the good batteries down, so I have found myself breaking the connection between the 2 sets at times, using a car clamp cable.

When the boat is moving, I connect the 4 batteries together.

When the boat is stopped, I disconnect the new from the old.

This then means that the freezer, which is 12V permanently on, will draw from the older batteries, but not from the new.

If the old battery voltage drops down..to 10V etc, the 12V lights, water pump etc in the boat still work (fed from the old set.)

The freezer switches itself off when it wants to.

The newer set retain a higher voltage later into the night.

When these 2 begin to drop, and the larger inverter begins to beep, I connect the smaller inverter, sometimes to a spare battery, and this lets my wife and I carry on working on laptops, even though the rest of the boat up front is powerless.

 

I have a generator, which I use when possible. (not always possible).

 

I also have a nice battery charger which shows a display of the battery state, before, during and after charging.

 

The only issue I have is that it tells me it is only able to charge a battery up sized up to 200AH. It also says I need to charge a single battery at a time. This means I find myself juggling..disconnecting batteries one at a time, and charging individual ones while the gennie is running for instance..or when on shorepower.

 

I know there are alot of posts on HOW TO use/charge batteries, but I have found that the reality is having to juggle things.

 

I'll need to replace the older batteries soon.

 

At the moment we're off shore power, and we left Leeds with fully charged batteries. I've travelled for 3 hrs, and expect to start hearing inverters beeping by morning (we use too much).

 

 

)))))

 

This post is just something to help other new liveaboards. I also need to say that after 3 weeks of living on our boat, we have not gone one evening completely power less. We just have to juggle. I have an old boat, slow engine, small alternator. When I've got the cash, I'll work on improving some of those. Enjoy.

 

Hi

 

Just an observation. If you run your batteries down till the inverter bleeps or the lights still work when showing 10 ish volts

then your batteries will need changing about every two months :o

You must look after them massively better than that............

[romarni123]

Hi dean we have 6 batts and there is only two of us and my other half is like the power police. I think you will need more batts so you dont end up without power.

Edited April 26, 2011 by romarni123

[Chalky]

There are battery chemistries that will allow you to run them totally flat and that will recover with no damage however they're not lead acid. If you treat them that way you are then you'll need new batteries very quickly.

 

Some of the Lithium formulations (Li-ion)allow you to use the entire capacity and recover when charged and would suit your usage profile. They can be stored flat and don't show any of the ageing problems that lead acid batteries do. They can be charged at the C1 rate and have enough power to start engines. The downside is the cost. The cells are still very expensive and when a battery management system is added (they need one to manage charge equalisation) and possibly a cooling system they would cost about the same as a new family car. The nearest equivalent is made by a marine supplier and uses a different Liion cell and costs about $6000. Give it 5 years and these will probably be common and cheap, just not yet.

 

In the mean time you'll need to look after them.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Chalky

[Justme]

I think you will need more batts so you dont end up without power.

 

 

It will not matter if he fills the boat with bats he is still using more than he is charging.

 

So the end result will be the same.

[Guest]

It will not matter if he fills the boat with bats he is still using more than he is charging.

 

So the end result will be the same.

I agree, whether one battery is fitted, or one hundred, you can't take more out than you put in. They are like a water header tank, which must never be drained below half full (or half empty, depending on your outlook.)

[DeanS]

One thing I have learned from getting information on the forum, and making things work in real life, is that theory is black and white, whereas in reality it's grey. It's easy to say buy more batteries etc..but that costs real money which I don't have. Instead I'm going to try something new from tomorrow, which will work like this:

 

1. I'm going to connect the solar panels to the older pair of batteries. These will power the freezer and all 12V circuits/pumps etc. The freezer should be powered by solar in the day and the batteries should cope overnight. This will be a seperate independant circuit.

 

2. I'm going to connect the newer batteries (2 of them) to the alternator. These will then be charged up when the boat moves. (daily). In the day I'll connect the larger invertor (2500Watt) to use while the boat is moving. (washer/computers/XBox). At night I'll switch off the large invertor and use 2 small invertors. A 300Watt for the front of the boat, and a 600Watt for our back bedroom/office.

 

Like I said, I have to work with what I've got at the moment.

 

This arrangement should keep both sets of batteries relatively charged and the gennie can top up whichever needs it.

 

The reason for this post is to help other new liveaboards. I started with a bank of 5 batteries, but it didn't work for me. The reasons are:

 

1. Alternator not strong enough to recharge the entire bank. We have only been doing about 3hrs travelling per day on average.

2. Mixing old and new batteries isn't a great idea.

3. Having a battery charger which needs to recharge batteries individually, was unexpected. Not sure if any battery charger could charge an entire bank of 550AH.

 

If anyone wants to buy me extra new batteries, a bigger alternator, and a huge gennie and a battery charger that can charge the entire bank at once, my bank account details are

 

Let me re-iterate...I'm not asking for help...I'm just sharing my experiences so far.

Edited April 26, 2011 by DeanS

[steelaway]

I agree, whether one battery is fitted, or one hundred, you can't take more out than you put in. They are like a water header tank, which must never be drained below half full (or half empty, depending on your outlook.)

 

 

So many people on here scrimp on their charging and battery's and then complain about the lack of electrical power.

It is one the major requirements these days and therfore well worth spending some money on.

I have, in effect. two large 12v 'quality' battery's and a charge controller.

We are big users of electric - the TV is often on for 6-7 hours a night!

I run about 4 hours a day with the alternators charging at an average of 40A and I can stop for up to three days without having to run the engine - at all.

 

What engine and alternator(s) do you have Dean

 

Alex

[DeanS]

So many people on here scrimp on their charging and battery's and then complain about the lack of electrical power.

It is one the major requirements these days and therfore well worth spending some money on.

I have, in effect. two large 12v 'quality' battery's and a charge controller.

We are big users of electric - the TV is often on for 6-7 hours a night!

I run about 4 hours a day with the alternators charging at an average of 40A and I can stop for up to three days without having to run the engine - at all.

 

What engine and alternator(s) do you have Dean

 

Alex

 

 

I haven't scrimped. I spent £140 on 2 new 110AH batteries, and £430 on a 160watt solar panel with 20Amp MPPT controller. I haven't found the exact replacement for my alternator yet, and I'm not quite sure how to check if the existing one is actually working 100%. I also spent £52 on a battery charger, and £91 on a small gennie. I decided that was about as much as I could afford at the time. I was never sure of the condition of the old batteries, but I've since realised one was a goner, so I've tossed it without replacing it. (for now). My elec priorities on the boat have been as follows:

 

Business laptops top priority - so far they have always been available for use.

All 12V boat water pumps,lights etc - so far they have always been available for use.

TVs - we have 2. There have been times they couldnt be on or the invertor would beep.

Kids XBox/computers etc - Only on while the boat is running.

 

So, overall, so far, we're doing well....we even have a microwave...which we run when the boat is running.

 

BUT...I've had to keep my eye on things..on a daily basis. When we haven't done many travelling hours, I've had to haul out the gennie to compensate.

[PhilR]

Dean

 

At least you have the advantage of hand start on the engine :-)

 

Do you have a separate engine start battery in addition to the others mentioned?

[nb Innisfree]

 

This arrangement should keep both sets of batteries relatively charged and the gennie can top up whichever needs it.

 

The reason for this post is to help other new liveaboards. I started with a bank of 5 batteries, but it didn't work for me. The reasons are:

 

1. Alternator not strong enough to recharge the entire bank. We have only been doing about 3hrs travelling per day on average.

2. Mixing old and new batteries isn't a great idea.

3. Having a battery charger which needs to recharge batteries individually, was unexpected. Not sure if any battery charger could charge an entire bank of 550AH.

 

Let me re-iterate...I'm not asking for help...I'm just sharing my experiences so far.

 

Ok I'm not writing this to help you but I am trying to help any newbies who may use your methods. Fully charging 2 batts will take as long as 5 batts i.e. 8 hours or more, to charge a 550 ah bank doesn't need anything special just enough time and a reasonable sized charger. Charging for 3 hours per day is ok but you will need to do a long 8+ hours at least once a week no matter what size batt bank you have.

 

Good luck but you will find that you can't beat the system, many have tried but all have failed.

[Gibbo]

...you can't beat the system, many have tried but all have failed.

 

Wise words. Pity no one takes any notice of them. I've given up trying.

[Radiomariner]

May I recommend the use of a hydrometer to check Lead Acid batteries. Not expensive, very cost effective. Will give a very good picture of your battery condition, cell by cell, especially if you keep a record of the SG readings. Many batteries have a charge indicator incorporated, this is really a very crude form of hydrometer, and only gives an indication of the condition of one cell. The indicator may still say condition is good when in fact the other cells are goosed!

 

 

 

[romarni123]

If Dean uses the washer and games console while the boat is moving is he taking the power out as fast as he is putting it in??

[Chris Pink]

If Dean uses the washer and games console while the boat is moving is he taking the power out as fast as he is putting it in??

 

DeanS: no

Everyone else: of course

 

Man need sums

[RLWP]

If Dean uses the washer and games console while the boat is moving is he taking the power out as fast as he is putting it in??

 

Yes. The alternator is providing power to run equipment instead of charging the batteries

 

Richard

[blodger]

I haven't scrimped. I spent £140 on 2 new 110AH batteries, and £430 on a 160watt solar panel with 20Amp MPPT controller. I haven't found the exact replacement for my alternator yet, and I'm not quite sure how to check if the existing one is actually working 100%. I also spent £52 on a battery charger, and £91 on a small gennie. I decided that was about as much as I could afford at the time. I was never sure of the condition of the old batteries, but I've since realised one was a goner, so I've tossed it without replacing it. (for now). My elec priorities on the boat have been as follows:

 

Business laptops top priority - so far they have always been available for use.

All 12V boat water pumps,lights etc - so far they have always been available for use.

TVs - we have 2. There have been times they couldnt be on or the invertor would beep.

Kids XBox/computers etc - Only on while the boat is running.

 

So, overall, so far, we're doing well....we even have a microwave...which we run when the boat is running.

 

BUT...I've had to keep my eye on things..on a daily basis. When we haven't done many travelling hours, I've had to haul out the gennie to compensate.

I think probably you realise that the alternator performance is now a priority in your setup.

 

To know how well it is working you need some periodic obs of the alternator charging voltages and current from engine on in the morning to stopping.

 

I suspect you have an older 36a alt with an old 13.8v regulator the performance of which could be doubled by replacing with a 2nd hand Ebay 70/80 amper for 20 squid; Iff that's the case, it will cut the juggling/

 

The other tip would be to look out for where boaters junk batts along the cut, with or without BW's blessing. You can ofter find batts that folk have changed because of other problems/age that are perfectly useable after a bit of tlc.

 

Enjoy

[nb Innisfree]

If Dean uses the washer and games console while the boat is moving is he taking the power out as fast as he is putting it in??

 

Depends on size of his alternator, we have a very large one and struggle to keep up with w/m when heater is on so yes he is probably using more power than he is generating.

[Grace and Favour]

Dean,

 

Whilst all the other comments made by your boating colleagues are valid, may I suggest that you turn off your refrigeration at night, (and don't open the door too often)

Most 'fridges will stay cold quite happily overnight with power off, (providing you haven't filled them with shopping immediately prior, and that you don't keep opening the door)

[DeanS]

Dean

 

At least you have the advantage of hand start on the engine :-)

 

Do you have a separate engine start battery in addition to the others mentioned?

 

Hi Phil.

Yes seperate start battery. No problems with that at all.

 

If Dean uses the washer and games console while the boat is moving is he taking the power out as fast as he is putting it in??

 

Good point.

 

I think probably you realise that the alternator performance is now a priority in your setup.

 

To know how well it is working you need some periodic obs of the alternator charging voltages and current from engine on in the morning to stopping.

 

I suspect you have an older 36a alt with an old 13.8v regulator the performance of which could be doubled by replacing with a 2nd hand Ebay 70/80 amper for 20 squid; Iff that's the case, it will cut the juggling/

 

 

Thanks. I have known about replacing the alternator for a while and checked on Ebay...about £50. I had a relook at mine and found it has a type of plastic cable plug fitting, and was relectant to order a replacement which might have a different connection. So yes, it's a priority for me to replace the alternator as soon as, but I'm trying to source the correct one. I'll post some pics later, and perhaps someone can help.

 

Dean,

 

Whilst all the other comments made by your boating colleagues are valid, may I suggest that you turn off your refrigeration at night, (and don't open the door too often)

Most 'fridges will stay cold quite happily overnight with power off, (providing you haven't filled them with shopping immediately prior, and that you don't keep opening the door)

 

Yep...that will certainly help

[Chris Pink]

 

I had a relook at mine and found it has a type of plastic cable plug fitting, and was relectant to order a replacement which might have a different connection.

 

 

Ignore that, underneath the plug the connectors are common and easily sourced.

[DeanS]

Ignore that, underneath the plug the connectors are common and easily sourced.

 

 

ah.....thats good news. I've posted 2 pics in a new thread of my existing set up. Perhaps confirm on that if you think I should just order the A127 off Ebay and stick it in?..anyone:)

[bluegreencanal]

I am really interested in this battery management as I have lived aboard for nearly three years and am on my third full set of domestic batteries.

 

I charge twice a day (4 domestic batts) for about 2hrs and all over winter did not run the fridge, just the tv for dvds and laptop for keeping in touch. Charged mobile phones and torches. I was expecting better performance from the batts after this, but I can tell they are already deteriorating.

 

If I choose to run the fridge via my mastervolt 2000/12 inverter they soon get low voltage.

 

I have an alternator which I can run off the engine and it will vary from 25 amps in to as low as 5 dep on batts condition I think. I have a decent generator and a battery charger mounted on the wall which will put up to 40 amps in to start but will not keep up with any power use if I try to run the inverter at the moment.

 

Friends have a pair of 80 w solar panels and use a 12v fridge. They reckon on 3 years out of their batts.

 

I would like to buy the solar panels, but need to know I will save at least something as I may not stay on the boat for more than two more years. If I invest 400 squids I wonder if I could save buying another bank of batts ( I can get 4 for 200 squid at the mo but the corners are usually slightly damaged). It is such hard work for me to lift in and out 4 large batts and recable them.

 

Would it be worthwhile to buy the panels and get someone to fit them if I end up only keeping the boat for 2 more years? Can I realistically get more life out of batteries which have been through our -12 winter by keeping them well charged? Is there a better way to top up the batteries other than distilled water?

 

My brain feels a bit like my batteries when I try to get my head round it.

 

I dont think I can afford a 12v fridge as well

[deletedaccount]

You can get solar reasonably cheap now. I linked to a seller who's got b grade panels well cheap, or A grade 80w chinese panels are less than 200 quid. Even one would help!

 

(ps, your altenator sounds a bit crap)