lister overheating

[SiFi]

I have had the cover off before when I had two injection pumps gummed up and the rack would not move at all.  The reason I suspect it might be the cause of the sudden non-starting is that the engine stop lever has no resistance to rotation, it feels disconnected. To get at it I had to cut an access hole in the bulkhead.

 

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

Looks good! Thinking of you!

[Peugeot 106]

On 29/06/2023 at 22:48, RLWP said:

 

We are starting to see LPW engines where the spring that joins the rack to the governor breaks - the hook on the end of the spring wears through. Makes the engine sort of uncontrollable

 

Richard

Great Richard .

More things to worry about. Getting more disilusioned with Lister Petter but thanks a lot for the “heads up” it’s very useful to be forearmed with this info 

[SiFi]

https://youtu.be/MjLDBd-EtBo

This is what I found, not a broken spring.

[Peugeot 106]

8 minutes ago, SiFi said:

https://youtu.be/MjLDBd-EtBo

This is what I found, not a broken spring.

Your best bet is RWLP at this stage. Everything should move smoothly it is easy to

bend the rack if the pumps are not fitted properly . Read the manual there is an explanation on how to fit the pumps on YouTube somewhere. Have your hand or something available to block the air inlet if it takes off. It may be your only means of stopping it

[SiFi]

Who or what is RWLP ... i was very careful, following the manual, when i had the pumps out, they had been gummed up. I'm hoping it is not the rack but one of the pumps being stiff.

 

Is there a way back if it is the rack?

[Peugeot 106]

2 minutes ago, SiFi said:

Who or what is RWLP ... i was very careful, following the manual, when i had the pumps out, they had been gummed up. I'm hoping it is not the rack but one of the pumps being stiff.

 

Is there a way back if it is the rack?

RWLP is a specialist lister repair and parts man. Google primrose engineering  you’ll see how he fixed my engine! And get his contact details.

also I’ve found video re pumps for you. Google YouTube  MEP 802A - LPW2 injector pump. It’s quite good.

good luck at least the bits are available and not not too daft pricing. 
I’m sorry my manual and parts list are not to hand cbheck all the springs are there and the pump spigots are correctly located in the rack slots. You could just take them out (one at a time) to check they are free

I still don’t get why this could cause overheating. Do you have 2 separate problems?

all best 

You can easily buy a new rack if it’s bent or straighten yours

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, SiFi said:

Who or what is RWLP

@RLWP should attract his attention.

[Peugeot 106]

More thoughts. The back of the rack slides in and out of a hole in the crankcase. Always seems a bit crude. But if you pull the rack out too far it will come out of the hole and not slide back in

Check its correctly in its sliding hole (I know it’s awkward to see) I dob’t think you’d get the cover on if it was out but it’s worth checking. also check the sliding hole isn’t full of gunge same as you say the pumps were 

 

 

[Steve56]

2 hours ago, SiFi said:

https://youtu.be/MjLDBd-EtBo

This is what I found, not a broken spring.

Looks like one or more of the pumps are gummed up or tight. That's about the oly thing that would make the rack that stiff.

[SiFi]

8 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

RWLP is a specialist lister repair and parts man. Google primrose engineering  you’ll see how he fixed my engine! And get his contact details.

also I’ve found video re pumps for you. Google YouTube  MEP 802A - LPW2 injector pump. It’s quite good.

good luck at least the bits are available and not not too daft pricing. 
I’m sorry my manual and parts list are not to hand cbheck all the springs are there and the pump spigots are correctly located in the rack slots. You could just take them out (one at a time) to check they are free

I still don’t get why this could cause overheating. Do you have 2 separate problems?

all best 

You can easily buy a new rack if it’s bent or straighten yours

Yes sorry I do now have this second seemingly unrelated problem.  How straightforward or not is replacing the rack it looks devilish. I'm hoping the rail can be removed and checked without removing all the other mechanism around it.

Edited July 1, 2023 by SiFi

[RLWP]

18 hours ago, SiFi said:

Who or what is RWLP ... i was very careful, following the manual, when i had the pumps out, they had been gummed up. I'm hoping it is not the rack but one of the pumps being stiff.

 

Is there a way back if it is the rack?

 

Me!

 

Richard

[SiFi]

Cheers, I'll be giving you a call

[SiFi]

On 28/06/2023 at 09:33, Peugeot 106 said:

WARNING

If you do decide to change the head gasket this engine has hydraulic tappets. Read the Workshop Manual re allowing time for the oil to bleed down. Changing the gasket is easy enough allowing time for the oil to bleed down I’ve been told is important. 
The Manual is available on line

I found this on Wiki, sounds much the same to me, draining out the oil,

 

"Used hydraulic lifters should be drained of oil before installation, to prevent them from holding open the valves on startup and potentially causing damage to the valve-train/pistons. This is easily accomplished by compressing them in a vice. Oil pressure will build quickly upon startup and they will set themselves to the proper height."

[Peugeot 106]

At least you don’t have to worry about adjusting the tappets!

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

At least you don’t have to worry about adjusting the tappets!

 

True, but from what I could gather from a conversation with an engineer looking after a number of such industrial engines, and, was convinced that the cold starting problems he was having on older engines were related to worn oil pumps or low pressure from the relief valve that did not jack the lifter enough when cranking. I have also seen enough of problem hydraulic tappets on cars to make me feel that I would rather check the valve clearances now and again.

[Peugeot 106]

30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

True, but from what I could gather from a conversation with an engineer looking after a number of such industrial engines, and, was convinced that the cold starting problems he was having on older engines were related to worn oil pumps or low pressure from the relief valve that did not jack the lifter enough when cranking. I have also seen enough of problem hydraulic tappets on cars to make me feel that I would rather check the valve clearances now and again.

Probably true too but I have much less experience than you. I think the Alpha engines may need proper maintenance. The problem is that people don’t expect to have to look after their engines properly and just get in any Tom, Dick or Harry if they have any problems. With an Alpha you are a bit on your own and  Lister Petter don’t seem to show any interest and it’s a free for all amongst the many supposed experts

Sad really but the leisure market is probably not worth it for them even if they did introduce the canal star years ago

Not bad engines in my view. Cheap enough secondhand, Spares readily available , fairly straightforward to fix just expect difficulty if you need support 

[Steve56]

15 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Probably true too but I have much less experience than you. I think the Alpha engines may need proper maintenance. The problem is that people don’t expect to have to look after their engines properly and just get in any Tom, Dick or Harry if they have any problems. With an Alpha you are a bit on your own and  Lister Petter don’t seem to show any interest and it’s a free for all amongst the many supposed experts

Sad really but the leisure market is probably not worth it for them even if they did introduce the canal star years ago

Not bad engines in my view. Cheap enough secondhand, Spares readily available , fairly straightforward to fix just expect difficulty if you need support 

As you say the Alpha range does need proper maintenance, unlike the older Listers that would take a lot more abuse. They definitely need the regular oil changes. If the oil is allowed to get to black and thick it will cause the tappets to jack themselves open, at best holding the valves off there seats, at worst causing the valve to hit the piston. As has been mentioned when the head has been removed it is important that the tappets are compressed before spinning the engine over. Lister did supply a special tool for this job. Personally I would always remove them and squeeze in a vice to ensure all the old oil was out of them. 

[SiFi]

On 01/07/2023 at 14:19, Peugeot 106 said:

RWLP is a specialist lister repair and parts man. Google primrose engineering  you’ll see how he fixed my engine! And get his contact details.

also I’ve found video re pumps for you. Google YouTube  MEP 802A - LPW2 injector pump. It’s quite good.

good luck at least the bits are available and not not too daft pricing. 
I’m sorry my manual and parts list are not to hand cbheck all the springs are there and the pump spigots are correctly located in the rack slots. You could just take them out (one at a time) to check they are free

I still don’t get why this could cause overheating. Do you have 2 separate problems?

all best 

You can easily buy a new rack if it’s bent or straighten yours

 I discovered that I need a new pump. The spring has broken in two places. I am hoping this will explain why the engine went down hill so quickly and refuses to restart. The pump is one from Delphi.

[RLWP]

23 minutes ago, SiFi said:

 I discovered that I need a new pump. The spring has broken in two places. I am hoping this will explain why the engine went down hill so quickly and refuses to restart. The pump is one from Delphi.

 

Or you need a spring

 

Richard

On 06/07/2023 at 04:15, Steve56 said:

Personally I would always remove them and squeeze in a vice to ensure all the old oil was out of them. 

 

Then they spring back to full length

 

It's much easier to follow the other instruction in the manual and wait 30-45 minutes before trying to turn the engine over after fitting them. In practice, unless your in a race pit it takes longer than that to reassemble the engine to the point it will run

 

Richard

[Steve56]

15 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

 

 

 

 

Then they spring back to full length

 

It's much easier to follow the other instruction in the manual and wait 30-45 minutes before trying to turn the engine over after fitting them. In practice, unless your in a race pit it takes longer than that to reassemble the engine to the point it will run

 

Richard

Yes they do spring back when you release them. But this will not cause any problems as there is no oil in them. They will only operate again one the oil has circulated through them. I like to do it this way just for the sake of clearing out any dirty/contaminated oil.

[SiFi]

39 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

Or you need a spring

 

Richard

I did wonder about trying to find a replacement spring, do you have one?

[Peugeot 106]

Sounds like you now know what you are shooting at which will be a relief

just after a brief search can these people help if Richard can’t, They refurb lister petter injectors

MPS Vintage Diesels. Blandford Forum

[RLWP]

6 hours ago, SiFi said:

I did wonder about trying to find a replacement spring, do you have one?

 

If i can find an old pump, yes. I'll have a look

 

Richard

[Peugeot 106]

On 30/06/2023 at 17:59, Psychalist said:

In my case the gassing was not obvious as there were no excessive bubbling in the coolant though the feed from the exhaust cooler did seem to be quite actively passing coolant. My problem was I didn't know what was normal as the boat was new to me. Mainly the symptom seemed to be over pressure and the header tank venting. As it progressed over the months, there did seem to be more bubbling whilst under load - I spent quite some time observing it under the deck boards whilst cruising. The engine didn't overheat until it finally got bad enough to stop circulation, probably through a mixture of cavitation and air lock.

 

There's no saying SiFi's situation is the same but it does bear some similarities. Some pictures follow, that I had meant to upload on a previous thread on this topic. Peugeot106 was particularly interested in the head and the absence of oil galleries across the head gasket. (Oil to the valves comes via the pushrods).

 

Here's the arrangement of the calorifier connection.

The spare wires are from the loom for a temperature gauge (not fitted). Temperature switch is on the end of the T piece at the top of the picture.

 

This is the gasket after the head was removed.

The carbon staining around the bore is the evidence of a compression leak.

 

And this is the corresponding part of the engine block.

 

Finally, the head, skimmed and cleaned:

 

Hi Psychalist I’ve been meaning to ask you for a while why the carbon staining round the bore is an indication of a leak. If it was a carbon streak across to the water ways I could understand it or am I missing something? 
RTV sealant seems to have been used. Have you any idea why when it is contradicted for most  head gaskets and  definitely for the Alphas where the surfaces should be clean, dry and degreased

i am wondering if there was some fault with yours which led the engineer to use the sealant. You then solved it by skimming the head and then (hopefully) fitting the gasket dry?