My First Boat

[Beth A]

Hi, I'm new here but it was recommended to me by somebody that I was badgering with questions about narrowboats.

 

After thinking about a narrowboat for a long while now it's only relatively recently that I've decided it's definitely the life for me. Since then I've been devouring every narrowboat book I can get my hands on; from tales of people 'downsizing' to live on a narrowboat to textbooks on electrics, diesel engine maintenance, plumbing, cabinet-making and even traditional painting styles. I've been to see quite a few boats, although none have really been what I'm looking for. Aside from being a particularly picky girl (with the ability to spot a single mark in the paint from 100 yards) I know that if I buy secondhand, it'll not be long before cupboards 'come loose' and cladding 'mysteriously vanishes' with the idea to replace it with something more 'me'. Aside from not wanting to pay for things twice, I also think that fitting out my own boat would be a really great learning experience for me and allow me to get to know the boat really well.

 

I'm a very practical woman, having an engineer (and yachtsman) father who taught me loads about electrics and plumbing. I don't mind living in a building site for a while and don't mind getting my hands dirty. There are a few jobs I don't want to do though, like blacking the hull and fitting cladding (just the thought of doing that makes me worry) but everything else is fine really. Most of my childhood was spent on boats, although yachts, so I'm well used to the sort of things that can 'happen at sea'. When writing a list of things I wanted out of life, most of them matched narrowboat living. Sense of community, quirkiness, freedom and my total inability to pack light to travel (so at least with a boat I can take along with me everything that's fitted on board) seemed to fit totally with life on board.

 

My current thinking is to buy a lined sailaway which would have an engine fitted, and lined interior, plus blacked hull and painted. Think I can raise the cash to buy this outright for about £33/35,000 and then use my salary for mooring/boat fees and buying things for the boat each month. Doing some sums, I think I can comfortably afford about £700 per month to put into the boat, after paying fees and living expenses. I'm planning to visit as many festivals as I can over the summer, hopefully to get a great idea of what boats are out there and what people have done with them, but maybe also to talk to builders and order a boat.

 

Not really sure if I have any questions per se, but it'd be nice if somebody maybe thought my idea wasn't completely insane! I do have the tendency of thinking up a plan and going for it, although while the enormity of a project might not be in the front of my mind; I usually come through it. Such as the two weeks I took off work to renovate my new house - yes, I know, two weeks! Two years later I was just finishing, but finish I did - and it looked beautiful! I realise there are a few issues with a new boat (even though I know what her name should be already) including finding a mooring as I live and work in central London at the moment. I have put a list of things I want together though, which seems to be growing each day:

 

• 
   
  
• trad hull
  
• portholes
  
• side hatches
  
• wood-panel interior
  
• pump-put toilet
  
• shower over bath
  
• washing machine
  
• wood flooring (oak?)
  
• 60'
  
• fridge/freezer (run on mains and short-term on 12v)
  
• possible for long cruising
  
• coal/wood stove with back-boiler and radiators
  
• central heating (stove?)
  
• good access to engine
  
• steel / secure doors
  
• alarm
  
• sofa long enough to snooze on
  
• hairdryer
  
• laptop power
  

 

Sorry if this is a bit rambling and all over the place. It's a little like my brain at the moment, being filled with plans and layouts etc!

 

Lovely to be here! xx

[Ray T]

Hi Beth and welcome to the forum.

 

You have done your homework very thoroughly - well done.

 

SWMBO and I do not live aboard but do a lot of cruising as I am retired and Mrs T is semi retired I cannot give you advice on living aboard, but there are many on here who can.

 

With regard to heating I would recommend both a stove and an additional form e.g. Eberspacher, The stove for the winter and the Ebby is useful for taking the chill off in late Summer early Spring evenings.

Others however may disagree..........

Edited February 7, 2011 by Ray T

[sociable_hermit]

Apart from the wooden floor (too cold!) you've pretty much got my ideal boat specced out there. Trad layout or reverse layout, though?

 

I'll second what Ray T has said: if you're living aboard, make sure you have at least 2 ways of doing everything. Never be reliant on one system, just in case it fails.

 

So, for heating, multi-fuel stove + gas or diesel boiler + electric heater to plug into a shoreline.

 

For hot water, calorifier coil from the engine + gas or diesel boiler + small immersion heater (from shoreline) + hob + space on top of multi-fuel stove for kettle. You could also consider a calorifier coil from the stove though I don't know the pros and cons of this.

 

Cookery is the trickiest one. Mine is basically hob + oven (with separate gas isolation valves) + space on top of stove for a saucepan + a toaster from the shoreline. If I had space I'd have a microwave from the shoreline too.

[sueb]

It all sounds fine but I wouldn't use oak, it goes black if it gets damp. We were told this as we finished fitting out our boat. I assume you will be looking for a mooring with a landline for the fridge/freezer. Go for it.

Sue

[carlt]

It all sounds fine but I wouldn't use oak, it goes black if it gets damp. We were told this as we finished fitting out our boat.

It only goes black if it isn't finished correctly.

 

My house (and boat) is full of the stuff, with no black anywhere.

[sociable_hermit]

Another thought - ensure the fridge you get will actually chill on 12V. The old Electrolux 3-way fridges were supposedly 240V, 12V and gas, but in practice the 12V was useless.

 

Might be better to have a 12V fridge which can run off the batteries but with a 240V transformer for the shoreline and a changeover switch, if that isn't included? Same end result, but specced the other way round, if you see what I mean.

Edited February 7, 2011 by sociable_hermit

[jonk]

Hi Beth,

Good luck!

 

You might be interested in this thread, although you seem pretty sure of what you want!

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=31775&st=0&p=560464&hl=jonk&fromsearch=1entry560464

 

John

[Guest User]

One thing you haven't made much mention of is the perennial conundrum that is finding the right mooring for you.

 

From what you've mentioned it sounds like you're looking to liveaboard whilst fitting out. Are you planning to continuously cruise or are you looking for a residential berth ? Some marinas allow owners to do work on site and some only allow minor maintenance. It's probably a good idea to start looking around as soon as posible to see what's available and whether any meet your expectations.

[Dyad]

Hi Beth

 

I have no useful info to give you just welcome to the forum, great first post btw.

 

 

Kev

[Beth A]

With regard to heating I would recommend both a stove and an additional form e.g. Eberspacher, The stove for the winter and the Ebby is useful for taking the chill off in late Summer early Spring evenings.

Others however may disagree..........

 

I'll second what Ray T has said: if you're living aboard, make sure you have at least 2 ways of doing everything. Never be reliant on one system, just in case it fails.

 

That's great advice, thank you! I was thinking about a calorifier as it seems a great idea to use any extra heat. Would it be reasonable to have the radiators running from the stove boiler though? Also, is an Eberspacher a space heater?

 

Apart from the wooden floor (too cold!) you've pretty much got my ideal boat specced out there. Trad layout or reverse layout, though?

 

I think I'm right in saying reverse layout as on my plans I have the saloon through the rear doors, then leading into kitchen, storage, bathroom and then bedroom.

 

It all sounds fine but I wouldn't use oak, it goes black if it gets damp. We were told this as we finished fitting out our boat. I assume you will be looking for a mooring with a landline for the fridge/freezer. Go for it.

Sue

 

Yes, I'll be looking for a mooring but wanted to make sure the fridge/freezer ran ok if I was off the mains for a short period of time. I don't do much cooking that requires a fridge really though as I don't have any dairy or meat in my diet.

 

One thing you haven't made much mention of is the perennial conundrum that is finding the right mooring for you.

 

From what you've mentioned it sounds like you're looking to liveaboard whilst fitting out. Are you planning to continuously cruise or are you looking for a residential berth ? Some marinas allow owners to do work on site and some only allow minor maintenance. It's probably a good idea to start looking around as soon as posible to see what's available and whether any meet your expectations.

 

Yes, I did mention that just before my list. Seems to be one of the biggest issues, as I understand. I've been to see a couple of marinas with plenty of space but I was hoping to be a bit closer into London - it's fine if I can't be as I'll put my name down and maybe have to wait a couple of years. Although I did hear that the waiting list for Little Venice is seven years! Although Little Venice is in a particularly pretty area and I have other more favoured areas.

 

Essentially I'm really flexible. I did want to get a residential mooring for a short period - maybe a couple of years - while I'm commuting in London, but in the long-term I may continuous-cruise and work over the Internet.

 

One question I would like to ask though; is it possible to put your name down for a berth if you don't have a boat? I guess length may be an issue if you're not sure what you're going to get, but I'm pretty sure on a 60' boat.

 

 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!

 

Oh, forgot to ask too (see, all the questions are starting to flood out now - you'll be sick of me soon! ) I was chatting to a really lovely guy last night on the cut, and he mentioned he'd wished he'd gone for the gold license rather than the one he has. He does CC though, so maybe it's worthwhile, but wondered if anybody here had a particular opinion about them compared to standard licenses?

[Ray T]

"That's great advice, thank you! I was thinking about a calorifier as it seems a great idea to use any extra heat. Would it be reasonable to have the radiators running from the stove boiler though? Also, is an Eberspacher a space heater?"

Eberspacher do both http://www.eberspacher.com/products/

 

We have a Hydronic on our boat that as well as heating the radiators the pipwork runs through the calorifier ( as well as the enging cooling system) so it heats the hot water as well.

 

I have no experience of the space heater.

 

Our stove is a stand alone afair.

 

If you are planning to live on board full time one of these may be more useful:

 

http://www.calcuttboats.com/hurricane.html

Edited February 7, 2011 by Ray T

[Guest User]

<snip> One question I would like to ask though; is it possible to put your name down for a berth if you don't have a boat? I guess length may be an issue if you're not sure what you're going to get, but I'm pretty sure on a 60' boat.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply!

 

Oh, forgot to ask too (see, all the questions are starting to flood out now - you'll be sick of me soon! ) I was chatting to a really lovely guy last night on the cut, and he mentioned he'd wished he'd gone for the gold license rather than the one he has. He does CC though, so maybe it's worthwhile, but wondered if anybody here had a particular opinion about them compared to standard licenses?

 

It depends on the individual marina but by and large, yes, even without a boat you can put your name down for a berth. There's a chance you might end up gaining the mooring before the boat in which case you may have to pay for the empty space till you get your boat, but that may well be a lot easier than getting the boat and then having nowhere useful to keep it.

 

Gold licence covers BW and EA waters, useful for example if you intend to cruise the Thames regularly or other EA waters. BW Licence details are here http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it/choosing-and-buying-a-licence/standard-licences

 

Sounds like you've got some exciting times coming up .... good luck !

[Beth A]

Eberspacher do both http://www.eberspacher.com/products/

 

We have a Hydronic on our boat that as well as heating the radiators the pipwork runs through the calorifier ( as well as the enging cooling system) so it heats the hot water as well.

 

I have no experience of the space heater.

 

Our stove is a stand alone afair.

 

If you are planning to live on board full time one of these may be more useful:

 

http://www.calcuttboats.com/hurricane.html

 

Fabulous, thanks! I am planning to live aboard full-time, yes, those look great!

 

It depends on the individual marina but by and large, yes, even without a boat you can put your name down for a berth. There's a chance you might end up gaining the mooring before the boat in which case you may have to pay for the empty space till you get your boat, but that may well be a lot easier than getting the boat and then having nowhere useful to keep it.

 

Gold licence covers BW and EA waters, useful for example if you intend to cruise the Thames regularly or other EA waters. BW Licence details are here http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-it/choosing-and-buying-a-licence/standard-licences

 

Sounds like you've got some exciting times coming up .... good luck !

 

Thank you, it's really exciting! Have so much to work out and plan, and then actually do, but I really enjoy the learning.

[Rustykev]

Hi Beth,

What a wonderful way to start this alternative life! My two penneth worth.

 

Gold Licence - As ever, depends ho long you spend on the Thames. The cost of an upgrade to Gold is about the same as a weeks worth of day tickets we spent when going from Oxford to Brentford. SO, if you plan to leave the cut for the mightly Isis for more than a week, go for Gold!

 

Solid fuel stove - we have a Squirrel with back boiler, feeding calorifer and radiators. Radiators only take the chill off, and water not heated to scalding for showers etc, but, by running the engine (which feeds into the calorifer as well) for an hour, the water is piping hot and sufficient for ones needs. Oh yes - please do put the stove in the middle of the boat - it will then be more efficient at heating the main space.

 

Good access to engine - consider a trad stern with access dropping directly to an open engine room. It does mean that you have a "tool shed"/utility room in which to store maintenance items etc.

 

No one has commented on teh Pump out /cassette. This is an interesting topic and each has their merits with such valid reasons as depending which way the wind blows, how opinionated one is, whether there is an "R" in the month. Really, one should not mention such matters unless one wishes to start a riot. Suffice to say that if you are permanently moored handy to a pump out and you still work (thus you are able to do your daily rituals in any facility other than your boat), then pump out is good. If not, then the cassette loo wins out. That said, we have a pump out and are about to embark on CC'ing, but we bought Leo with a pump out and are happy with it.

[larkshall]

Beth, welcome to the forum.

 

Seems like you are a competent sailor, so most of the 'problems'are going to be childs play for you. There are a number of specialists here who can advise on detailed specific challenges coming your way. Having said that there are many differing points of view (eg toilets (bucket v cassette v pumpout) The same applies to space and water heating. Most of the solutions are actually dictated by lifestyle. An example is 'bath with shower over' Your choice, (and mine too), others will disagree, but with good humour on the whole.

 

If you have only just joined the site, read some of the selfbuild/fitout blogs, especially relating to reputable hull builders and the like.

 

Happy planning

 

David aka larkshall

[Dekazer]

Hiya,

 

Welcome to the forum. I won't echo too much, but just to contribute re. the mooring vs cruising debate. I have met people CCing who are also fitting out their boats, but it does seem rather a tall order if you're also working. The last person I met who was living in a lined shell was, while very lovely, also rather fragrant. he'd also frozen himself half to death over the winter..

 

I also know people who have lived aboard whilst fitting out boats in marinas, who seemed to cope rather better. I have friends currently finishing off a similar project at one of the marinas you've probably visited already. If you want to meet them just PM me and maybe head over for a pint some time.

 

Whatever you choose, it's a really good idea to make friends with other boaters fast - and always take their phone numbers. It will save you so much hassle if you can borrow kit off people - it'll save precious space too!

 

Good luck with it

 

Lucy

[wandering snail]

 

 

No one has commented on teh Pump out /cassette. This is an interesting topic and each has their merits with such valid reasons as depending which way the wind blows, how opinionated one is, whether there is an "R" in the month. Really, one should not mention such matters unless one wishes to start a riot. Suffice to say that if you are permanently moored handy to a pump out and you still work (thus you are able to do your daily rituals in any facility other than your boat), then pump out is good. If not, then the cassette loo wins out. That said, we have a pump out and are about to embark on CC'ing, but we bought Leo with a pump out and are happy with it.

 

Or a composting loo - much maligned by those who haven't tried one of the latest but oh so simple to use. Look at the Separett 'Villa'. We love ours (if that's appropriate for a toilet)and would have another one when the time came, but apparently they will last for years. Lot to be said for low tech. And it saves on precious tank water.

[MoominPapa]

Gold Licence - As ever, depends ho long you spend on the Thames. The cost of an upgrade to Gold is about the same as a weeks worth of day tickets we spent when going from Oxford to Brentford. SO, if you plan to leave the cut for the mightly Isis for more than a week, go for Gold!

... but don't forget that a Gold Licence isn't just for the Thames, it gives you access to the Nene and the Great Ouse and its tributaries too. The Eastern waterways are a wonderful trip that shouldn't be missed.

 

MP.

[Beth A]

Hi Beth,

What a wonderful way to start this alternative life! My two penneth worth.

 

Gold Licence - As ever, depends ho long you spend on the Thames. The cost of an upgrade to Gold is about the same as a weeks worth of day tickets we spent when going from Oxford to Brentford. SO, if you plan to leave the cut for the mightly Isis for more than a week, go for Gold!

 

Solid fuel stove - we have a Squirrel with back boiler, feeding calorifer and radiators. Radiators only take the chill off, and water not heated to scalding for showers etc, but, by running the engine (which feeds into the calorifer as well) for an hour, the water is piping hot and sufficient for ones needs. Oh yes - please do put the stove in the middle of the boat - it will then be more efficient at heating the main space.

 

Good access to engine - consider a trad stern with access dropping directly to an open engine room. It does mean that you have a "tool shed"/utility room in which to store maintenance items etc.

 

No one has commented on teh Pump out /cassette. This is an interesting topic and each has their merits with such valid reasons as depending which way the wind blows, how opinionated one is, whether there is an "R" in the month. Really, one should not mention such matters unless one wishes to start a riot. Suffice to say that if you are permanently moored handy to a pump out and you still work (thus you are able to do your daily rituals in any facility other than your boat), then pump out is good. If not, then the cassette loo wins out. That said, we have a pump out and are about to embark on CC'ing, but we bought Leo with a pump out and are happy with it.

 

Amazing advice, thank you!

 

Might be getting a bit confused, but if I had the stove with a back-boiler and something like the Eberspacher that Ray T mentioned (something like http://www.eberspacher.com/products/water-heating/hydronic-5.html) then could I run the Eber from shore power to increase the hot water I have? I'm not an over-user of hot water, but I have to admit to getting really rather cranky if I can't have a regular shower.

 

Seems like you are a competent sailor, so most of the 'problems'are going to be childs play for you. There are a number of specialists here who can advise on detailed specific challenges coming your way. Having said that there are many differing points of view (eg toilets (bucket v cassette v pumpout) The same applies to space and water heating. Most of the solutions are actually dictated by lifestyle. An example is 'bath with shower over' Your choice, (and mine too), others will disagree, but with good humour on the whole.

 

If you have only just joined the site, read some of the selfbuild/fitout blogs, especially relating to reputable hull builders and the like.

 

Thanks David! I did the RYA Coastal Skipper quite a few years ago now, so I'm quite comfortable 'driving' big boats, although I've not helmed a narrowboat a huge amount - actually was pleasantly surprised at the turning capability of one I was let loose on. Mostly I'm used to yachts that need plenty of keel to keep them going in a straight line, so it's nice to feel a narrowboat.

 

I've always said that my idea of being on a boat was being able to put a cup of tea down without it shooting away from you and smashing on the inside of the hull.

 

Thanks for the tip about the blogs too!

[RLWP]

If you are using a shoreline, an immersion heater in the calorifier would be a simpler way

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

Gold Licence - As ever, depends ho long you spend on the Thames. The cost of an upgrade to Gold is about the same as a weeks worth of day tickets we spent when going from Oxford to Brentford. SO, if you plan to leave the cut for the mightly Isis for more than a week, go for Gold!

But unless they have changed it, doing it on EA day licences for a week would be massively more expensive than buying a 14 day EA licence, and only using half of it. (I think the break even point comes around just 4 days on the river ?)

 

Without looking it up, I very much doubt that for many boats a weeks use of the Thames, (actually the potential of a fortnight's use of the Thames), as a single trip, it could possibly work out cheaper to "go for Gold".

 

That really is only cost-effective if you want to be longer on EA waters, or visit several in a year, I think.

[Beth A]

Hiya,

 

Welcome to the forum. I won't echo too much, but just to contribute re. the mooring vs cruising debate. I have met people CCing who are also fitting out their boats, but it does seem rather a tall order if you're also working. The last person I met who was living in a lined shell was, while very lovely, also rather fragrant. he'd also frozen himself half to death over the winter..

 

I also know people who have lived aboard whilst fitting out boats in marinas, who seemed to cope rather better. I have friends currently finishing off a similar project at one of the marinas you've probably visited already. If you want to meet them just PM me and maybe head over for a pint some time.

 

Whatever you choose, it's a really good idea to make friends with other boaters fast - and always take their phone numbers. It will save you so much hassle if you can borrow kit off people - it'll save precious space too!

 

Good luck with it

 

Lucy

 

Hi Lucy,

 

Yeah, although I'm a hardy type, I don't like to be smelly and I'm sure my colleagues wouldn't want me to be either. Although there are showers at work, so it's not too bad. I also have the option for very low-cost housing that I can stay in while fitting a boat out and move on board when it's slightly more comfortable - and warm! Think I'm planning to do more of the cosmetic work and not have a huge amount to do myself.

 

May well be your friends were the people I bumped into at a marina, had a look on board their boat and decided on a sailaway! I'll PM you anyway, any chance I get to go see boats and marinas is very very welcome!

 

If you are using a shoreline, an immersion heater in the calorifier would be a simpler way

 

Would that mean I could have the stove with back-boiler, a calorifier running from the engine and an immersion heater in the calorifier to run from mains power when the engine isn't running?

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Would that mean I could have the stove with back-boiler, a calorifier running from the engine and an immersion heater in the calorifier to run from mains power when the engine isn't running?

 

It's not really my field, but if you have a two coil calorifier with an immersion (I believe that they exist*) then that's one coil for the stove, one coil for the engine circuit and an immersion. That's three ways of heating water

 

Richard

 

*I believe lots of things exist...

[Beth A]

It's not really my field, but if you have a two coil calorifier with an immersion (I believe that they exist*) then that's one coil for the stove, one coil for the engine circuit and an immersion. That's three ways of heating water

 

That sounds fantastic! Guess one thing better than two ways of doing something is three ways of doing something. I do like the idea of having the flexibility of running from shore power if I don't want to run the engine, running from engine heat if I'm running it anyway, and having a stove for aesthetics, main-cabin heat and providing some level of warm water.

 

two coil calorifier with an immersion

 

Would it be something like this:

 

http://www.elyboatchandlers.com/chandlery/water-systems/calorifiers/75l-twin-coil-calorifier-with-ss-coils.html

[MoominPapa]

That sounds fantastic! Guess one thing better than two ways of doing something is three ways of doing something. I do like the idea of having the flexibility of running from shore power if I don't want to run the engine, running from engine heat if I'm running it anyway, and having a stove for aesthetics, main-cabin heat and providing some level of warm water.

Make it four, and install a gas-fired instantaneous water heater too. That gives you hot water in the summer without an external electricity supply and without running the engine (and without waiting). Typical brands are Morco and Rinnai.

 

FWIW we have three of these options (engine heat, instantaneous, back-boiler) I'd not be without the first two, but the back boiler isn't so vital: a stove sized to keep a narrowboat warm takes a long time to heat a calorifier, especially if some of the BB output is also running radiators.

 

Something to take into account when doing the plumbing: a marine diesel engine will quite possibly get the water in a calorifier up to 85 or 90 degrees, which is bloody dangerous coming straight out of taps. Make sure that the calorifier you install has a thermostatic mixing valve which adds cold as the water is drawn off, so that the water is a more reasonable temperature.

 

 

MP.

Edited February 8, 2011 by MoominPapa