gas

[alan_fincher]

Refering back to the OP, he/she can install all the pipe work etc, but NOT connect directly to a gas supply. This final connection and a full check HAS to be done by a qualified LPG Gas Safe engineer. If it is a modification/retrofit to a (on the gas side) existing LPG installation this has to be done by Gas Safe.

Sorry, but unless you can produce an official source that says that, (or even anything vaguely similar), that is just a total nonsense.

 

I challenge you to do so.

[the grinch]

as a qualified gas safe registered engineer i find most of the above laughable. basically every single post above is more about point scoring than actually finding out what the legal position is

As the likes of David are so cock sure i won't even bother to give any advice on how totally wrong most of the above is.

 

OP if you are still unsure PM me and i will help if i can

 

i hold

 

LPG and natural Gas certification

 

including Boats!

 

kev

[J R]

Sorry, but unless you can produce an official source that says that, (or even anything vaguely similar), that is just a total nonsense.

 

I challenge you to do so.

 

Firstly, I am not and never have been a gas engineer. Secondly, do your own research on the official sources, boating or otherwise. Thirdly I do not do 'challenges' when it comes to peoples lives and safety issues. Finally, as a part of my occupation I have to ensure that any appropriate contractors or sub contractors who work for me do their work to the highest and most professional standard when it comes to a given installation (boating and non boating). I stand by what I have said as fact.

 

as a qualified gas safe registered engineer i find most of the above laughable. basically every single post above is more about point scoring than actually finding out what the legal position is

As the likes of David are so cock sure i won't even bother to give any advice on how totally wrong most of the above is.

 

OP if you are still unsure PM me and i will help if i can

 

i hold

 

LPG and natural Gas certification

 

including Boats!

 

kev

 

Kev. With you on this one. Well posted.

[alan_fincher]

Firstly, I am not and never have been a gas engineer.

I don't see the relevance - I can't see anyone has suggested you are/were.

 

Secondly, do your own research on the official sources, boating or otherwise.

I have, which is why I believe what you have said is totally incorrect.

 

Thirdly I do not do 'challenges' when it comes to peoples lives and safety issues. Finally, as a part of my occupation I have to ensure that any appropriate contractors or sub contractors who work for me do their work to the highest and most professional standard when it comes to a given installation (boating and non boating).

Again, I fail to see the relevance.

 

I stand by what I have said as fact.

I don't believe it is.

[J R]

I don't see the relevance - I can't see anyone has suggested you are/were.

 

 

I have, which is why I believe what you have said is totally incorrect.

 

 

Again, I fail to see the relevance.

 

 

I don't believe it is.

 

Lets agree to disagree then. Individuals can decide for themselves.

[alan_fincher]

as a qualified gas safe registered engineer i find most of the above laughable. basically every single post above is more about point scoring than actually finding out what the legal position is

As the likes of David are so cock sure i won't even bother to give any advice on how totally wrong most of the above is.

That is not terribly helpful to people who are actually interested in knowing what the position is. Rather than saying you will not say, because someone is "cock sure", wouldn't it be more beneficial to the forum if you did.

 

I don't see it as point scoring at all - I see it as trying to establish fact, in an area where things are not always clearly set out, and misinformation is rife. I feel that if someone has got it wrong, it would be better to give an explanation why, preferably quoting sources.

 

I am not responding to what I see to be wrong information on here because I'm point scoring - I'm doing so because I believe the forum suffers if people publish wrong information as "fact", and others then start to repeat it.

 

I'm not usually afraid to admit I'm wrong - prove to me I am, and I'll happily retract any misinformation I have given, here, or elsewhere.

[the grinch]

the fact is simple you can diy gas both in the home and in the leisure vehicles subject to competence in the given task.

but there is the rub "Competence" is defined in regulation 3 (1) and is clarified in guidance note 47 which states "Competence depends on a combination of Training& experience.

 

then you have the definition of "work" as laid down in regulation 2 but in particular reg2 guidance 22 which clearly envelopes DIY and work undertaken for friends

 

then you have the requirements to adequately test the installation for leaks how many DIYers know what pressure to test at, for how long, what the permissible drops are and what equipment they need to do the above?

 

i've seen on here the "oh its ok i used washing up liquid" and other things said that are a complete no no in the rules.

 

i have all the requisite tickets to do work on boats, residential park homes and permanent dwellings. do i know all the rules, test proceedures? no i don't and i often have a look in the books to clarify things if i take on a job that i rarely do

 

again how many DIYers have a complete set of gas books (cost for a set is hugely expensive) when all you want is a short run to a cooker/boiler in a 40ft boat!!

 

if a customer wants to double check my work then i have no problem with that as i'm only human and yes i have made mistakes, some have been most basic, some more complicated.

 

and as for the cartel comment Corgi came about as a result of a major F.up by a British Gas engineer who wiped out 3 floors of a tower block rendering the building unsafe (it was demolished as beyond repair),

the fees charged for registration / certification have to be paid for out of our fee. an average job £57 less vat 20% leaves £45.60 less tax another 20% £34.20 left then we take road tax/fuel/service of transport to get there say a fiver £29.20 left then the registration / assessments £6,500 every five years (approx 65p per job)£28.55 left. most jobs take at least a hour to do and then you have to get to the next job.

then there is advertising, phone bills, office/stationary so when you think about it properly you will see that we don't make that much out of the fee charged.

 

so next time you think about diying your gas think about what the regs say and then when it all goes tits up think about how you would defend your actions in court!

[Naughty Cal]

Phylis's usual response to losing an argument, writ large.

Some people simply cannot cope with logical, fact-based argument; i.e. actual argument rather than just assertion or shouting.

I may not always agree with Dave, but at least he knows how to argue his position.

 

I did not lose any argument. David made one out of thin air, as he usually does, by pretending that people have written things that clearly they have not.

[mayalld]

Refering back to the OP, he/she can install all the pipe work etc, but NOT connect directly to a gas supply. This final connection and a full check HAS to be done by a qualified LPG Gas Safe engineer. If it is a modification/retrofit to a (on the gas side) existing LPG installation this has to be done by Gas Safe.

 

Dave, your post #4; a gas safe engineer will sign the work off if it complies. BSC inspection does not do a complete gas check.

 

Always ensure that the Gas Safe Engineer is (marine) LPG qualified. Most are not. Also, check their credentials either by their ID card that they have to carry and/or by the Gas Safe website.

 

We have our boat checked every year just to make sure everything is safe and sound gas wise. No one likes over regulation, but sometimes it is there for a reason.

 

<sigh>

 

The WHOLE POINT of this discussion has been to determine what the regulations ACTUALLY say.

 

Not what GasSafe would like people to THINK they say, but what they REALLY say.

 

Having checked very thoroughly, the conclusion is that there is NO REQUIREMENT to us a GasSafe engineer, and that competent DIY work is perfectly legal.

[alan_fincher]

<SNIP>

the fact is simple you can diy gas both in the home and in the leisure vehicles subject to competence in the given task.

but there is the rub "Competence" is defined in regulation 3 (1) and is clarified in guidance note 47 which states "Competence depends on a combination of Training& experience.

<SNIP>

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond - it makes your position much clearer.

 

I agree that 'competent' is hard to define, and probably harder to test in law.

 

I also have no doubt that there are people DIYing it who think they are 'competent', but by any reasonable test would probably be found to not be so. I guess that can be used as an argument why no DIY should be allowed, although that is not my interpretation of the current regulations.

 

I'm not trying to knock the 'trade' - I'm sure most of you are very proficient at what you do, and some of you come on here and give very clear and helpful advice. However I think few would dispute that there have been many reports of poor and dangerous work by people who do hold all the relevant certifications, and that, quite often, professional work has failed a BSS, (quite rightly, if you read up the point it has failed on, usually).

 

I was told of someone who operates both as a boat gas fitter, and as a BSS inspector, and who is widely respected (and sometimes recommended) by some on here, but where severe concerns were expressed about both work he had done, and work he had passed. The message wsa "if you want a BSS with no bother, use him - if you want to know your boat is safe, then find someone else" - I found someone else! So certification, or even personal recommendation, doesn't seem to guarantee safety either.

 

Not sure what the answer is, but in the absence of many reported serious gas incidents on boats, and with a reasonable confidence that I can do what I need to safely, I am not deterred from DIY while I'm allowed. No I don't possess a library of books on the topic, but until someone convinces me I need to, I feel OK with my own work.

 

If that sounds arrogant, I really don't mean it to. I do actually take safety very seriously, and in any area, whether it be gas, fuel, electricity, at the point I was out of my comfort zone, I wouldn't hesitate to involve a professional.

 

I do object to any nonsense being spouted in technical threads, though - and some opinions stated on here as "fact", most clearly are not "fact".

[Speedwheel]

but there is the rub "Competence" is defined in regulation 3 (1) and is clarified in guidance note 47 which states "Competence depends on a combination of Training& experience.

 

That's interesting. So under the regs, competence has nothing to do with them being any good or safe at what they do, merely that they they have had training and experience?

[mayalld]

That's interesting. So under the regs, competence has nothing to do with them being any good or safe at what they do, merely that they they have had training and experience?

 

Did you miss the sleight of hand there.

 

One minute we were talking about what the regulations say, the next reference was made to guidance notes, implying that those notes have the same force of law.

 

I know myself to be competent to install a boat gas system, and see no need to have such an installation subjected to a non-mandatory check by a GasSafe engineer (as it happens, I have an uncle who is registered, so I could get it checked for free.

 

I have worked on gas systems for boats that I owned on several occasions, and my BSS inspector (who is aware that it is DIY) has always been totally happy with our installation.

 

I have also fitted new brake pads to the car today. Doubtless somebody thinks I should get that work checked by a mechanic!

[Nickhlx]

Did you miss the sleight of hand there.

 

One minute we were talking about what the regulations say, the next reference was made to guidance notes, implying that those notes have the same force of law.

 

I know myself to be competent to install a boat gas system, and see no need to have such an installation subjected to a non-mandatory check by a GasSafe engineer (as it happens, I have an uncle who is registered, so I could get it checked for free.

 

I have worked on gas systems for boats that I owned on several occasions, and my BSS inspector (who is aware that it is DIY) has always been totally happy with our installation.

 

I have also fitted new brake pads to the car today. Doubtless somebody thinks I should get that work checked by a mechanic!

 

 

Only last weekend I taught my 17 year old how to check / change (and we did change as a result) his car's front brake pads - initially he was daunted by this, so I did the first side, then oversaw him do the second, and after seeing what was involved, I reckon he was suitably trained by the end of it, happy the ? £75 ? labour charge was saved and the car was back on the road 90 mins later.......

 

I have built several engines, both standard and tuned - mainly when I was around late teens, both car and bike, have since always done my car servicing, even converted one to run on gas and registered it with the DVLA back in the 70's, but these days, Part P and similar temper my enthusiasm to be bothered with property work. I feel sure some remedial work is not done these days to avoid running up against "the regs" and there are problems as a result...

 

Progress they call it....

 

Nick

[Speedwheel]

Hey that's a point - I changed the entire front brakes on my car a few months ago. Callipers, disks, pads, lines the lot. As I am not a qualified mechanic does that mean if I have a crash my insurance will be void!

 

Edit: or void even if I don't (have a crash)

Edited February 3, 2011 by Speedwheel

[Nickhlx]

Hey that's a point - I changed the entire front brakes on my car a few months ago. Callipers, disks, pads, lines the lot. As I am not a qualified mechanic does that mean if I have a crash my insurance will be void!

 

If not now, quite possibly before too long !! Our best "motoring days" are over, in this country at least.... regulations are choking the life and fun out of everything...

 

Nick

Edited February 3, 2011 by Nickhlx

[Robbo]

Hey that's a point - I changed the entire front brakes on my car a few months ago. Callipers, disks, pads, lines the lot. As I am not a qualified mechanic does that mean if I have a crash my insurance will be void!

 

If they were to be proved to be the fault of the crash then I'm guessing you will be liable. Will have to read your Insurance T&C to be sure - there will be a maintenance bit in there I'm sure.

[Nickhlx]

If they were to be proved to be the fault of the crash then I'm guessing you will be liable. Will have to read your Insurance T&C to be sure - there will be a maintenance bit in there I'm sure.

 

There's a more general cover-all in that a car is required to be roadworthy at all times and hold a current MOT for the insurance to be valid...

 

Nick

[MtB]

Hi All. Can I run a new gas supply on the boat myself or have I got to be gas safe reg.

 

As with all things gas, the answer is not straightforward. My understanding (as a member of the cartel) is that the answer depends on the boat and on whether you are being rewarded for running this gas supply.

 

If the boat is a hire boat or a used as residence then the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 (GSIUR) apply. If the GSIUR do not apply then DIY is 100% legal.

 

If the GSIUR apply then you only need to be 'competent' provided you receive no reward for the work.

 

Only if you are being rewarded (money or even a pint in the pub) for gas work on an installation falling within the scope of the GSIUR (boat, house, whatever) must you be Gas Safe Registered.

 

Hope that clarifies the position.

 

Mike

[mayalld]

As with all things gas, the answer is not straightforward. My understanding (as a member of the cartel) is that the answer depends on the boat and on whether you are being rewarded for running this gas supply.

 

If the boat is a hire boat or a used as residence then the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 (GSIUR) apply. If the GSIUR do not apply then DIY is 100% legal.

 

If the GSIUR apply then you only need to be 'competent' provided you receive no reward for the work.

 

Only if you are being rewarded (money or even a pint in the pub) for gas work on an installation falling within the scope of the GSIUR (boat, house, whatever) must you be Gas Safe Registered.

 

Hope that clarifies the position.

 

Mike

 

I think that it clarifies it perfectly!

[blackrose]

I know myself to be competent to install a boat gas system, and see no need to have such an installation subjected to a non-mandatory check by a GasSafe engineer (as it happens, I have an uncle who is registered, so I could get it checked for free.

 

I have worked on gas systems for boats that I owned on several occasions, and my BSS inspector (who is aware that it is DIY) has always been totally happy with our installation.

 

I have also fitted new brake pads to the car today. Doubtless somebody thinks I should get that work checked by a mechanic!

 

I see your point Dave, but after installing the gas system on my boat I couldn't help feeling pleased when the BSS inspector told me I'd done a good job. I'd been using the system for two years prior to the inspection so I was confident that my installation was safe, but nevertheless it was nice to have someone qualified confirm it for me. Had he told me it was unsafe I would have been surprised since I had followed the BSS regs and Calor pipe sizing tables to the letter.

 

In my own case I didn't feel I needed to have a professional check my work, but was happy to have one do so (as part of the BSS). I think that approach involves two concepts which aren't necessarily contradictory: confidence in one's own ability, together with an interest in what a professional thinks.

Edited February 3, 2011 by blackrose

[mayalld]

I see your point Dave, but after installing the gas system on my boat I couldn't help feeling pleased when the BSS inspector told me I'd done a good job.

 

Of course it was nice.

 

Just like it was nice when he complimented the tidy wiring loom.

 

Unlike the smart-arse BSS inspector who was peering through the windows before I had completed the fit-out, and passed comment to the effect that "you'd be better getting a professional to do some bits you know, because that pipe is going to have to come out".

 

Upon enquiring WTF he was talking about, he droned on about the gas pipe running along the skirting instead of under the gunwhales. I let him continue for a while before pointing out that the "gas pipe" that he had, unbidden, passed comment on was nothing of the sort. It was actually a diesel pipe for the bubble stove.

 

I expressed the hope that I would manage to find a BSS inspector who didn't make such elementary mistakes.

[bag 'o' bones]

Of course it was nice.

 

Just like it was nice when he complimented the tidy wiring loom.

 

Unlike the smart-arse BSS inspector who was peering through the windows before I had completed the fit-out, and passed comment to the effect that "you'd be better getting a professional to do some bits you know, because that pipe is going to have to come out".

 

Upon enquiring WTF he was talking about, he droned on about the gas pipe running along the skirting instead of under the gunwhales. I let him continue for a while before pointing out that the "gas pipe" that he had, unbidden, passed comment on was nothing of the sort. It was actually a diesel pipe for the bubble stove.

 

I expressed the hope that I would manage to find a BSS inspector who didn't make such elementary mistakes.

 

Elementry mistakes such as confusing recommendations with requirements?

The BSS does not implicitly state that gas should not be run along skirtings.

 

Whilst it it is obviously better for a pipe to secured out of harms ways sometimes the ideal route is not possible.

Edited February 3, 2011 by bag 'o' bones

[MtB]

The BSS does not implicitly state that gas should not be run along skirtings.

 

Whilst it it is obviously better for a pipe to secured out of harms ways sometimes the ideal route is not possible.

Fitting a pipe 'out of harms way' is not optional, it's compulsory.

 

The BSS says:

 

"To protect pipework from potential mechanical damage which could cause it to

leak, it must be run as high as possible within the hull, preferably at or above

gunwhale level. "

 

The general interpretation is that if a pipe can be fitted higher, then it must be fitted higher.

 

I favour running gas pipes at ceiling level and on full view. Ok I'm biased but I think neatly installed and copper-saddle-clipped gas pipes are a Thing Of Beauty.

 

People often comment on the pleasing appearance of the high level gas pipes in our boat. Honest! :-)

 

Mike

[bag 'o' bones]

Fitting a pipe 'out of harms way' is not optional, it's compulsory.

 

The BSS says:

 

"To protect pipework from potential mechanical damage which could cause it to

leak, it must be run as high as possible within the hull, preferably at or above

gunwhale level. "

 

The general interpretation is that if a pipe can be fitted higher, then it must be fitted higher.

 

I favour running gas pipes at ceiling level and on full view. Ok I'm biased but I think neatly installed and copper-saddle-clipped gas pipes are a Thing Of Beauty.

 

People often comment on the pleasing appearance of the high level gas pipes in our boat. Honest! :-)

 

Mike

 

Your refering to the 2002 edition of the BSS. I am refering to the later 2005 edition.

[mayalld]

Your refering to the 2002 edition of the BSS. I am refering to the later 2005 edition.

 

The incident took place in 2004!!