Where to paint the white mark???

[Guest]

As seen on this bridge in Gargrave on the L&L with the rather nice boat passing under.

 

 

I guess this one was pretty simple as it was all pretty much in a straight line.

 

Not all bridges were so simple I guess as some were on bends some very tight, sometimes the mark would be well to the side of where you think you should aim for but un-failingly if you aimed for the white mark you never had a problem, so how do BW work out where to paint them???? :lol:

[Chris-B]

edited to remove rant

Edited November 3, 2009 by Baldock

[Guest]

No irony and a pity I couldn't post a pic of a more challenging 'ole, but there are some challenging ones on bends on the L&L but no matter what, if you aimed at the white mark you went through no prob's.

 

Edited to add sorry I didn't realise you were taking the Pi$$

Edited November 2, 2009 by MJG

[Chris-B]

edited to remove rant

Edited November 3, 2009 by Baldock

[Guest]

yes but

 

WHY ?

 

boat+canal or the same dimensions as boat= go through the ole !

 

Simples

 

Chris

 

So then why do BW bother painting them ??

 

My guess is that they know not all users of the canal are sm@rt @rses and there might just be some out there who only do this a couple of times each year and any help we can offer them might just be appreciated, FWIW I'm glad they do.

 

I was going to say I'm sorry I asked the question now but on reflection I ain't...

[Chris-B]

edited to remove rant

Edited November 3, 2009 by Baldock

[Guest]

Without cast any inference on your boating skills

but

 

Do you really need a white line to get your boat through a bridge ole ?

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Wonders if the RYA offer a Braille boating qualification

Sorry Chris life is really too short If you haven't got it yet you never will.....

 

The reference to the Braille boating course (in grey) might only be funny to those who don't have visual difficulties but as it happens I do, so of course I've just realised BW painted those marks just for me... thanks BW.

[Chris-B]

edited to remove rant

Edited November 3, 2009 by Baldock

[Dalesman]

The white line is off set and marks the MIDDLE of the WATER channel under the bridge, not the middle of the bridge hole.. Simple..!!! The L & L short boats were 14ft 6in wide not 6ft 10in, and sailed at night as well. These lines have be there for years and years, long before all this H & S crap.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Dalesman

[Guest]

The white line is off set and marks the MIDDLE of the WATER channel under the bridge, not the middle of the bridge hole.. Simple..!!! The L & L short boats were 14ft 6in wide not 6ft 10in, and sailed at night as well.

 

Thanks, (sensible) reply appreciated.

 

Helps me aim the couple of times a year I do this boating malarkey too.....

[alan_fincher]

The white line is off set and marks the MIDDLE of the WATER channel under the bridge, not the middle of the bridge hole.. Simple..!!! The L & L short boats were 14ft 6in wide not 6ft 10in, and sailed at night as well. These lines have be there for years and years, long before all this H & S crap.

So I guess the answer to the original question "where to paint the white mark", is over the remnants of the mark that's already there ?

 

Even BW might be able to get that right!

 

Actually thinking of (narrow) locks on the T&M that have the "cill" marker on each side of the lock painted at a stagger of about 3 feet, forget that last remark!

 

Were many L&L short boats really as wide as 14 feet 6 ins ?

 

BW only quote the maximum width of the L&L as 14' 3", and several short boats seem to navigate the Grand Union OK, which isn't really guaranteed for anything quite that wide.

 

We watched one through several GU locks the other day, and I wouldn't have judged it to be over 14 feet - there was more slack in there than with a pair of working narrow boats, I'd say.

[magpie patrick]

The white line is off set and marks the MIDDLE of the WATER channel under the bridge, not the middle of the bridge hole.. Simple..!!! The L & L short boats were 14ft 6in wide not 6ft 10in, and sailed at night as well. These lines have be there for years and years, long before all this H & S crap.

 

They've certainly been there a long time, Dad remembers them as a kid, during WW2 he wasa growing up in Whins Cottage which has a view over the canal at Wheelton. Perhaps they were black-out measures? Dad always told me they were over the centre of the water, and on a dark night I can see that a steerer might not be able to see the towpath.

 

It was this war time residence that led to dad's love of canals, which I inherited...

[Moley]

Is this specific to the L & L ? I can't say I've ever noticed any white marks.

[magpie patrick]

Is this specific to the L & L ? I can't say I've ever noticed any white marks.

 

A number of canals had the structures outlined in white but I don't know of any other with centre bridge channel markings. Rolt makes reference to this in Green and Silver, commenting that on the Grand Canal of Ireland there were no such markings and the boats were only allowed red lights not white, with sometimes lethal consequences.

 

I assume the L and L did it because they felt it wasn't easy to judge. The one illustrated has it in the centre of the arch because there is no towpath.

[Pluto]

Is this specific to the L & L ? I can't say I've ever noticed any white marks.

The white marks were probably first painted in the 1870s when the L&LC Co introduced a 24 hour flyboat service. The marks on bridges are over the centre of the channel and certainly make steering a short boat easier as you just line up the chimney on the bow deck with the mark. On an empty short boat, it is quite difficult to see the sides of the bow from the stern, so the marks really do help. Short boats steer differently to narrow boats, in that you tend to put the bow where it needs to go and then use the engine to swing the stern into position. They pivot around the bow rather than partway towards the stern as with a narrow boat.

 

To make working at night better, some locks in Lancashire, where boat numbers were greatest, also had gas lighting installed. I have never been certain if it was at all the locks, or just where the lock keeper was based so that it made recording the passage of boats easier.

 

You can also find white marks on the lower entrance walls to some of the locks in Yorkshire, and it may be that the maintenance yards there continued the tradition longer than in Lancashire, or perhaps they had better steerers in Lancashire. Surprisingly, for something that makes steering a wide boat safer, BW don't now repaint the marks because of H&S restrictions - you have to stand on the roof of a boat which can move about to paint them. It is a pity because the mark, and the white line around the arch, are such a distinctive feature of the canal. Far be it from me to encourage individuals to repaint them.

[Chertsey]

The white line is off set and marks the MIDDLE of the WATER channel under the bridge, not the middle of the bridge hole.. Simple..!!! The L & L short boats were 14ft 6in wide not 6ft 10in, and sailed at night as well. These lines have be there for years and years, long before all this H & S crap.

Useful then for getting a wide boat through the bridgehole in the dark... hopefully not necessary for getting a narrow boat through a wide bridgehole in broad daylight no matter how inexperienced!

 

I did my first narrow boat steering on the Macclesfield and only learned afterwards that it has notoriously narrow bridgeholes. It was hell at the time but I highly recommend it, as everything after seemed easy by comparison!

 

By the way, being good at something is not the same thing as being a smartarse.

[Timleech]

Were many L&L short boats really as wide as 14 feet 6 ins ?

 

BW only quote the maximum width of the L&L as 14' 3", and several short boats seem to navigate the Grand Union OK, which isn't really guaranteed for anything quite that wide.

 

ISTR 14'4" used to be quoted. When we bought a wooden Short Boat in the 1960s we had a choice of two, the TOM and the EDITH. One of the reasons for choosing the Edith was that she was a bit narrower, at just over 14'. Can't remember the details but I think the TOM was getting on for 14' 6" & we even in our innocent youth thought that might cause problems. EDITH looked the better boat anyway, & Albert Blundell must have thought so too as he would have taken a lower price for the TOM. I think we offered him 50 quid for the EDITH, he would have taken that for the TOM but we settled on £75 for the EDITH. Asking price for either I believe was £100, both were former motor boats which had been dumb boats for a good few years.

 

Edited to add that both boats had been confined to the Bridgewater and L&L Leigh Branch for quite a few years, where precise beam wouldn't have been an issue.

 

The white marks could certainly be handy even in daylight as a guide with a Short Boat on some of the more awkward bridges, but with a narrowboat in a 15' wide bridge hole..

 

 

Tim

Edited November 3, 2009 by Timleech

[gaggle]

Judgeing by the damage to some bridges they could all do with the centre marks being painted on them and maybe some signs at 300 ,200 and 100 yrd marks stating , APPROACHING BRIDGE AHEAD GET IN LINE WITH HOLE.

[Guest]

Useful then for getting a wide boat through the bridgehole in the dark... hopefully not necessary for getting a narrow boat through a wide bridgehole in broad daylight no matter how inexperienced!

 

There are one or two tricky ones on or very near bends (not as in the photo I posted) where personally found it very useful to have a mark to aim for - probably not 100% necessary but it made some of the bridges a lot easier for me personally and when I let one of the crew take a turn who had never steered a NB in their entire lives.

 

The one that I remember in particular is the bridge next to the Anchor pub at Salterforth (sp??)

Edited November 3, 2009 by MJG

[mikevye]

Nothing whatsoever to do with bridge width, the D.O.T send apprentices to out of the way structures to practice on then when they are qualified they are allowed to go and paint the real thing on the M6!

[DHutch]

Yeah, having not done much on the L&L i had to refer to the photo to see what we where talking about, however i do recongnise them and im sure they exist.

- Most bridges [on the rest of the sytem] dont have them, although many arches are highlighted in white paint. As said, the only logical place for the mark, is in the center of the water!

 

 

 

Daniel

[Guest]

- Most bridges dont have them,

 

Daniel

 

Sorry Daniel but I think you are mistaken, certainly if we are talking fixed bridges between Nelson and Shipley every bridge we went through in August this year had one.

 

The mark may have faded due to maintenance reasons referred to in a post above, but they all had one.

 

This was taken at Kildwick in 2003

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/uploads/m...02_1_131140.jpg

Edited November 3, 2009 by MJG

[Dalesman]

Useful then for getting a wide boat through the bridgehole in the dark... hopefully not necessary for getting a narrow boat through a wide bridgehole in broad daylight no matter how inexperienced!

 

I did my first narrow boat steering on the Macclesfield and only learned afterwards that it has notoriously narrow bridgeholes. It was hell at the time but I highly recommend it, as everything after seemed easy by comparison!

 

By the way, being good at something is not the same thing as being a smartarse.

Looking at the amount of paint left on the side of the L & L swing bridges from Narrow Boats then perhaps they should have a white line on the water too.

 

 

 

Sorry Daniel but I think you are mistaken, certainly if we are talking fixed bridges between Nelson and Shipley every bridge we went through in August this year had one.

 

The mark may have faded due to maintenance reasons referred to in a post above, but they all had one.

L & L short boat notice the white line on the bridge

Edited November 3, 2009 by Dalesman

[Pluto]

Looking at the amount of paint left on the side of the L & L swing bridges from Narrow Boats then perhaps they should have a white line on the water too.

 

 

 

 

L & L short boat notice the white line on the bridge

I think this photo explains why the bridges needed a white line. The cargo is wool, one of the main general cargoes on the canal and which is slightly lighter than cotton. To get the maximum tonnage on board it would be loaded until it would just pass under bridges. On motor boats, the steerer had to stand on the engine room cabin to see where he was going, whilst horse boat steerers used planks fitted across the stern rails with a special tiller. Its an early wartime photo, which is why the young lad is carrying his gas mask, while the NEPTUNE is giving the local maintenance gang a tow.

[twbm]

The white marks were probably first painted in the 1870s when the L&LC Co introduced a 24 hour flyboat service. The marks on bridges are over the centre of the channel and certainly make steering a short boat easier as you just line up the chimney on the bow deck with the mark. On an empty short boat, it is quite difficult to see the sides of the bow from the stern, so the marks really do help. Short boats steer differently to narrow boats, in that you tend to put the bow where it needs to go and then use the engine to swing the stern into position. They pivot around the bow rather than partway towards the stern as with a narrow boat.

 

To make working at night better, some locks in Lancashire, where boat numbers were greatest, also had gas lighting installed. I have never been certain if it was at all the locks, or just where the lock keeper was based so that it made recording the passage of boats easier.

 

You can also find white marks on the lower entrance walls to some of the locks in Yorkshire, and it may be that the maintenance yards there continued the tradition longer than in Lancashire, or perhaps they had better steerers in Lancashire. Surprisingly, for something that makes steering a wide boat safer, BW don't now repaint the marks because of H&S restrictions - you have to stand on the roof of a boat which can move about to paint them. It is a pity because the mark, and the white line around the arch, are such a distinctive feature of the canal. Far be it from me to encourage individuals to repaint them.

 

Is that Pluto the wooden short boat?