Filling A Propane Tank At A Petrol Station? Safe??

[nb Innisfree]

Ref. rupturing cyls, all LPG cyls have pressure release built in.

[Chris Pink]

It seems inevitable that some people would end up putting in too much, either by accident, or design, and if they have done so, it's a potential accident waiting to happen. (They are hardly likely to let some out, even if they know they have, are they ?

 

this 'it seems inevitable' approach to health and safety, come on Alan, it also 'seems inevitable 'sooner or later someone will choke on a chicken bone and die.

 

BAN CHICKENS NOW.

 

This heath-robinson device is inherently dangerous

 

 

Gawd, you're talking some twaddle this week, Dave, even for you - it looks quite well machined to me and how is it any more 'inherently dangerous' than the screw you have in your propane bottle at the moment?

 

By all means 'twitch you curtains' and report it to ebay but i would be very surprised if this device was illegal in itself (you can buy fillers all over the place)

 

and if you ban this it won't stop people trying to refill bottles it will just result in home made adaptors which will be 'inherently dangerous'

[luctor et emergo]

this 'it seems inevitable' approach to health and safety, come on Alan, it also 'seems inevitable 'sooner or later someone will choke on a chicken bone and die.

 

BAN CHICKENS NOW.

 

 

 

 

Gawd, you're talking some twaddle this week, Dave, even for you - it looks quite well machined to me and how is it any more 'inherently dangerous' than the screw you have in your propane bottle at the moment?

By all means 'twitch you curtains' and report it to ebay but i would be very surprised if this device was illegal in itself (you can buy fillers all over the place)

 

and if you ban this it won't stop people trying to refill bottles it will just result in home made adaptors which will be 'inherently dangerous'

 

The problem is that the photo can be a sample or stock image, and the device that you receive may not be save at all. The screw that is already in the bottle is proven to be fit for the purpose, the item from ebay is not.

[mayalld]

this 'it seems inevitable' approach to health and safety, come on Alan, it also 'seems inevitable 'sooner or later someone will choke on a chicken bone and die.

 

BAN CHICKENS NOW.

 

 

 

 

Gawd, you're talking some twaddle this week, Dave, even for you - it looks quite well machined to me and how is it any more 'inherently dangerous' than the screw you have in your propane bottle at the moment?

 

By all means 'twitch you curtains' and report it to ebay but i would be very surprised if this device was illegal in itself (you can buy fillers all over the place)

 

and if you ban this it won't stop people trying to refill bottles it will just result in home made adaptors which will be 'inherently dangerous'

 

The device isn't inherently dangerous in terms of a lack of manufacturing quality.

 

It is inherently dangerous, because it allows people who have no real idea of the dangers of overfilling a gas bottle to do so.

[alan_fincher]

this 'it seems inevitable' approach to health and safety, come on Alan, it also 'seems inevitable 'sooner or later someone will choke on a chicken bone and die.

 

BAN CHICKENS NOW.

I'm happy that chicken eaters die as a result of lack of care about the bones. (Well I'm not really!). However, they will only kill themselves, (unless a paramedic rushing to their aid wipes someone out when crashing red lights). Darwin might have something to say on the topic of those who kill themselves eating chicken, or unnecessary "death by food", (why couldn't that bloody pretzel have done for Bush! ).

 

This other thing is clearly not in the same league. Without a safeguard that people cannot create cylinders that are lethally over-filled, it clearly seems bloody dangerous to me.

 

Do you really trust everybody who buys one to....

 

1) Always connect it safely.

2) Only ever use a completely empty cylinder

3) Always know exactly how much gas in litres constitutes 13 KG, (or whatever)

4) Never get distracted and never put more than that in.

5) Always disconnect it safely

Etc, Etc.

 

Some numpty will think they can top up part full tanks, perhaps because a price or duty rise is imminent, and they want to fill up at the old price. Or simply think because it will still go in, it is safe to continue to put it in. (Less visits to filling station further reduces cost of refilling, doesn't it ?)

 

You have seen me posting long enough to know that I rail about thinks that are completely OTT (in my view) safety wise, (cill signs, narrow lock bollards, bollards to stop drivers entering cut, locks surrounded by handrails, ladders "lidded" over, etc.), but when the consequence of getting it wrong is as likely to kill or maim innocent bystanders as yourself, then I am in favour of regulation.

 

Unless these things are foolproof against overfilling, (and fairly obviously they are not), they should not be legally sold IMO.

[mayalld]

I'm happy that chicken eaters die as a result of lack of care about the bones. (Well I'm not really!). However, they will only kill themselves, (unless a paramedic rushing to their aid wipes someone out when crashing red lights). Darwin might have something to say on the topic of those who kill themselves eating chicken, or unnecessary "death by food", (why couldn't that bloody pretzel have done for Bush! ).

 

This other thing is clearly not in the same league. Without a safeguard that people cannot create cylinders that are lethally over-filled, it clearly seems bloody dangerous to me.

 

Do you really trust everybody who buys one to....

 

1) Always connect it safely.

2) Only ever use a completely empty cylinder

3) Always know exactly how much gas in litres constitutes 13 KG, (or whatever)

4) Never get distracted and never put more than that in.

5) Always disconnect it safely

Etc, Etc.

 

Some numpty will think they can top up part full tanks, perhaps because a price or duty rise is imminent, and they want to fill up at the old price. Or simply think because it will still go in, it is safe to continue to put it in. (Less visits to filling station further reduces cost of refilling, doesn't it ?)

 

You have seen me posting long enough to know that I rail about thinks that are completely OTT (in my view) safety wise, (cill signs, narrow lock bollards, bollards to stop drivers entering cut, locks surrounded by handrails, ladders "lidded" over, etc.), but when the consequence of getting it wrong is as likely to kill or maim innocent bystanders as yourself, then I am in favour of regulation.

 

Unless these things are foolproof against overfilling, (and fairly obviously they are not), they should not be legally sold IMO.

 

We appear to be in agreement.

 

Oh, and I have also contacted Lincolnshire trading standards.

 

The fluffy bunny touchy-feely, "yeah, this is a blow against capitalism", how dare you interfere in other people's lives brigade should feel free to heap the abuse on, but I care not.

 

This device in untrained hands WILL undoubtedly cause a serious accident sooner or later.

[Chris Pink]

The device isn't inherently dangerous in terms of a lack of manufacturing quality.

 

It is inherently dangerous, because it allows people who have no real idea of the dangers of overfilling a gas bottle to do so.

 

so the existing bottle in my gas locker - i could get that out and open the tap, it makes a nice hissing noise - i have no real idea of the danger so i took it down the pub to show my friends, we started making pretty bubbles in the beer.

 

Get real Dave. It doesn't take any more education to alert people to the dangers of overfilling than it does to alert them to the dangers of sticking nails up their noses.

[alan_fincher]

A further thought on this.....

 

As I understand it the directive from the BSS office to its examiners says that if they find on a boat the type of genuinely refillable cylinder that can be over-filled, they should walk away and proceed no further with the examination.

 

The potential availability of the eBay device effectively makes any Calor style Propane cylinder one which could have been over-filled by a self-fill numpty, rather than a professionally refilled one.

 

Perhaps taking it to absurdity, but shouldn't the BSS examiner walk away from any boat with a standard Calor style cylinder, because it may be one that is over-filled ?

[Chris Pink]

I'm happy that chicken eaters die as a result of lack of care about the bones. (Well I'm not really!). However, they will only kill themselves, (unless a paramedic rushing to their aid wipes someone out when crashing red lights). Darwin might have something to say on the topic of those who kill themselves eating chicken, or unnecessary "death by food", (why couldn't that bloody pretzel have done for Bush! ).

 

This other thing is clearly not in the same league. Without a safeguard that people cannot create cylinders that are lethally over-filled, it clearly seems bloody dangerous to me.

 

Do you really trust everybody who buys one to....

 

1) Always connect it safely.

2) Only ever use a completely empty cylinder

3) Always know exactly how much gas in litres constitutes 13 KG, (or whatever)

4) Never get distracted and never put more than that in.

5) Always disconnect it safely

Etc, Etc.

 

Some numpty will think they can top up part full tanks, perhaps because a price or duty rise is imminent, and they want to fill up at the old price. Or simply think because it will still go in, it is safe to continue to put it in. (Less visits to filling station further reduces cost of refilling, doesn't it ?)

 

You have seen me posting long enough to know that I rail about thinks that are completely OTT (in my view) safety wise, (cill signs, narrow lock bollards, bollards to stop drivers entering cut, locks surrounded by handrails, ladders "lidded" over, etc.), but when the consequence of getting it wrong is as likely to kill or maim innocent bystanders as yourself, then I am in favour of regulation.

 

Unless these things are foolproof against overfilling, (and fairly obviously they are not), they should not be legally sold IMO.

 

That's all very well but you are ok with doing most of these things with petrol which i still hold as dangerous as propane, possibly more dangerous being a liquid (petrol fire on water anybody?).

 

The discussion around this concept is simply that it is new. You are used to dealing with other dangerous and explosive substances why not propane?

 

And Dave might get this one banned but you can still buy almost the same piece of kit from no end of other suppliers.

 

You can't ban things because the use they might be put to is dangerous. I take it you don't drive then Dave?

 

OK it would be nice to have an overfilling safety device but to trust to one would also be a touch foolish.

[mayalld]

That's all very well but you are ok with doing most of these things with petrol which i still hold as dangerous as propane, possibly more dangerous being a liquid (petrol fire on water anybody?).

 

The discussion around this concept is simply that it is new. You are used to dealing with other dangerous and explosive substances why not propane?

 

And Dave might get this one banned but you can still buy almost the same piece of kit from no end of other suppliers.

 

The fact that you simply can't see how much more dangerous this is goes a long way to prove my point.

 

I've added the BSS office to the list of people contacted about this. I'm sure they have a number of good contacts in trading standards to get this device off the market.

[churchward]

A further thought on this.....

 

As I understand it the directive from the BSS office to its examiners says that if they find on a boat the type of genuinely refillable cylinder that can be over-filled, they should walk away and proceed no further with the examination.

 

The potential availability of the eBay device effectively makes any Calor style Propane cylinder one which could have been over-filled by a self-fill numpty, rather than a professionally refilled one.

 

Perhaps taking it to absurdity, but shouldn't the BSS examiner walk away from any boat with a standard Calor style cylinder, because it may be one that is over-filled ?

I take your point but unless it leaks or explodes how would you know it is over filled by just looking at it? I guess you could find out by weighing the cylinder but that wouldn't be normal practice.

 

I must admit the danger of over filling is worrying with this kind of self refill device.

 

Mind you my own laziness will probably save me here (I knew there was a reason for it! ) I am not sure I could be bothered to put an empty cylinder in the car and drive to the nearest LPG pump in a petrol station (could be several miles from canal where we are) and refill when I can just wander round to the Marina sales point and swap it over.

[mikevye]

so the existing bottle in my gas locker - i could get that out and open the tap, it makes a nice hissing noise - i have no real idea of the danger so i took it down the pub to show my friends, we started making pretty bubbles in the beer.

 

Get real Dave. It doesn't take any more education to alert people to the dangers of overfilling than it does to alert them to the dangers of sticking nails up their noses.

 

I can't believe that someone as intelligent as yourself is taking this stand on this particular issue and to compare liquid fuel against a gaseous substance under pressure is ridiculous.

[Chris Pink]

I can't believe that someone as intelligent as yourself is taking this stand on this particular issue and to compare liquid fuel against a gaseous substance under pressure is ridiculous.

 

you may have a point ;}

[Biggles]

So from the general discussion so far 3 clear things have become apparent.

 

1. Overfilling being by far the princible one.

2. Quality of the product.

3. The ability of the filler up er.

 

So assuming only empty bottles were filled to a correct level/weight by a diligent person using a well made bit of kit it should be no more dangerous than filling your car at an LPG?

 

Does anyone know the weight of LPG /P/L and the pressure in a full LPG cylinder.

 

Clearly bottles are filled commercially by weight which explains the tare weigh printed on all cylinders. If the weight per L at the pump was know and the button hit, where is the problem? (Devils advocate question)!

 

One poster mentioned that all LPG cylinders are fitted with an safety valve. Ultimately this would blow if it was overfilled, no? or is it there to accommodate expansion in a heated bottle?

 

Like most things of this nature I would expect a HUGE redundancy in the capabilities of the cylinders especially when you consider the use and indeed the misuse of them the world over, and the length of time they are in unregulated service.

 

Biggles

[mayalld]

So from the general discussion so far 3 clear things have become apparent.

 

1. Overfilling being by far the princible one.

2. Quality of the product.

3. The ability of the filler up er.

 

So assuming only empty bottles were filled to a correct level/weight by a diligent person using a well made bit of kit it should be no more dangerous than filling your car at an LPG?

 

Does anyone know the weight of LPG /P/L and the pressure in a full LPG cylinder.

 

Clearly bottles are filled commercially by weight which explains the tare weigh printed on all cylinders. If the weight per L at the pump was know and the button hit, where is the problem? (Devils advocate question)!

 

One poster mentioned that all LPG cylinders are fitted with an safety valve. Ultimately this would blow if it was overfilled, no? or is it there to accommodate expansion in a heated bottle?

 

Like most things of this nature I would expect a HUGE redundancy in the capabilities of the cylinders especially when you consider the use and indeed the misuse of them the world over, and the length of time they are in unregulated service.

 

Biggles

 

And the fact that you make such an assumption proves the point.

 

You don't KNOW what safety margin is allowed, so you shouldn't be playing with such things.

[Nickhlx]

So from the general discussion so far 3 clear things have become apparent.

 

1. Overfilling being by far the princible one.

2. Quality of the product.

3. The ability of the filler up er.

 

So assuming only empty bottles were filled to a correct level/weight by a diligent person using a well made bit of kit it should be no more dangerous than filling your car at an LPG?

 

Does anyone know the weight of LPG /P/L and the pressure in a full LPG cylinder.

 

Clearly bottles are filled commercially by weight which explains the tare weigh printed on all cylinders. If the weight per L at the pump was know and the button hit, where is the problem? (Devils advocate question)!

 

One poster mentioned that all LPG cylinders are fitted with an safety valve. Ultimately this would blow if it was overfilled, no? or is it there to accommodate expansion in a heated bottle?

 

Like most things of this nature I would expect a HUGE redundancy in the capabilities of the cylinders especially when you consider the use and indeed the misuse of them the world over, and the length of time they are in unregulated service.

 

Biggles

 

I cant believe this debate is even taking place ! Of course it could be dangerous if proper instruction were not given to the user. So is a carving knife or even a Biro, if you want it to be...

 

Anyone contemplating using it would no doubt read the instructions, and then know a little bit about propane or butane even if they didn't before. I bet there are significant warnings about how to refill contained in the instructions, and it would be very presumptious to condemn the product unless you have seen the instructions and whether they clearly fail to warn adequately....

 

I think its the sort of device that whoever would buy it would make one for themselves ( or have it made for them) if they couldn't buy it, and even thinking like that would suggest to me that they have a bit of an inkling of common sense about them...

 

There are far worse "hazards" around us if we care to look for them - some even under the kitchen sink !

 

Nick

[alan_fincher]

One poster mentioned that all LPG cylinders are fitted with an safety valve. Ultimately this would blow if it was overfilled, no? or is it there to accommodate expansion in a heated bottle?

I'm curious about this.

 

It sounds logical that all cylinders might have a protection "safety valve" against catastrophic failure.

 

But if they do, why is there such concern whenever LPG cylinders are stored at the site of a blaze.

 

Surely they would not then explode, (as they are videoed doing), but would instead just turn into giant flame-throwers.

 

Fire-fighters seem petrified of them going up, not just issuing out sheets of flame.

 

We have a few fire-fighters on here, so can someone enlighten us. Do Propane cylinders ever go "bang" or just "whoomf" ?

[mayalld]

I cant believe this debate is even taking place ! Of course it could be dangerous if proper instruction were not given to the user. So is a carving knife or even a Biro, if you want it to be...

 

Anyone contemplating using it would no doubt read the instructions, and then know a little bit about propane or butane even if they didn't before. I bet there are significant warnings about how to refill contained in the instructions, and it would be very presumptious to condemn the product unless you have seen the instructions and whether they clearly fail to warn adequately....

 

Get real!

 

Do you honestly believe that everybody who buys one of these will do so with their eyes open about the dangers?

[luctor et emergo]

I cant believe this debate is even taking place ! Of course it could be dangerous if proper instruction were not given to the user. So is a carving knife or even a Biro, if you want it to be...

 

Anyone contemplating using it would no doubt read the instructions, and then know a little bit about propane or butane even if they didn't before. I bet there are significant warnings about how to refill contained in the instructions, and it would be very presumptious to condemn the product unless you have seen the instructions and whether they clearly fail to warn adequately....

I think its the sort of device that whoever would buy it would make one for themselves ( or have it made for them) if they couldn't buy it, and even thinking like that would suggest to me that they have a bit of an inkling of common sense about them...

 

There are far worse "hazards" around us if we care to look for them - some even under the kitchen sink !

 

Nick

 

According to the feedback on evilbay, NO instructions are included...:

 

thanks, came quickly, though an instruction leaflet would have been handy.

 

 

Lightning fast service, it was here before i ordered it A+++++++++++++++++

 

the second feedback requires no comment, it just illustrates the kind of brain that may be using this device at a petrolstation near you...

[alan_fincher]

There are far worse "hazards" around us if we care to look for them - some even under the kitchen sink !

I can't possibly agree with your stance on this.

 

It is obvious from the debate on here that few if any of us have any idea about how dangerous this could be, (myself included), and if our collective thoughts can't reach concesus, what chance has one person buying one, apparently with no instructions as to how to use it.

 

The difference is you are unlikely to kill me or someone outside your family, (accidentally at least!), with anything you keep underneath your kitchen sink.

 

If you overfill a cylinder, and put it in a boat you are cruising the waterways with, do any of us really understand what the worst consequences might be ?

 

A great shame that Rob at the BSS gets less involved oin here now than he did - I doubt they would rubber stamp this as a perfectly acceptable way of getting your boat Propane cheaper, somehow.

 

If I'm over-reacting, I'll happily back down, but I don't get the impression that people making the pronouncements understand LPG in it's liquid form well enough to say that nothing can go wrong, frankly.

 

If, like me, Dave is wrong, and it represents no danger, I'm sure eBay, BSS, trading standards etc will be happy for them to remain on open sale, will they not ?

[Nickhlx]

According to the feedback on evilbay, NO instructions are included...:

 

thanks, came quickly, though an instruction leaflet would have been handy.

 

 

Lightning fast service, it was here before i ordered it A+++++++++++++++++

 

the second feedback requires no comment, it just illustrates the kind of brain that may be using this device at a petrolstation near you...

 

 

In that case, if no instructions are supplied then of course it's of more concern.

 

However, the danger is from a cylinder being filled to 100%, AND then being increased in temperature - I don't think the problem would occur at the filling station, but maybe a little later down the road, assuming it was able to be filled so completely.

 

Can anyone confirm what the pressure release mechanism/system is on the "standard" Calor gas etc bottles ?

 

Nick

[luctor et emergo]

On the subject of 'knowledgable' amateurs filling their Calor Gas (other gas providers are available) at a pump, how fast does a forecourt pump dispense the LPG? I.E. how long will it take to fill a 13 KG bottle? And can you dispense the amount accurately at the pump? I have no first hand experience with LPG pumps, so I wondered. You see, I have seen people trying to fill their (diesel)cars at a high speed HGV pump, which inevitably means a pair of ruined shoes... I did once intervene when a twit was going to fill his plastic jerry can (5 liter) at a high speed pump.

 

Somebody WILL overfill his bottle, because lugging it to the petrol station is to heavy, and

 

"if I over fill it just a little, it won't harm"

"these margins are over engineered anyway, to be on the safe side"

"I'm going to use it straight away, so it won't be overfilled for long"

 

Somebody, somewhere, will make the newspaper. Or the evening news, if he gets it wrong in the right place...

[mayalld]

On the subject of 'knowledgable' amateurs filling their Calor Gas (other gas providers are available) at a pump, how fast does a forecourt pump dispense the LPG? I.E. how long will it take to fill a 13 KG bottle? And can you dispense the amount accurately at the pump? I have no first hand experience with LPG pumps, so I wondered. You see, I have seen people trying to fill their (diesel)cars at a high speed HGV pump, which inevitably means a pair of ruined shoes... I did once intervene when a twit was going to fill his plastic jerry can (5 liter) at a high speed pump.

 

Somebody WILL overfill his bottle, because lugging it to the petrol station is to heavy, and

 

"if I over fill it just a little, it won't harm"

"these margins are over engineered anyway, to be on the safe side"

"I'm going to use it straight away, so it won't be overfilled for long"

 

Somebody, somewhere, will make the newspaper. Or the evening news, if he gets it wrong in the right place...

 

They will also probably make a rather nasty mess that will have to be scraped up.

[mikevye]

As a former Engineer I installed a fragmentation plant the basic description was a rotating drum with steel hammers attached, encased in a steel box the purpose of which was to rip cars apart and deliver steel fragments ready to go to a steel plant. Some idiot decided to leave a propane bottle in the boot of a car presumably to add weight which was not noticed by the crane driver loading the machine. The resultant explosion blew out the windows of the control tower severely damaged the machine and could be heard for miles. Not dangerous eh!

[luctor et emergo]

In that case, if no instructions are supplied then of course it's of more concern.

 

However, the danger is from a cylinder being filled to 100%, AND then being increased in temperature - I don't think the problem would occur at the filling station, but maybe a little later down the road, assuming it was able to be filled so completely.

 

Can anyone confirm what the pressure release mechanism/system is on the "standard" Calor gas etc bottles ?

 

Nick

 

 

I don't think that these bottles have a mechanism, other than the fact that they are only filled to a safe amount, to allow for expansion.

 

I wonder what happens if an unobservant punter tries to overfill the bottle by more than 100% Do the LPG pumps have an auto cut off like the petrol pumps? Or will it fill the bottle untill the weakest part goes pop, and spill the LPG all over the forecourt?