Boat Builder

[hydrophobia]

I hate to give you a negative at a time when you are so low, but did you by any chance tell them this sad tale of woe, thus detailing exactly how weak your position was? Or were you shrewd and kept the details to yourself? If you set yourself up for a kicking you will likely get one. They are a business and their first duty is to be profitable. £35k to £32k was a fairly generous stitch up, some would have offered £25k!

 

Hi, Obviously they knew our story because I wouldn't have stitched anyone up with that boat which is why we didn't sell the boat to the public, the boat needs to be put right first.I even read out the survey to them over the phone.They knew all our story from our nightmare build to the trustees saying the boat belonged to our boatbuilders estate, which was a very worrying time. Had they dropped the price earlier we could have found another buyer but they did it on the day knowing our backs were against the wall.

[WJM]

"Had they dropped the price earlier we could have found another buyer but they did it on the day knowing our backs were against the wall."

 

 

That is called business, places like the City of London run on moves like that. And before you say The City is full of crooks and nothing to do with you, where do you think your pension and other investments do their growing!

 

A better course was to say absolutely nothing about the boat to anybody, then when you had possession, offer it for sale as is.

 

Business and emotion are a dangerous mix!

Edited October 1, 2009 by WJM

[deletedaccount]

If you think running a business frees you from moral responsibility you're wrong. Yeah, you can use the "well I did it to make more money" excuse but it doesn't make it any less unethical.

[Naughty Cal]

If you think running a business frees you from moral responsibility you're wrong. Yeah, you can use the "well I did it to make more money" excuse but it doesn't make it any less unethical.

 

Such is life. All businesses are out to make money.

[WJM]

I know nothing about Orchard Marine other than cruising past their marina a few times, but I would be reassured by this story. Lopping £3k off the offering price when they had been told the vendor was in a hole, suggest a degree of business acumen that is reassuring. And before you all jump in and say haggling is unethical, have you ever bought a house? Bet you did a bit of stand-off haggling over that!

[deletedaccount]

I understand that, but using it as an excuse to be unethical and normalise shitty behaviour is a cop-out.

 

Those engaged in shafting others for a living should at least admit they're being unethical. Rather than pretending to themselves it's all in a days work. It's perfectly possible to make a living and *gasp* not screw people in dire situations over.

[alan_fincher]

Do all liverpool boats have that funny 'scroll' thing on the pointy end? And is it unique to them?

 

 

a) no, but all of them built since about 2000 have that rather handsome scroll.

no.

 

We have seen them where they do not, almost certainly under 9 years old. I was told that it is (or was) possible to specify a LB shell that didn't have it.

 

Not sure which is correct now!

[tomsk]

If you think running a business frees you from moral responsibility you're wrong. Yeah, you can use the "well I did it to make more money" excuse but it doesn't make it any less unethical.

 

 

Unfortunately Directors have a duty to realise the the largest value for their business assets/services. Receivers even more so. Ethics don't come in to it I'm afraid, thats not to say that I don't feel deeply for your situation.

[WJM]

Unethical Shi**y behaviour is the very bedrock of business. It was also the bedrock of mammoth-fueled caveman society. We have a legal framework to set boundaries and this sad story happened entirely within the law. Buying for X (or X-1) and selling for X+1 was considered exploitation in the Soviet Union. In the evil capitalist West it is life.

 

It was naive, they set themselves up and they took a fall. It is not a negative reflection on the purchaser.

[deletedaccount]

I know nothing about Orchard Marine other than cruising past their marina a few times, but I would be reassured by this story. Lopping £3k off the offering price when they had been told the vendor was in a hole, suggest a degree of business acumen that is reassuring. And before you all jump in and say haggling is unethical, have you ever bought a house? Bet you did a bit of stand-off haggling over that!

 

Great. I love working with people like that. They'll never cut corners or screw you over, oh no.

 

Unfortunately Directors have a duty to realise the the largest value for their business assets/services. Receivers even more so. Ethics don't come in to it I'm afraid, thats not to say that I don't feel deeply for your situation.

 

It's not my situation, I just love the way one of the worst aspects of capitalism makes excuses for itself.

[WJM]

"Great. I love working with people like that. They'll never cut corners or screw you over, oh no."

 

Well I hope they buy their material and subassemblies competitively, and watch the supply market for opportunities. Complacency is the most common cause of going bust.

[deletedaccount]

Unethical Shi**y behaviour is the very bedrock of business. It was also the bedrock of mammoth-fueled caveman society. We have a legal framework to set boundaries and this sad story happened entirely within the law. Buying for X (or X-1) and selling for X+1 was considered exploitation in the Soviet Union. In the evil capitalist West it is life.

 

It was naive, they set themselves up and they took a fall. It is not a negative reflection on the purchaser.

 

o rly?

 

Just because something is lawful doesn't make it ethical. Your moral framework would have to be either really screwed up or totally naive to believe that.

 

We basically agree here though. Capitalism is a system of exploitation, which is not to say the soviets did it any better.

[tomsk]

Great. I love working with people like that. They'll never cut corners or screw you over, oh no.

 

 

 

It's not my situation, I just love the way one of the worst aspects of capitalism makes excuses for itself.

 

 

I am not making excuses for anyone! However that is the way the system in place operates (nb I purposely didnt use the word 'works'). If your up for Revolution, count me in! I never stated that I liked it, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the status quo.

 

 

Edited for parenthesis

Edited October 1, 2009 by tomsk

[Guest]

I am not making excuses for anyone! However that is the way the system in place operates (nb I purposely didnt use the word 'works'). If your up for Revolution, count me in! I never stated that I liked it, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the status quo.

 

 

Edited for parenthesis

I can, they only know three and a half chords.

[Chertsey]

I understand that, but using it as an excuse to be unethical and normalise shitty behaviour is a cop-out.

 

Those engaged in shafting others for a living should at least admit they're being unethical. Rather than pretending to themselves it's all in a days work. It's perfectly possible to make a living and *gasp* not screw people in dire situations over.

It's not making excuses for it, to point out that it happens and that if you are aware of that you are in a better position to defend yourself against it - by not giving too much away, for example.

[deletedaccount]

That's fair enough.

 

I have the business acumen of a sloth tbh. It's only my incredible powers of cynicism that keep me afloat.

[tomsk]

I can, they only know three and a half chords.

 

 

I saw this post coming, I would inquire as to the nature of the half chord claimed, to my mind they struggle to acheive the claimed three!!

[Guest]

I saw this post coming, I would inquire as to the nature of the half chord claimed, to my mind they struggle to acheive the claimed three!!

Fair play mate. Maybe it was two and a half?

[hydrophobia]

"Had they dropped the price earlier we could have found another buyer but they did it on the day knowing our backs were against the wall."

 

 

That is called business, places like the City of London run on moves like that. And before you say The City is full of crooks and nothing to do with you, where do you think your pension and other investments do their growing!

 

A better course was to say absolutely nothing about the boat to anybody, then when you had possession, offer it for sale as is.

 

Business and emotion are a dangerous mix!

 

The boat was too bad as I tried to explain before to say nothing and I am not in the business of ripping people off and I am sorry that this offends you.You would make a fantastic boatbuilder!

[tomsk]

The boat was too bad as I tried to explain before to say nothing and I am not in the business of ripping people off and I am sorry that this offends you.You would make a fantastic boatbuilder!

 

 

I find your attitude commendable.

[hydrophobia]

I find your attitude commendable.

 

 

Ahhhhhhh, Thanks!

[blackrose]

While I tend to agree with the consensus regarding new or used boats, just because somebody asks a for opinions it doesn't mean that advice should then be forced down their throat!

 

Bit over priced for a Liverpool Boat, though.

 

On the subject of Liverpool Boats, as others have said, there's no evidence that they went bust, they simply ceased trading. Unlike a lot of other builders who have gone bust, I've yet to hear of a single buyer who ended up losing their shirt.

In addition, having now owned a part fitted Liverpool Boat from new for nearly 5 years here is my honest assessment.

Steelwork: not as pretty or ornate as more expensive boats but its a good solid build, decent welding, and the shape of the hull is good.

Sprayfoam: very thick in some places and thin in others - so overall not good. I've heard that later boats may have a better application of foam. Having said that I know someone who bought a very expensive Tim Tyler sailaway and the sprayfoam was worse than any LB sailaway I'd seen.

Electrics: DC - good overall but the cable to my waterpump was too thin. All other circuits tested for voltage drop were fine. Excellent split charging system for the BT batteries which I have not seen on any other boat. AC - budget installation which operates on a single circuit with single RCBO. This means that if for some reason it trips its not easy to identify the cause and you have no mains power to anything! (crap job)

Lining and trim: not bad, nice solid oak porthole trims, but the lining on the ceiling is too thin (6mm)

Engine, gearbox and sterngear installation: good, except that I think it should have had twin swim tanks not just one big one (so bad overall I guess)

Paintjob: nice when new but its a shit job really - no build up of paint layers.

Blacking: appauling, but I suppose it would have had to be done at some point anyway, just not straight away!

Quality of steel: excellent. I heard a lot of negative comments after I bought my boat, such as the steel was so brittle it wouldn't drill and that it would corrode quickly. I think people just hear this stuff and then think they're being clever by repeating it - even though they have absolutely no firsthand knowledge. Its the same as the majority of people who love to slag off LBs - few know what they're talking about, they're just repeating something they heard. Anyway, I can say quite catagorically that the comments on the quality of the steel are nonsense. Even in the places where the blacking and millscale had fallen off some time before, a quick wire brushing of the rust on the affected areas revealed steel in an excellent condition. Like a lot of builders they leave the millscale on before painting which isn't great.

 

I bought a new part-fitted sailaway because there was no way I could afford a similar fully-fitted new boat and I was outbid by another buyer on the only used boat I saw which met my requirements.

 

Edit: I don't really understand why anyone expects a budget boat to be anything other than that? If I see a quality boat I can appreciate it, but there are a lot of supposedly mid-range boats out there which in reality are no better than budget boats like mine - they're just less common! I have a friend with a new Colecraft and apart from a bit more solid wood in the interior, he and I both agree that there is little difference between our boats in terms of overall quality. So why do people rave about Colecraft? Probably because they overheard someone else doing the same!

Edited October 2, 2009 by blackrose

[gaggle]

The boat was too bad as I tried to explain before to say nothing and I am not in the business of ripping people off and I am sorry that this offends you.You would make a fantastic boatbuilder!

 

Never give a sucker an even break.

[CheshireTaff]

As I am in the market for a new boat and Orchard are on my list of builders can I ask how this deal was arranged. Was there a signed agreement on the £35k or was it verbal over the phone or in a face to face meeting?

[Chertsey]

The boat was too bad as I tried to explain before to say nothing and I am not in the business of ripping people off and I am sorry that this offends you.You would make a fantastic boatbuilder!

That would not have been ripping people off or dishonest in any way. You got taken advantage of arguably because you were naive and too trusting, but to point that out is not to defend or advocate ripping people off and there's no need to tar all builders with that brush.