Moorings on Private (farm) land, K&A

[luctor et emergo]

I'm currently looking into the options for living on a boat (house is on the market, and the 'D' word has been muttered by swmbo on a few heated occassions... ), and so far one thing is clear, a Residential Mooring is not going to happen, and a Leisure Mooring may not be available either. I will need to be on the K&A (East of Caen Hill... ) because of my job. Travel from the boat won't be a problem, I plan on using a (small) motorbike/ moped that can be carried in the cratch. I am going to find out if their are any farmers with land along the canal whom I could moor with , and to that extent I have a few questions:

 

1 If you moor on a Leisure Mooring, I understand that you can not live on that mooring, but are you allowed to live on the boat, away from the mooring? As I understand the rules, the restricting goes purely on the mooring, not the actual boat.

 

2. following on that, if you move away from the mooring, are you then required to move a substantial distance between moorings (as per the CC licence), or can you remain in the same area, so long as you comply with the local mooring time restrictions?

 

3. This one is a bit of a curve ball perhaps, but if I'm moored on private land, on the other side of the canal, how do the powers that be check on me/the boat/licences. Considering that when I'm there, it will be during the day (I work nights), how would the powers that be determine if I 'live on the mooring', rather than visiting my boat. Same would go to some extend in a Marina I suppose, although there are more people around, some of whom are likely to be 'twitchers'. Not that I'm looking for loopholes to cheat the system (there's to much of that in my profession already, and to be fair, the cost of a licence and/or mooring is not that prohibitive), just curious.

 

4. Can a farmer simply rent out a mooring on his land, or does he need planning permission for this? I presume that for Resitential Mooring he needs to jump through hoops aplenty, but what about Leisure Moorings?

 

To clarify, I intend to move the boat often at any rate (even if I would be lucky and secure a Resi spot) , as that is what it is all about in the end.. otherwise you might as well by a canal side property...

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[PhilR]

I'm currently looking into the options for living on a boat (house is on the market, and the 'D' word has been muttered by swmbo on a few heated occassions... ), and so far one thing is clear, a Residential Mooring is not going to happen, and a Leisure Mooring may not be available either. I will need to be on the K&A (East of Caen Hill... ) because of my job. Travel from the boat won't be a problem, I plan on using a (small) motorbike/ moped that can be carried in the cratch. I am going to find out if their are any farmers with land along the canal whom I could moor with , and to that extent I have a few questions:

 

1 If you moor on a Leisure Mooring, I understand that you can not live on that mooring, but are you allowed to live on the boat, away from the mooring? As I understand the rules, the restricting goes purely on the mooring, not the actual boat.

 

2. following on that, if you move away from the mooring, are you then required to move a substantial distance between moorings (as per the CC licence), or can you remain in the same area, so long as you comply with the local mooring time restrictions?

 

3. This one is a bit of a curve ball perhaps, but if I'm moored on private land, on the other side of the canal, how do the powers that be check on me/the boat/licences. Considering that when I'm there, it will be during the day (I work nights), how would the powers that be determine if I 'live on the mooring', rather than visiting my boat. Same would go to some extend in a Marina I suppose, although there are more people around, some of whom are likely to be 'twitchers'. Not that I'm looking for loopholes to cheat the system (there's to much of that in my profession already, and to be fair, the cost of a licence and/or mooring is not that prohibitive), just curious.

 

4. Can a farmer simply rent out a mooring on his land, or does he need planning permission for this? I presume that for Resitential Mooring he needs to jump through hoops aplenty, but what about Leisure Moorings?

 

To clarify, I intend to move the boat often at any rate (even if I would be lucky and secure a Resi spot) , as that is what it is all about in the end.. otherwise you might as well by a canal side property...

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

You will be lucky to find a residential mooring on the K & A - and if you did would you be prepared to pay the market rate?

[luctor et emergo]

You will be lucky to find a residential mooring on the K & A - and if you did would you be prepared to pay the market rate?

 

I realise that, the marinas where I enquired have long waiting lists. I'm not neccessarily looking for a Residential Mooring, a Leisure one will be O.K., as long as that means that I can stay in the area, without falling foul of the regs..

[mayalld]

I realise that, the marinas where I enquired have long waiting lists. I'm not neccessarily looking for a Residential Mooring, a Leisure one will be O.K., as long as that means that I can stay in the area, without falling foul of the regs..

 

So what you really want to know is how to cheat the system, and live aboard without either paying the going rate for a residential mooring, or adhering to the CC rules.

 

Accept that it isn't going to work.

[luctor et emergo]

So what you really want to know is how to cheat the system, and live aboard without either paying the going rate for a residential mooring, or adhering to the CC rules.

 

Accept that it isn't going to work.

 

 

I have been reading a lot of this forum recently, and somehow, I'm not surprised by your answer... or the typically condesending tone of it. If you would read my questions...

[Naughty Cal]

He does have a point though. You are asking us how to cheat the system on a busy part of the system. A mooring should be the first thing on your list, before putting the house for sale or searching for a boat. Moorings are becoming scarce in most areas.

[carlt]

So what you really want to know is how to cheat the system, and live aboard without either paying the going rate for a residential mooring, or adhering to the CC rules.

 

Accept that it isn't going to work.

Is having a mooring, yet travelling around, cheating the system?

 

It would seem to me that, rightly or wrongly, as the law stands, if you have any sort of mooring, on any part of the system, then the 14 day rule, however you interpret it, doesn't apply.

Edited September 8, 2009 by carlt

[alan_fincher]

So what you really want to know is how to cheat the system, and live aboard without either paying the going rate for a residential mooring, or adhering to the CC rules.

 

Accept that it isn't going to work.

Is he asking how to cheat the system ?

 

He seems to genuinely be asking how to stay within the system, and appears happy to pay for a mooring, (and would do so for a residential one, if he could).

 

I have a boat on a permanent, non-residential mooring, and my "rights" to live on it there, or elsewhere remain unclear to me, should I want to, (as it happens, I don't).

 

I can't see it written in stone anywhere that I could not "live" on my home mooring a lot of the time, and at other local canal-side locations for the rest of the time.

 

Restrictions that BW place, (such as a sign at one end of Tring Summit that says you can't spend more than 14 days a year on moorings on the whole of the summit length), seem to have no legal basis whatsoever.

 

In fact I have yet to be convinced that, unlike someone with a CCers license, that there is even a requirement that I have to move on from a location after 14 days, if I actually have a permanent mooring elsewhere.

 

Whilst we may all have our views on trying to navigate through lines of "continuous moorers", or actually find a temporary mooring amongst lines of boats that seldom move, I am happy to give OP the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to establish both what is "legal", and what most people take as "legal".

 

Just my view, though, I'll admit, on this usually heated topic.

[Chagall]

and to be fair to the original OP he did say he didn't want to cheat the system, and as far as I can understand what he is saying its just that he wanted to know if he could still live on the boat whilst owning a leisure mooring and travelling within the cc rules.... perhaps until a more suitable mooring becomes available?

 

and another OP question was if farmers can just rent out their canal side space? I do know that a mooring in such a spot has to pay half of the nearest BW facilities mooring but I too wondered if friends who owned canal side property could just allow one to moor there and my query is also as a curious wonder rather than an attempt to cheat the system.

[Guest User]

To have a go at answering your questions .....

 

1 If you moor on a Leisure Mooring, I understand that you can not live on that mooring, but are you allowed to live on the boat, away from the mooring? As I understand the rules, the restricting goes purely on the mooring, not the actual boat.

... Yes

 

2. following on that, if you move away from the mooring, are you then required to move a substantial distance between moorings (as per the CC licence), or can you remain in the same area, so long as you comply with the local mooring time restrictions ?

... The BW line is that you must demonstrate a progressive journey around the system, repeatedly going back and forth between a few select moorings is a no-no.

 

3. This one is a bit of a curve ball perhaps, but if I'm moored on private land, on the other side of the canal, how do the powers that be check on me/the boat/licences. Considering that when I'm there, it will be during the day (I work nights), how would the powers that be determine if I 'live on the mooring', rather than visiting my boat. Same would go to some extend in a Marina I suppose, although there are more people around, some of whom are likely to be 'twitchers'. Not that I'm looking for loopholes to cheat the system (there's to much of that in my profession already, and to be fair, the cost of a licence and/or mooring is not that prohibitive), just curious.

... (canals are different to rivers) ... on a canal the navigation authority effectively owns the water and the land underneath it, so even mooring on the "private" side of the canal you are still moored on the canal, i.e. you're still subject to BW's regulations.

 

4. Can a farmer simply rent out a mooring on his land, or does he need planning permission for this? I presume that for Resitential Mooring he needs to jump through hoops aplenty, but what about Leisure Moorings?

No a farmer can't simply rent out his land .. he/she would need to apply to BW beforehand .. and then pay them a fee, however I believe that BW do not require planning permission for on-line moorings as the precedent already exists, however if an off-line marina is proposed, then there is a requirement for planning approval. Edited September 8, 2009 by Graham!

[carlt]

... The BW line is that you must demonstrate a progressive journey around the system, repeatedly going back and forth between a few select moorings is a no-no.

This is the law which is relevant to continuous cruisers.

 

If you have a mooring you are not subject to this legislation (as far as I can see) so the 14 day law doesn't apply.

[Paul Evans]

1 If you moor on a Leisure Mooring, I understand that you can not live on that mooring, but are you allowed to live on the boat, away from the mooring? As I understand the rules, the restricting goes purely on the mooring, not the actual boat.

 

2. following on that, if you move away from the mooring, are you then required to move a substantial distance between moorings (as per the CC license), or can you remain in the same area, so long as you comply with the local mooring time restrictions?

 

3. This one is a bit of a curve ball perhaps, but if I'm moored on private land, on the other side of the canal, how do the powers that be check on me/the boat/licenses. Considering that when I'm there, it will be during the day (I work nights), how would the powers that be determine if I 'live on the mooring', rather than visiting my boat. Same would go to some extend in a Marina I suppose, although there are more people around, some of whom are likely to be 'twitchers'. Not that I'm looking for loopholes to cheat the system (there's to much of that in my profession already, and to be fair, the cost of a license and/or mooring is not that prohibitive), just curious.

 

4. Can a farmer simply rent out a mooring on his land, or does he need planning permission for this? I presume that for Residential Mooring he needs to jump through hoops aplenty, but what about Leisure Moorings?

 

Let's answer the questions -

 

1. If you have a leisure mooring you may not live on the boat on the mooring. You can spend as much time as you like on your boat as long as the mooring does not become your only or main place of residence.

 

2. If you have a permanent mooring recognised by BW, you are not required to be cruising in the way that a CC'er is expected to be to satisfy the conditions of their licence. You do not need to move a substantial distance between moorings as long as you comply with local mooring restrictions.

 

3. Your boat will have a name and registration number. BW has a database that it uses to check such things as licence and BSS status. How BW/local authority decide whether you are using a leisure mooring as a place of residence will depend on the particular facts.

 

4. A farmer would need planning permission to provide moorings - residential or leisure - and might well need permission from BW as well. In some circumstances, BW can demand and get a payment from the farmer.

 

What you are proposing, is to put it mildly, full of difficulties. You are not the first to think that living on a boat on the K&A would be ideal and not the first to attempt to find a solution to the lack of residential moorings. I have not been on the K&A but I have heard enough to stay away. If you go ahead you give me another reason not to visit.

[luctor et emergo]

He does have a point though. You are asking us how to cheat the system on a busy part of the system. A mooring should be the first thing on your list, before putting the house for sale or searching for a boat. Moorings are becoming scarce in most areas.

 

If the wording of my post gives the indication that I'm looking to 'cheat' the system, then that is my mistake, as I do not wish to do so. I am trying to establish how the rules work, and what is possible, within those rules. If abaiding by the rules, even at the edge of them, is considered cheating, then what chance for those wishing to enter into this life?

 

to clarify, yes, if I can get a Resi Morring, I will pay the market rate. Rates within the area that I look at are affordable, and comparable with any reasonable dwelling on land. I would also appreciate the added bonus of having a convinient location to use as my address, to get my post, and maybe even hook up to the mains (perish the thought.. ).

 

Falling that, and considering that I plan to cruise the K&A from roughly the Hungerford area to Bradford on Avon anyway, if it is within the rules, I would read the rules that having a Leisure Mooring means that you can't live at the mooring, but that it would not prohibit cruising the canal in a smaller area. Again, I would obviously abide by local restrictions (14 days, 48 hours etc..),

 

I DON,T want to cheat the system by claiming a (cheap) CC permit, and then bridge hopping in the Pewsey Vale... believe me, trying to stay legal whilst driving a truck is enough of a battle for me.

[Guest User]

.... If you have a mooring you are not subject to this legislation (as far as I can see) so the 14 day law doesn't apply.

In context of the Original Post ... Luctor's Question 2 seems to query the feasibility of wanting to live aboard but on a non-residential mooring ... therefore having to move off the home mooring and then travelling between certain unspecified moorings (Luctor mentions moorings in plural) to avoid being resident on a non-residential mooring, which seems to my mind to then require an interim period of CC-ing ?

 

2. following on that, if you move away from the mooring, are you then required to move a substantial distance between moorings (as per the CC licence), or can you remain in the same area, so long as you comply with the local mooring time restrictions?

 

It may be of course that the terms of non-residence stipulate something like a maximum number of days residency per week, in which case taking the boat on and off the mooring with such regularity might start to get a little wearying but that would be up to Luctor to decide ?

[Naughty Cal]

It may be of course that the terms of non-residence stipulate something like a maximum number of days residency per week, in which case taking the boat on and off the mooring with such regularity might start to get a little wearying but that would be up to Luctor to decide ?

 

Some are a little open ended with that. Our contract states that we can stay for upto 11 months of the year. Given that we have been out for well over a month this year we could potentially live on our mooring.

[luctor et emergo]

Thanks for those who answered my questions whilst I was called away. It is getting a lot clearer.

 

I have not been on the K&A but I have heard enough to stay away. If you go ahead you give me another reason not to visit.

 

Nou nou, I do intent to buy a boat WITH a shower, so no need for that....

[carlt]

In context of the Original Post ... Luctor's Question 2 seems to query the feasibility of wanting to live aboard but on a non-residential mooring ... therefore having to move off the home mooring and then travelling between certain unspecified moorings (Luctor mentions moorings in plural) to avoid being resident on a non-residential mooring, which seems to my mind to then require an interim period of CC-ing ?

If you give up your permanent mooring and then go travelling then yes, you are bound by Section 17(3)©(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 but, if you keep your permanent mooring, you are not.

[mayalld]

I have been reading a lot of this forum recently, and somehow, I'm not surprised by your answer... or the typically condesending tone of it. If you would read my questions...

 

I read them.

 

The intent seems clear.

 

You want to know what you can get away with, whilst remaining within the letter of the rules.

 

The K&A is full and seems to have a large and thriving "community" all pulling the same stunts to get around the inconvenient rules.

 

BW are doubtless going to start playing hardball soon.

[carlt]

You want to know what you can get away with, whilst remaining within the letter of the rules.

I don't understand the "remaining within the letter of rules" bit.

 

Isn't that what everyone's supposed to do?

 

Presumably someone driving at 70mph, on the motorway, is "getting away with it, whilst remaining within the letter of the rules" so we should all stay below 60.

[Naughty Cal]

The K&A is full and seems to have a large and thriving "community" all pulling the same stunts to get around the inconvenient rules.

 

No doubt all with the same leisure mooring

 

 

Presumably someone driving at 70mph, on the motorway, is "getting away with it, whilst remaining within the letter of the rules" so we should all stay below 60.

 

A better example would be someone driving at 79mph on the motorway as you are allowed 10%+2mph over the speed limit.

[luctor et emergo]

I read them.

 

The intent seems clear.

 

You want to know what you can get away with, whilst remaining within the letter of the rules.

 

The K&A is full and seems to have a large and thriving "community" all pulling the same stunts to get around the inconvenient rules.

 

BW are doubtless going to start playing hardball soon.

 

 

If I remain within the letter of the rule, where is that considered 'getting away with it'? Am I 'getting away with it' every time I pay for my shopping? When I pay for one hour parking, and I park for 59 minutes, am I 'getting away with it'?

 

If anything, if I pay for a Leisure Mooring, by moving my boat around, I DON'T try to get away with it regards living on my mooring, something which I'm sure happens a lot in Marinas, where they may look the other way.

 

As for the assumption that the K&A is full, what are the criteria for 'full'? I have not walked the length of the path, but I do cross a few of the bridges every day, and even around the bridges there seems to be plenty of space. I had a look on Google Earth, and there are only a few areas where there are a lot of boats together, but the empty space by far outweighs the populated. If it is putting an undue strain on the resources, that may be the case, but that is not the fault of the boaters. Yoiu pay licence fee (or tax.. sorry carl ) to BW, who are therefor e obliged to provided certain services. Their inability to do so is not the fault of somebody who wants top live on the canal.

 

On that note, I understand that there is one trader who trades on the K&A (from his boat), so perhaps there would be a possibility for a business here (without stepping on someones toes obviously..) ? I understand that a boat offering a PO facility might be popular? I may consider a change of career... no, really.

[Lady Muck]

BW are doubtless going to start playing hardball soon.

 

Or are they? They continue to make threats but truth is, they don't have the funding to enforce things properly. The new 'structure' means less enforcement officers than before.

 

I have to say, it doesn't change the fact that it's getting even more crowded. I've been away from the 'Nam over four months, now. I'm wondering how many moored boats there will be when I return, seeing as I'm told they appear at the rate of about two a week.

 

I wonder at what point, it starts to become a real problem. At the moment it doesn't affect me and it doesn't bother me either. I don't mind being surrounded by moored boats, it's more security.

 

I'm happy to pay for my marina because it's fully serviced and the towpath isn't. It annoys me a bit when I boat through town and theres nowhere to moor, but not enough to get really upset about how busy it is.

 

Infact I'm having as many problems finding somwhere to moor here on the T & M. It is busy. We've had to moor 'in the bushes' for the past three nights as all the visitor moorings were chock full.

 

If any of you are tired of overcrowding then I recommend the Rochdale. Saw only one boat on the move in four days. More space to moor than you could even imagine.

[luctor et emergo]

A better example would be someone driving at 79mph on the motorway as you are allowed 10%+2mph over the speed limit.

 

 

**puts on pedant hat..**

 

no, you are not. Driving at 79mph is breaking the law (speed limit). the allowance is to account for small inaccuracies in your speedo, and the speed measuring device. If you drive at 79mph acCording to your speedo, you may well be driving faster, or slower than that speed. Even the size, and wear, of your tyres will change the speedo reading.

 

**takes of pedant hat **

 

(edited some annoying spelling mishtakes..)

Edited September 8, 2009 by luctor et emergo

[Lady Muck]

As for the assumption that the K&A is full, what are the criteria for 'full'?

 

I'd say it's when genuine visitors on holiday, be they hire boats or owned, cannot find anywhere to tie up for the night because the moorings are always full. Read some of the user group meeting minutes and you'll see the complaints from cruising clubs etc. Bw get complaints from other boaters and have to be seen to do something about it.

 

Aside from that, there isn't any more impact on facilities etc AFAIK....

 

Edited to add: 'Full' does not mean a solid line of moored boats all the way from Bristol to where the canal meets the Thames. HTH.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Lady Muck

[luctor et emergo]

I'd say it's when genuine visitors on holiday, be they hire boats or owned, cannot find anywhere to tie up for the night because the moorings are always full. Read some of the user group meeting minutes and you'll see the complaints from cruising clubs etc. Bw get complaints from other boaters and have to be seen to do something about it.

 

Aside from that, there isn't any more impact on facilities etc AFAIK....

 

Edited to add: 'Full' does not mean a solid line of moored boats all the way from Bristol to where the canal meets the Thames. HTH.

 

 

I see, thanks.

Still, there are plenty of spots on the K&A to moor, perhaps not 'convinient' for those on holiday, who after all want to do the sightseeing etc, and may not be adapted to live in the sticks, but on the other hand, I would very much be mooring in the sticks. As long as I can get the bike to the road (to get to work), I don't need either people or pubs etc around me. The ability to move the boot is one of the main reasons to go and live on one..