new boat speck

[number four]

have read and posted on hear trying to help decide on the speck of our new build.

so this is were we are so far, i would like your opinions and idears on this.

feel free to poke scorn but at least tell me why!

 

piper trent class 45'x12'

reverse layout with one perminate cabin.

for full time liveabord and no shore power most of the time.

 

beta 50 with twin alternators raw water cooled with gas seperator.

3kva genorator raw water cooled etc

vetus inverter charger 3kw

700w solar pannels (or more)

1000ah house battery 2v cells

100l twin coil hot water

mikuni heating mx60 with matrix heaters

2x 500l fuel tanks

1x 1000l water

1x600l black water

boatmans multi fuel stove (midships)

shoreline fridge and freezer

gas hob

combi microwave

dish washer (with hot fill)

twin tub washing machine

2x12v tv+sat dish

1x pc

electric wc

bow thruster

electric ancor winch (maybe)

 

we have been livabord for 5 years on a sailboat so hopefully not to green.

looking forward to a berating.

Edited September 7, 2009 by number four

[Naughty Cal]

Why two TV's

[Albion]

have read and posted on hear trying to help decide on the speck of our new build.

so this is were we are so far, i would like your opinions and idears on this.

feel free to poke scorn but at least tell me why!

 

piper trent class 45'x12'

reverse layout with one perminate cabin.

for full time liveabord and no shore power most of the time.

 

beta 50 with twin alternators raw water cooled with gas seperator.

3kva genorator raw water cooled etc

vetus inverter charger 3kw

700w solar pannels (or more)

100l twin coil hot water

mikuni heating mx60 with matrix heaters

2x 500l fuel tanks

1x 1000l water

1x600l black water

boatmans multi fuel stove (midships)

shoreline fridge and freezer

gas hob

combi microwave

dish washer (with hot fill)

twin tub washing machine

2x12v tv+sat dish

1x pc

 

we have been livabord for 5 years on a sailboat so hopefully not to green.

looking forward to a berating.

 

I don't know what shape the Trent Barge is underwater but be aware that a 45 x 12ft craft is quite stumpy (ie short and beamy). If the underwater shape isn't good (ie like a wide narrow boat with no chined shape to it) it won't handle well, won't go well due to lack of water to the prop, and the bow could have a mind of its own. If the underwater shape is like the Dutch Barges that he makes then it will probably be OK (but I've never steered a Piper). This comment is made as a result of bitter experience with a mildly chined South West Durham Steelcraft boat that took me two years to get sorted at my expense.

Roger

[number four]

I don't know what shape the Trent Barge is underwater but be aware that a 45 x 12ft craft is quite stumpy (ie short and beamy). If the underwater shape isn't good (ie like a wide narrow boat with no chined shape to it) it won't handle well, won't go well due to lack of water to the prop, and the bow could have a mind of its own. If the underwater shape is like the Dutch Barges that he makes then it will probably be OK (but I've never steered a Piper). This comment is made as a result of bitter experience with a mildly chined South West Durham Steelcraft boat that took me two years to get sorted at my expense.

Roger

 

the swim is 12' long so there is only 20' of boat that is narrow boat shape in section

and the bow is shaped like his dutch barge.

 

Why two TV's

 

so i can watch 2 programs at the same time and save power

Edited September 7, 2009 by number four

[david and julie]

3kva genorator raw water cooled etc

There was a boat moored infront of me a couple of weeks ago with a genny running and whilst it wasn't noisy it kept squirting water across the towpath whilst people were walking past.

[number four]

There was a boat moored infront of me a couple of weeks ago with a genny running and whilst it wasn't noisy it kept squirting water across the towpath whilst people were walking past.

 

they can put water back below the waterline so no noise of splashing

[Rick-n-Jo]

If you have raw water cooling on an inland boat, you'll need a "mud box" filter, and you'll probably spend a lot of time cleaning it out. Some generators also water cool some of their electrics, even a brief failure in cooling water flow can be fatal. Most inland boats use closed circuit cooling via skin tanks for this reason.

 

Your 3KVa (about 2.5Kw, but not continuously) genny sounds a bit puny if you want power hungry toys like dish washers. Have you done your energy audit?

 

If it were me I'd spend my money on a decent sized twin bowl sink and a stock of scouring pads. In the time it would take you to load the dishwasher and start the genny, the washing up will be done!

 

edited cos I didn't read your post properly.

 

OK big battery bank, but what size charger? what I'm getting at is how many hours a day you might have to run genny/engine to support all your electric gadgets.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Rick-n-Jo

[Liam]

You may also want to possibly rethink about having a Boatman solid fuel stove. Although it will be centrally positioned, the extra internal width of your proposed boat may be a tad too much for it. A mate had one in his 48ft narrowboat, and even though it was in the middle of the boat it took either end a rather long time to warm up.

 

Saying that though, you are able to take the option of having a back boiler on the Boatman stove so you are able to run radiators off it.

[sueb]

Are you going to continuously cruise on the K & A?

Sue

[blackrose]

have read and posted on hear trying to help decide on the speck of our new build.

so this is were we are so far, i would like your opinions and idears on this.

feel free to poke scorn but at least tell me why!

 

piper trent class 45'x12'

 

With those dimensions I assume you eventually intend to take the boat over to France.

Otherwise I can't see the point of building it so short.

Edited September 7, 2009 by blackrose

[number four]

If you have raw water cooling on an inland boat, you'll need a "mud box" filter, and you'll probably spend a lot of time cleaning it out. Some generators also water cool some of their electrics, even a brief failure in cooling water flow can be fatal. Most inland boats use closed circuit cooling via skin tanks for this reason.

 

Your 3KVa (about 2.5Kw, but not continuously) genny sounds a bit puny if you want power hungry toys like dish washers. Have you done your energy audit?

 

If it were me I'd spend my money on a decent sized twin bowl sink and a stock of scouring pads. In the time it would take you to load the dishwasher and start the genny, the washing up will be done!

 

edited cos I didn't read your post properly.

 

OK big battery bank, but what size charger? what I'm getting at is how many hours a day you might have to run genny/engine to support all your electric gadgets.

 

i am going to ask piper about the skin tanks and see what can be done

the gen is ok as it will be backed up by 3kw combi inverter charger already use this set up on a sailboat

the solar will i hope provide all day to day stuff

dish washer is a nice have we dont have to use it normaly use it when the gen is topping of the bats and load is light

 

 

You may also want to possibly rethink about having a Boatman solid fuel stove. Although it will be centrally positioned, the extra internal width of your proposed boat may be a tad too much for it. A mate had one in his 48ft narrowboat, and even though it was in the middle of the boat it took either end a rather long time to warm up.

 

Saying that though, you are able to take the option of having a back boiler on the Boatman stove so you are able to run radiators off it.

 

the stove is for secondry heat in case the mikuni stops and for cosey nights round fire was thinking of using an ecofan to?

 

Are you going to continuously cruise on the K & A?

Sue

undecided yet mostlightly on the thames to start then road transport to the north once we have explored the south.

then over to france when we retire. but we have lernt not to plan more than a year or so ahead.

why do you ask?

 

With those dimensions I assume you eventually intend to take the boat over to France.

Otherwise I can't see the point of building it so short.

 

we have lived on a boat for 5 years and lernt the key is to only have what you need why pay moring fees for 10' of boat we dont use, its much easer to find 45' of space than 55' to park.

[Naughty Cal]

If you have raw water cooling on an inland boat, you'll need a "mud box" filter, and you'll probably spend a lot of time cleaning it out. Some generators also water cool some of their electrics, even a brief failure in cooling water flow can be fatal. Most inland boats use closed circuit cooling via skin tanks for this reason.

 

Our cruiser has a raw water (indirect) system whereby river water is passed through a heat exchanger to cool the engine coolant. We have had a few occasions where the water intake has been blocked, usually by a plastic bag or weed, but if you catch the problem quickly enough (an overheat alarm is a must) no damage is sustained. It usually requires a change of the water impellor (these are water lubricated so starving them of water warps them and they cant pump enough water warped) this however on our engine takes no more than 10 minutes tops to refit and check the new one works. We dont find it a problem we just have to remember to check the strainer every week or so to ensure it isnt full of weed. And most diesel engines are fairly robust. A very short period of over heating does little if any damage, but i would say that an alarm is a must to get your attention when it does over heat.

[Tam & Di]

With those dimensions I assume you eventually intend to take the boat over to France.

Otherwise I can't see the point of building it so short.

 

 

Can't see the logic of that - even short locks here are 39m! We saw a Liverpool Boats thingy a few days with similar dimensions and a 60 hp engine - he could not go much more than tickover without it being absolutely uncontrollable. He was thinking of having some sort of modification to the bow, but I was not convinced. I guess Piper's boats have rather better under water shape though. If France is a thought, don't forget you have some serious waters here where you do actually get to use your engine.

 

I'm not sure about a 3KVa genny and 3kw inverter - seems a bit lop sided to me. Certainly you don't want an enormous genny or it seldom gets enough work, but I went for 5KVa one. I fitted a 1500W Mastervolt sine-wave inverter, on the basis that that was adequate for all daily use including usual electric tools. For more pokey stuff like washing machine, iron etc we then run the generator (or use shore power when we have it available). I did put in two wiring circuits - one connected only to the inverter, with one pattern of face plate, and other switchable between generator or shore power with a different face plate. We have a 24v x 650ah domestic battery bank of 2v deep cycle cells. This set-up has worked extremely well for the 15 years we've used it - we live aboard much of the time, cruising France and Belgium mostly, and running a barge handling school.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Tam & Di

[Chris Pink]

why do you ask?

 

Because the Kennet and Avon seems to be a very popular choice for the owners of floating breeze blocks with energy use modelled on houses. No real need for them to swim well because there's nowhere to swim to.

[david and julie]

vetus inverter charger 3kw

I've never heard of anyone using one of these so thought I'd look it up.

http://www.moore-power.co.uk/vetus_combi_data.pdf

To me It looks the same thing as the older model Sterling/Moore Power/Rich models which I thought had been superceded and are now being marketed by MR in conjuntion with Rich themselves.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Combi-3-3000W-Pure-S...id=p3286.c0.m14

 

I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with these or criticising your choice, I just don't see the point in shelling out more than you need to. My 1500w version of one of these burnt out and needed replacing after 4 years of light use - the same thing happened to another forum member too.

 

If I ever fit another boat out I think I'd go for Victron or Mastervolt which are usually dearer but possibly not when compared to Vetus.

[number four]

I've never heard of anyone using one of these so thought I'd look it up.

http://www.moore-power.co.uk/vetus_combi_data.pdf

To me It looks the same thing as the older model Sterling/Moore Power/Rich models which I thought had been superceded and are now being marketed by MR in conjuntion with Rich themselves.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Combi-3-3000W-Pure-S...id=p3286.c0.m14

 

I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with these or criticising your choice, I just don't see the point in shelling out more than you need to. My 1500w version of one of these burnt out and needed replacing after 4 years of light use - the same thing happened to another forum member too.

 

If I ever fit another boat out I think I'd go for Victron or Mastervolt which are usually dearer but possibly not when compared to Vetus.

 

i have victron at moment and its been no problem but cant power share with solar thats the reason for my choice but if victron bring out a new model well!

 

Can't see the logic of that - even short locks here are 39m! We saw a Liverpool Boats thingy a few days with similar dimensions and a 60 hp engine - he could not go much more than tickover without it being absolutely uncontrollable. He was thinking of having some sort of modification to the bow, but I was not convinced. I guess Piper's boats have rather better under water shape though. If France is a thought, don't forget you have some serious waters here where you do actually get to use your engine.

 

I'm not sure about a 3KVa genny and 3kw inverter - seems a bit lop sided to me. Certainly you don't want an enormous genny or it seldom gets enough work, but I went for 5KVa one. I fitted a 1500W Mastervolt sine-wave inverter, on the basis that that was adequate for all daily use including usual electric tools. For more pokey stuff like washing machine, iron etc we then run the generator (or use shore power when we have it available). I did put in two wiring circuits - one connected only to the inverter, with one pattern of face plate, and other switchable between generator or shore power with a different face plate. We have a 24v x 650ah domestic battery bank of 2v deep cycle cells. This set-up has worked extremely well for the 15 years we've used it - we live aboard much of the time, cruising France and Belgium mostly, and running a barge handling school.

 

it seems lopsided because it relies more to solar we have 3kva gen+5kw victron at moment and it works fine

can you explane more about the stering problem please.

 

Because the Kennet and Avon seems to be a very popular choice for the owners of floating breeze blocks with energy use modelled on houses. No real need for them to swim well because there's nowhere to swim to.

 

and thers me thinking you were a nice bunch on the cut

as i type this i am in padstow harbor i have meen sailing round the uk this summer left on the 1st june and have clocked up around 2000miles this summer with a dishwasher and washing machine

what have you been up to?

[Rick-n-Jo]

and thers me thinking you were a nice bunch on the cut

as i type this i am in padstow harbor i have meen sailing round the uk this summer left on the 1st june and have clocked up around 2000miles this summer with a dishwasher and washing machine

what have you been up to?

 

 

Whoa there! I don't think anyone here is having a go at you. You presented your scheme and asked for comments, quote "looking forward to a berating".

This thread will be read by lots of prospective boat owners/fitters, many of whom (though obviously not you) have unrealistic expectations about what can be done.

You seem to have answers to all your questions already, so for that reason, to quote the dragons, "I'm out!"

[FadeToScarlet]

If you're planning on using any kind of raw water cooling on the inland waterways, I would have the largest possible inlet, or failing that, a large mudbox. An in, a 6 inch by 6 inch hole in the side of the boat, with a grille, and an internal box say one foot square with a series of mesh baffles, in decreasing sizes, to ensure you never get clogged.

[number four]

Whoa there! I don't think anyone here is having a go at you. You presented your scheme and asked for comments, quote "looking forward to a berating".

This thread will be read by lots of prospective boat owners/fitters, many of whom (though obviously not you) have unrealistic expectations about what can be done.

You seem to have answers to all your questions already, so for that reason, to quote the dragons, "I'm out!"

 

befor you go perhaps you should reread the posts by chris pink

i am only answering like for like, and i am realy intrested in the amount of crusing someone with those sort of opinions does.

 

i have also said on some matters i will go back to piper to rase isues that have been mentioned i am not after validation of my choise but looking to improve the speck

but it has to fit our lifestile

 

its a shame you are out

it was begining to get interesting

 

i hate to be condemed for standing my ground when some one has a go

yes i invited berating i did not say i would take it laying down.

[blackrose]

Can't see the logic of that - even short locks here are 39m!

It wasn't because of lock dimensions. In previous threads Gary Peacock (formerly the owner of Legard Bridge Boats) told us that he had built several 45' barges destined for France because a lot of their marinas had this limit on length. That was the logic. I think you are over there so perhaps you could clarify this?

 

We saw a Liverpool Boats thingy a few days with similar dimensions and a 60 hp engine - he could not go much more than tickover without it being absolutely uncontrollable. He was thinking of having some sort of modification to the bow, but I was not convinced. I guess Piper's boats have rather better under water shape though. If France is a thought, don't forget you have some serious waters here where you do actually get to use your engine.

I don't understand that? Perhaps we should attribute the phenomenon he experiences to bad seamanship?

My Liverpool Boats widebeam is 12' x 57' and handles excellently, but it is rather underpowered with only a 55hp engine. Having said that I've made several trips up and down the Thames through London and not had a problem turning into a 5 or 6 knot tide. I've never hit the walls going into Limehouse.

 

Unlike deeper draughted barges, the problem that any very shallow draught NB style craft will have is that there is limited space between the uxter plate and skeg which then limits your choice of propellor (and ultimately gearbox and engine). On a recent trip down to Limehouse, a friend on a similar boat to mine had no more power than me despite his 65hp engine. The max diameter prop that you can fit on one of these is 19". Mine is 19" x 13", his is 19" x 15".

Edited September 8, 2009 by blackrose

[NB Willawaw]

I used to skipper a 56ftx11ft widebeam and it had a Beta 50HP engine. It also was woefully underpowered and I would never have taken it near any moving water. Interestingly, it had a Travelpower fitted, but it was hard to say how much power that really sapped from the engine and whether it would have been any better on tidal water without it.

 

I don't understand that? Perhaps we should ascribe it to bad seamanship? My Liverpool Boats widebeam is 12' x 57' and handles excellently, but it is rather underpowered with only a 55hp engine. Having said that I've made several trips up and down the Thames through London and not had a problem turning into a 5 or 6 knot tide. Unlike deeper draughted barges, the problem that any very shallow draught NB style craft will have is that there is limited space between the uxter plate and skeg which then limits your choice of propellor (and ultimately gearbox and engine). On a recent trip down to Limehouse, a friend on a similar boat to mine had no more power than me despite his 65hp engine. The max diameter prop that you can fit on one of these is 19". Mine is 19" x 13", his is 19" x 15".

[blackrose]

we have lived on a boat for 5 years and lernt the key is to only have what you need why pay moring fees for 10' of boat we dont use, its much easer to find 45' of space than 55' to park.

Ok, fair enough, each to their own.

[number four]

Ok, fair enough, each to their own.

 

forgot to say this will also be a biger boat than we now live on we might have to fit intercom

 

It wasn't because of lock dimensions. In previous threads Gary Peacock (formerly the owner of Legard Bridge Boats) told us that he had built several 45' barges destined for France because a lot of their marinas had this limit on length. That was the logic. I think you are over there so perhaps you could clarify this?

 

 

I don't understand that? Perhaps we should attribute the phenomenon he experiences to bad seamanship?

My Liverpool Boats widebeam is 12' x 57' and handles excellently, but it is rather underpowered with only a 55hp engine. Having said that I've made several trips up and down the Thames through London and not had a problem turning into a 5 or 6 knot tide. I've never hit the walls going into Limehouse.

 

Unlike deeper draughted barges, the problem that any very shallow draught NB style craft will have is that there is limited space between the uxter plate and skeg which then limits your choice of propellor (and ultimately gearbox and engine). On a recent trip down to Limehouse, a friend on a similar boat to mine had no more power than me despite his 65hp engine. The max diameter prop that you can fit on one of these is 19". Mine is 19" x 13", his is 19" x 15".

 

i have 20"x12"prop quoted by piper what do you think?

[PaddingtonBear]

As we are all being sniffy and quite right too, there is no k in 'speck' (it is a shortened form of specification and is written by those who can't spell as spec.) or perhaps you are referring to a small spot of dirt?

[tomsk]

And I wholly object to the use of the term 'seamanship' when navigating a tin corridor along a muddy ditch. Slightly less peeved if navigating tidal rivers, but come-on, you're not master of a supertanker.