To set the record straight

[mayalld]

Thank you for this reply Dave.

 

It is interesting that it appears you can gain a criminal record from infringing a BW bye-law. It seems fair to be fined, but unfair to be sacked for, for instance, running a generator after 8:00pm.

 

It would be fascinating to explore this, but I'm not sure it will fit easily within the emotional turmoil of this thread.

 

Richard

 

I am hoping that we can try to talk in the abstract!

 

Your post illustrates very well part of what I am trying to explore, namely the difference between bye-laws (criminal) and licence terms (civil).

 

Running an engine after 8pm is not a specific offence under the bye-laws, it is a breach of licence conditions, and could be dealt with as an administrative issue. It could also, potentially, be dealt with under bye-law 39, under the catch-all "nuisance" angle, but I see no evidence that it has ever been so dealt with.

 

It is worth noting that failure to display a licence (which is something BW are clamping down on at present) IS a bye-law offence.

[the grinch]

I should hope the majority of folks have a boat capable of more than 4mph.

 

yes even the back stabbers on here probably!

i know of at least one boater on here whose boat is capable of at least 8 knots! yet they go on like you've committed the cardinal sin!

[Naughty Cal]

Why, if it's a canal boat ?

 

Just curious.

 

If used purely on canals it will never be a problem, however as a lot of canals connect into rivers you would be pretty screwed if you came across a 2mph flow and you are maxed out at 3mph.

[Nine of Hearts]

Why, if it's a canal boat ?

 

Just curious.

 

So you can stop it. Don't know about you, but I rev my engine to more than the rpm required for cruising when manoeuvering and "braking". I suspect most people do, I have certainly seen plenty of people creating quite a flurry from their arse-ends when performing such manoeuvres. The builders of my boat did not consider her safe with anything less than 42hp, which makes her capable of more than 4mph. What an asinine and mischievous interjection!

[RLWP]

I am hoping that we can try to talk in the abstract!

 

Your post illustrates very well part of what I am trying to explore, namely the difference between bye-laws (criminal) and licence terms (civil).

 

Running an engine after 8pm is not a specific offence under the bye-laws, it is a breach of licence conditions, and could be dealt with as an administrative issue. It could also, potentially, be dealt with under bye-law 39, under the catch-all "nuisance" angle, but I see no evidence that it has ever been so dealt with.

 

It is worth noting that failure to display a licence (which is something BW are clamping down on at present) IS a bye-law offence.

 

There is another aspect of this though that is unfortunately not abstract but highly specific.

 

How is it that this was handled in court by a magistrate? What steps did BW and Phylis take to end up in this position?

 

BW taking this straight to court appears to be heavy handed in the extreme, but I don't know if that is what happened.

 

So, it appears you can perhaps get a criminal record from infringing a BW bye-law (I'm still uncertain what "criminal record" means in this context), but I'm not clear if you have the opportunity to cooperate and avoid this beforehand.

 

If you can choose to pay the fine without going to court, have you still got a "criminal record"?

 

Richard

[David Schweizer]

I should hope the majority of folks have a boat capable of more than 4mph.

Yes You are corerct. Most narrowboats will be capable of more than 4mph on wide open water. Our boat has a fairly humble BMC 1.5 but it can propell the boat upstream on the Thames at the maximum speed limit with spare capacity.

[Sir Nibble]

a short stretch of 4mph isnt the end of the world to reach them.

And that boys and girls, is the moral of the story.

[WJM]

"How is it that this was handled in court by a magistrate? What steps did BW and Phylis take to end up in this position?"

 

 

 

Good point. Was there perhaps a lack of tact and diplomacy from either party? ;-)

[David Schweizer]

yes even the back stabbers on here probably!

i know of at least one boater on here whose boat is capable of at least 8 knots! yet they go on like you've committed the cardinal sin!

Why do some people insist on using Knots as a measure of speed on on non tidal waters, on canals and non tidal rivers speed is measured in miles per hour.

Edited August 24, 2009 by David Schweizer

[mayalld]

There is another aspect of this though that is unfortunately not abstract but highly specific.

 

How is it that this was handled in court by a magistrate? What steps did BW and Phylis take to end up in this position?

 

BW taking this straight to court appears to be heavy handed in the extreme, but I don't know if that is what happened.

 

So, it appears you can perhaps get a criminal record from infringing a BW bye-law (I'm still uncertain what "criminal record" means in this context), but I'm not clear if you have the opportunity to cooperate and avoid this beforehand.

 

If you can choose to pay the fine without going to court, have you still got a "criminal record"?

 

Richard

 

A "criminal record" is a term which means "has been convicted of a criminal offence". Depending on the context, it may mean "has been convicted of a criminal offence, and the offence is not spent".

 

As far as I can see, there is no route which Phylis could have legitimately taken to "settle the matter" with BW, and no way of paying up so as to avoid a record.

[Naughty Cal]

There is another aspect of this though that is unfortunately not abstract but highly specific.

 

How is it that this was handled in court by a magistrate? What steps did BW and Phylis take to end up in this position?

 

BW taking this straight to court appears to be heavy handed in the extreme, but I don't know if that is what happened.

 

So, it appears you can perhaps get a criminal record from infringing a BW bye-law (I'm still uncertain what "criminal record" means in this context), but I'm not clear if you have the opportunity to cooperate and avoid this beforehand.

 

If you can choose to pay the fine without going to court, have you still got a "criminal record"?

 

Richard

 

I didnt get the choice.

 

It was initially dealt with by the enforcement officer at Newark. He was a nice chap and seemed to believe we could work something out witout the need for legal involvement, however his boss decided it was a case for the BW legal team to investigate who then decided it should go to court. Both parties kept each other involved in the proceedings. Unfortunatly there was no option to pay a fine without going to court.

 

A "criminal record" is a term which means "has been convicted of a criminal offence". Depending on the context, it may mean "has been convicted of a criminal offence, and the offence is not spent".

 

As far as I can see, there is no route which Phylis could have legitimately taken to "settle the matter" with BW, and no way of paying up so as to avoid a record.

 

Missed that you beat me too it

[David Schweizer]

"How is it that this was handled in court by a magistrate? What steps did BW and Phylis take to end up in this position?"

 

Because, as has already been explained, speeding and handling a boat without due care are regulated by a Bye Law, the breaching of which is a criminal offence, and has to be dealt with by a Court of Law, not some administarator sitting in an office. The only decision an administrator can make is not to press charges.

Edited August 24, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Natalie Graham]

In my limited experience on the Thames, the planing yogurt pots are often trying to overtake displacement vessels and break the speed limit of 5mph/8kph, creating a breaking wash. Indeed they often create a breaking wash when not exceeding the speed limit. They are no better than motor cycles on the roads.

My motor cycles never create a breaking wash

[alan_fincher]

Why do some people insist on using Knots as a measure of speed on on non tidal waters, on canals and non tidal rivers speed is measured in miles per hour.

Or why have BW erected speed limit signs on part of the Soar / Leicester that are in kilometers per hour, (to two places of decimals in some cases!).

 

Interestingly the original version of the BW bye-laws that got posted on here some time back seem to list the stretch between the junction with the Trent at Soar Mouth and West Bridge, Leicester as one of the few places where a 6mph rather than 6mph speed limit applies...... Has that ever been revoked by some later act, or are we allowed to "open up" when on that bit.

 

I notice the Weaver seems to be 6mph too - phew! - one of the few places I have found myself pootling along at well over 4 mph.

[David Schweizer]

Or why have BW erected speed limit signs on part of the Soar / Leicester that are in kilometers per hour, (to two places of decimals in some cases!).

 

Interestingly the original version of the BW bye-laws that got posted on here some time back seem to list the stretch between the junction with the Trent at Soar Mouth and West Bridge, Leicester as one of the few places where a 6mph rather than 6mph speed limit applies...... Has that ever been revoked by some later act, or are we allowed to "open up" when on that bit.

 

I notice the Weaver seems to be 6mph too - phew! - one of the few places I have found myself pootling along at well over 4 mph.

 

Because they have misinterpreted the Metrification Legislation, which has not (and proabably never will be) applied to land speeds in the UK.

 

I would argue that as non tidal water speeds have always used the same format at road speeds in the UK, there is no requirement to apply the metric equivalent to water speeds.

Edited August 24, 2009 by David Schweizer

[RLWP]

Because, as has already been explained, speeding and handling a boat without due care are regulated by a Bye Law, the breaching of which is a criminal offence, and has to be dealt with by a Court of Law, not some administarator sitting in an office. The only decision an administrator can make is not to press charges.

 

So, to link some of the logic of this thread together, not displaying your license can lead to you being banned from the USA for life?

 

Richard

 

1. Non displayal is a breach of a bye-law
   
2. The choice of an administrator is drop the issue or go to court
   
3. Being found guilty leads to a criminal record
   
4. Declaration of a criminal record prevents you getting a visa
   

Edited August 24, 2009 by RLWP

[Naughty Cal]

So, to link some of the logic of this thread together, not displaying your license can lead to you being banned from the USA for life?

 

Richard

 

1. Non displayal is a breach of a bye-law
   
2. The choice of an administrator is drop the issue or go to court
   
3. Being found guilty leads to a criminal record
   
4. Declaration of a criminal record prevents you getting a visa
   

 

As good an excuse for not displaying as i ever heard

[gbmud]

Declaration of a criminal record prevents you getting a visa

 

 

It may prevent you getting a visa, dependant on the offence committed and the perceived likelihood of you re-offending while in country. In this case, while it may need an extra layer of red tape, I think Phylis will still be able to visit the USA. They take a dim view of murderers, rapists and drug smugglers but would likely laugh Phylis out of the embassy for such a crime.

 

Chris

Edited August 24, 2009 by gbmud

[Yoda]

This offence against humanity is nothing compared with what the Americans do on Florida's canals. If caught doing what they do, you would be strung up.

 

Just shows you that the government knows best.

[Naughty Cal]

It may prevent you getting a visa, dependant on the offence committed and the perceived likelihood of you re-offending while in country. In this case, while it may need an extra layer of red tape, I think Phylis will still be able to visit the USA. They take a dim view of murderers, rapists and drug smugglers but would likely laugh Phylis out of the embassy for such a crime.

 

Chris

 

But i dont want to go

[Nine of Hearts]

Actually, I'm not sure that such a misdemeanour on your record would disbar you from US travel. I think this may be more overstated hyperbole from a certain quarter. I had a rather foolish episode in my yoof which brought me into contact with Monsieur plod and his cohorts. I pleaded guilty your honour, Plod committed a little bit of light-hearted perjury to up the ante a bit, and all was done with. I have since passed through the ESTA program twice with nary an eyebrow raised. Yee-haa, as I was taught to say whilst over there.

[MoominPapa]

So, to link some of the logic of this thread together, not displaying your license can lead to you being banned from the USA for life?

 

Richard

 

1. Non displayal is a breach of a bye-law
   
2. The choice of an administrator is drop the issue or go to court
   
3. Being found guilty leads to a criminal record
   
4. Declaration of a criminal record prevents you getting a visa
   

 

Not quite: A criminal conviction bars you from the US visa waiver scheme, where you they let you in if you fill in the little green card on the plane stating you're not a nazi war-criminal, commie, or prostitute, and consent to being fingerprinted and generally abused when you land. You'd probably still be able to go to the 'states, but you'd have to go to the embassy beforehand and explain that boat-license evasion doesn't really make you an enemy of the Land of the Free, or an undesirable alien.

 

Or, when your employer wants to send you on a business trip, suck air through your teeth and explain "no can do".

 

MP.

[RLWP]

How about:

 

So, to link some of the logic of this thread together, not displaying your license can lead to you not getting a job?

 

1. Non displayal is a breach of a bye-law
   
2. The choice of an administrator is drop the issue or go to court
   
3. Being found guilty leads to a criminal record
   
4. Declaration of a criminal record prevents you getting a job at interview
   

 

Richard

 

Hmm, I think I could blag my way through that one

Edited August 24, 2009 by RLWP

[gbmud]

But i dont want to go

 

 

I appreciate that, I always feel it is nice to know one could do something though, if one chose to.

 

 

Chris

[Naughty Cal]

I appreciate that, I always feel it is nice to know one could do something though, if one chose to.

 

 

Chris

 

It appears i still can though. If i ever felt the urge.