Tree Class motors of the Severn & Canal Carrying Company

[Paul H]

Hi Mike,

What isn't correct? There was definately half a Severner on the Ashton Canal in 1970. At the time it was called Ash , though it looks like it might originally have been Alder, but why would DIWE change the name?

Are we saying that Alder was not a Severner , but was built by Charles Hill to the same design , was re-named Ash( which was a S&CCC) when cut in half (why???)

Is there a hint of some 50+ year old accountancy dodge going on?

 

The Severners Alder and Elm were nationalised and reregistered for the DIWE ar Gloucester in 1949, Alder being renamed Ash to avoid confusion with the similarly named ex-Josher motor.

 

The original Ash was not nationalised and went to John Harker.

 

British Waterways North West Division cut their Ash (ex-Alder) in to two boats Ash I (a pusher tug) and Ash II as a paint boat.

 

I am not sure which boat the one at Denham is particularly as I do not know the wherabouts of Elm but it is likely to be the ex-BW Ash II.

 

I too remember the full length converted Ash on the Cowley houseboat moorings.

 

Another reason these boats were unpopular is that they were 72ft long and struggled on many canals to fit the locks. I have heard however that they were designed to carry up to 40 tons which if true is quite impressive.

 

Paul H

Edited June 9, 2009 by Paul H

[alan_fincher]

That all seems to tie up wrt the Alder that became Ash under DIWE. I'm convinced that what's at Denham is likely to be the front half of Alder.

 

I'm now confused about the "real" Ash.

 

I looked at (little more than the top 6" of) a boat at Malcolm Braine's yard in the mid 1970s.

 

Sarah reckons that Ash has been there for ages, only relatively recently turned into a floating one, and that's probably the boat I saw.

 

If so, I don't see how it can ever have been a full length houseboat at Cowley.

 

The one I say had definitely been on the BW maintenance fleet, and presumably acquired by tender, or any of the other practices that seem to go on at the time.

 

Unfortunately I can't remember if it was Ash, but if it was, I can't see how it has ever carried a full cabin conversion.

 

If you had asked me, I would have said Willow, possibly, but the memory plays tricks after 35 years, or so.

[pete harrison]

I think I have found the answer t the mystery, but it will be interesting if baldock can confirm the same.

 

According to an article in Narrow Boat magazine, another Charles Hill built boat, of the same design as Ash and Oak, was Alder, about which it says....

 

 

 

So I'm exonerated - I can identify a Charles Hill Severn boat after all. (I wondered why it's stern wasn't "pointy" though).

 

And Sarah probably does have the proper Ash.

 

And now you know, unless the version Chris knows or gets from Roger Wakeham differs.

 

The "Severn Survivors" information in NarrowBoat Summer 2006 (page 19) was supplied by me, but for those who do not take this magazine I shall explain again.

 

Severn & Canal Carrying Company Ltd. had 8 new motors built by Charles Hill, Bristol during 1934/35, all named after trees (not Tree Class !). They were ASH, OAK, ELM, FIR, PINE, BEECH, ALDER and WILLOW.

 

ASH - did not pass to 'British Waterways' and was a house boat at Cowley by the early 1960's. This is the full length boat currently at Norton Canes.

 

OAK - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat (I saw it as a sunken hulk under the Clock Warehouse, Shardlow during early/mid 1980's). OAK was restored in the late 1980's for 'British Waterways' by Warwickshire Fly Boat Co. and it is now exhibited at Gloucester.

 

ELM - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. By the early 1970's it was dumb and its current whereabouts are not known to me.

 

FIR - passed to Charles Ballinger, Gloucester and renamed BRIDGET. 1964 became Wyvern Shipping Co. 55' hire cruiser (retained both original ends). Sold by Wyvern Shipping Co. and is currently at Bath as 55' tug FIR.

 

PINE - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. By the early 1970's it was dumb but is now a part converted house boat at Norbury and still full length.

 

BEECH - passed to 'British Waterways' (not Harkers as stated in the magazine) and then to Charles Ballinger, Gloucester and renamed OLIVE. 1964 became Wyvern Shipping Co. 55' hire cruiser (retained both original ends). Sold by Wyvern Shipping Co. 1977 and renamed LADY ANNE. 1986 renamed BEECH and last seen by me in 2002 as a 55' pleasure boat at Bathampton on the Kennet & Avon. (original Petter S type 10hp was a museum exhibit at Stoke Bruerne).

 

ALDER - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. Prior to being a maintenance boat ALDER was used in the 'British Waterways' North Eastern (Southern) Division carrying fleet and due to a duplication of names (F.M.C. Ltd. ALDER) had its name changed to ASH. This is listed in the Gloucester Health Register and dated 11 August 1950. When used as a maintenance boat this ASH was cut in two with the stern end becoming the push tug ASH 1 and the stern end becoming ASH 2. The tug ASH 1 is not currently known to me but ASH 2 was for sale in Waterways World June 1978 page 73 (52' powered by an Ocean 60 outdrive but no engine). This is when the current owner at Denham bought the boat and had the new counter stern fitted by Braunston Canal Services the same year.

 

WILLOW - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. 1974 ? sold to M.E. Braine, Norton Canes and then to its current owner in 1980. WILLOW is usually at Langley Mill and is still full length.

 

There were several boats named ASH throughout the working life of the inland waterways (I have at least 13) and it is very easy to get them confused. The current situation is that we have 3 'historic' boats named ASH. The full length one at Norton canes is the original S. & C.C.Co. Ltd. motor ASH, the 60'ish one at Denham named ASH 2 is the fore end of the S. & C.C.Co. Ltd. motor ALDER and the Birmingham Boat Services camping boat was built as a butty for the Erewash Canal Carrying Company Ltd., and is still a butty usually paired with the motor boat COLLINGWOOD.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited June 9, 2009 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

Pete,

 

In view of the fact that you say Malcolm Braine acquired Willow in 1974, but did not sell it on for some years, I believe that must be the boat I "viewed" at Norton Canes around 75/76 time.

 

MB had a stock of hulks at the time, from which he clearly expected a lot of "value added" work, and I don't imagine was in any hurry to sell any particular one until a buyer fitted his idea of what should happen to it. Leaving one in close to original condition was not, I think, part of his agenda in those days.

[sarahavfc]

 

 

[alan_fincher]

That's definitely gone more than 2 years between blackings - admit it, Sarah!

[pete harrison]

 

I will give £10:00 to anybody willing to knock that rediculous funnel off BARNET into the cut.

 

It is nothing like an original funnel and the one photographed on BARNET when Wilf Townsend had it as a single motor in the early 1960's was a mock up ! (well it was an original funnel but only balanced in place for the photograph)

[sarahavfc]

 

Unfortunatly, it's not my boat and I don't think I've ever met the owner! Vienna is mine...although that could do with blacking too!

[Paul H]

The "Severn Survivors" information in NarrowBoat Summer 2006 (page 19) was supplied by me, but for those who do not take this magazine I shall explain again.

 

Severn & Canal Carrying Company Ltd. had 8 new motors built by Charles Hill, Bristol during 1934/35, all named after trees (not Tree Class !). They were ASH, OAK, ELM, FIR, PINE, BEECH, ALDER and WILLOW.

 

ASH - did not pass to 'British Waterways' and was a house boat at Cowley by the early 1960's. This is the full length boat currently at Norton Canes.

 

OAK - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat (I saw it as a sunken hulk under the Clock Warehouse, Shardlow during early/mid 1980's). OAK was restored in the late 1980's for 'British Waterways' by Warwickshire Fly Boat Co. and it is now exhibited at Gloucester.

 

ELM - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. By the early 1970's it was dumb and its current whereabouts are not known to me.

 

FIR - passed to Charles Ballinger, Gloucester and renamed BRIDGET. 1964 became Wyvern Shipping Co. 55' hire cruiser (retained both original ends). Sold by Wyvern Shipping Co. and is currently at Bath as 55' tug FIR.

 

PINE - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. By the early 1970's it was dumb but is now a part converted house boat at Norbury and still full length.

 

BEECH - passed to 'British Waterways' (not Harkers as stated in the magazine) and then to Charles Ballinger, Gloucester and renamed OLIVE. 1964 became Wyvern Shipping Co. 55' hire cruiser (retained both original ends). Sold by Wyvern Shipping Co. 1977 and renamed LADY ANNE. 1986 renamed BEECH and last seen by me in 2002 as a 55' pleasure boat at Bathampton on the Kennet & Avon. (original Petter S type 10hp was a museum exhibit at Stoke Bruerne).

 

ALDER - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. Prior to being a maintenance boat ALDER was used in the 'British Waterways' North Eastern (Southern) Division carrying fleet and due to a duplication of names (F.M.C. Ltd. ALDER) had its name changed to ASH. This is listed in the Gloucester Health Register and dated 11 August 1950. When used as a maintenance boat this ASH was cut in two with the stern end becoming the push tug ASH 1 and the stern end becoming ASH 2. The tug ASH 1 is not currently known to me but ASH 2 was for sale in Waterways World June 1978 page 73 (52' powered by an Ocean 60 outdrive but no engine). This is when the current owner at Denham bought the boat and had the new counter stern fitted by Braunston Canal Services the same year.

 

WILLOW - passed to 'British Waterways' and was latterly used as a maintenance boat. 1974 ? sold to M.E. Braine, Norton Canes and then to its current owner in 1980. WILLOW is usually at Langley Mill and is still full length.

 

There were several boats named ASH throughout the working life of the inland waterways (I have at least 13) and it is very easy to get them confused. The current situation is that we have 3 'historic' boats named ASH. The full length one at Norton canes is the original S. & C.C.Co. Ltd. motor ASH, the 60'ish one at Denham named ASH 2 is the fore end of the S. & C.C.Co. Ltd. motor ALDER and the Birmingham Boat Services camping boat was built as a butty for the Erewash Canal Carrying Company Ltd., and is still a butty usually paired with the motor boat COLLINGWOOD.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Elm was on the Northwich BW inventory in late 1972 but along with others like the Josher Eagle subsequently disappeared. I have been told that the staff in the area were able to keep payment for "scrap" as a perk but not boat sales and therefore a number of boats were perhaps needlessly condemned. However nobody in those days could have foreseen the large amounts of money people were later preapred to spend to restore ex-working boats.

 

Paul H

[Chris J W]

Cheers, Folks!

 

It still never ceases to amaze me, the depth and breadth, of knowledge here!

[Speedwheel]

Malcolm definately have the Willow. I have some pictures of it out on the slip. Did it have a wooden bottom?

[alan_fincher]

Malcolm definately have the Willow. I have some pictures of it out on the slip. Did it have a wooden bottom?

One can only imagine so, and not a very good one, presumably.

 

Or at least that's why I assumed I could only see the top 6" or so of most of the boat, wnen I went for a so-called "viewing".

 

I'm sure such info as I was able to extract, (not a lot), included a quote for re-bottoming in steel. I wish I had it still - it might make amusing reading. I'm pretty sure the quote also included putting a "taxi" engine in a historic boat.

[Speedwheel]

Don't forget it was common to sink them intentionally to preserve them better. Though it could well have been that the bottom was just knackered!!!

 

I'm sure there are also pictures of it being rebottomed in wood though I could be mistaken.

 

Taxi engine. BMC?

[Speedwheel]

Leaving one in close to original condition was not, I think, part of his agenda in those days.

 

He would have known it's significance so I doubt he would have butchered it.

 

Don't forget that restoration to original condition was very much part of his agenda. Northwich, Birchills and of course President to name just three. Unfortunately this did involve the conversion of many others to make the money needed for these projects. Perversely the conversion of many of these boats is certainly the reason that many survive to this today and are subsequently being deconverted.

I remember he told me the story of the Madeley (Josher butty) It was being/had been cut up in Stone dock. He made a call to BW and stopped the work. Bought the bits and transported them all back to NC and then rebuilt the boat (albeit as a motor).

[alan_fincher]

Perversely the conversion of many of these boats is certainly the reason that many survive to this today and are subsequently being deconverted.

Yes and no !

 

Frobisher was an early offering.

 

Yes, you could take a cabin conversion off it now......

 

No, it's never going to look like an Admiral class boat again, because enormous amounts of steelwork were done to "de-Admiralise" it's appearance when it was converted.

 

I'm not trying to be clever, but I think attitudes have changed massively since the 1970s.

 

Unless a boat was something very "special" then, there was usually very little concern about hacking it around considerably.

 

I would say these Severn and Canal Carrying Company boats were not considered "pretty" enough for anybody to really care about preserving them in something approaching original trim.

 

This isn't a reflection on this particular yard - I think the attitude would have been similar anywhere that was turning working boats into leisure boats.

 

Others were far worse, of course - long before they played the "heritage" card, BW were still hacking perfectly good Town or Star class boats out of all recognition, (or even cutting them up is extreme cases). I agree sold off boats that have carried cabin conversions for years have far more chance of being restored to their former glory, than the unfortunate boats that BW retained.

[carlt]

He would have known it's significance so I doubt he would have butchered it.

When he condemned Taplow (a month before I got a safety certificate and licence, for it) he seemed more interested in the fact that it had "a nice sounding engine" than the history of the boat.

 

It was sunk to the gunwales, when he surveyed it, though, so perhaps how he expects everyone to view a boat?

Edited June 10, 2009 by carlt

[Speedwheel]

How did it have a nice sounding engine if it was sunk?

 

Edit: And you are really telling me he 'surveyed' it underwater? The fact that it got a boat safety also has no bearing. You can have a boat on the verge of sinking and still get a boat safety on it even though it would fail a survey. If it was condemed how did you get insurance for it?

Edited June 10, 2009 by Satellite

[carlt]

How did it have a nice sounding engine if it was sunk?

The BW employee, who employed him to do the survey, told him.

 

He was most disappointed to learn that it was only a PH2.

[Speedwheel]

Anyway back OT - Sarah, are there any plans to restore Ash? Would be nice to see it done.

 

Oh and does anyone know for certain if it they did have wooden bottoms?

Edited June 10, 2009 by Satellite

[Speedwheel]

Found this pic. Looks like two of them there.

 

[alan_fincher]

They were definitely built with wooden bottoms on an otherwise all welded iron (not steel) hull.

 

Fairly certain the one that was at Norton Canes in the mid 1970s, which seems to have been Willow, still had one.

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Alan. I will see if I can find some pics of it being rebottomed.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Satellite

[dave moore]

Hi all

Ash is indeed tied outside the paint dock at Norton Canes. The original wooden bottom was replaced with steel, probably within the last 5 years or so, tho' nothing else has happened since then other than bailing to make sure she stays afloat. Despite being there regularly over the last 15 years, I've yet to meet the owner!

Cheers

Dave

[RLWP]

In 'Anderton For Orders' there's mention of ...

 

"The attempts that some carriers made in the 1930s to improve productivity sometimes met with little approval from enthusiasts. Even Tom Rolt, who, as an engineer, should have known better, described the innovative Tree Class motors of the Severn & Canal Carrying Company as ugly and clumsy without mentioning the design had achieved 25% increase in carrying capacity over the more traditional type of boat."

 

(Pg 80)

 

What was the big innovation? How did they compare to their contemporaries that lead them to being described as 'ugly and clumsy'?

 

Now we have established which boat is which, does anyone know how their design enabled them to carry more load?

 

Richard

[carlt]

Now we have established which boat is which, does anyone know how their design enabled them to carry more load?

 

Richard

High gunwales, 90 degree chine angle, bluff bows and short front deck; all leading to greater hold capacity