Tree Class motors of the Severn & Canal Carrying Company

[Chris J W]

In 'Anderton For Orders' there's mention of ...

 

"The attempts that some carriers made in the 1930s to improve productivity sometimes met with little approval from enthusiasts. Even Tom Rolt, who, as an engineer, should have known better, described the innovative Tree Class motors of the Severn & Canal Carrying Company as ugly and clumsy without mentioning the design had achieved 25% increase in carrying capacity over the more traditional type of boat."

 

(Pg 80)

 

What was the big innovation? How did they compare to their contemporaries that lead them to being described as 'ugly and clumsy'?

[alan_fincher]

As far as I know.....

 

Good points...

 

They were fairly revolutionary in using a welded iron construction, (but composite wooden bottom), at a time when riveting was the norm, (they are contemporary with the GUCCCo "Town" and "Star" class boats, which were rivited).

They are very deep sided, allowing carriage of large loads, where depth of waterway permitsted

 

Bad Points.....

They only used somthing like a 9HP single cylinder engine, (Petter, possibly), so struggled to tow another boat for their intended use on the Severn.

They reversed the usual layout of boatmans cabin and engine, putting the engine up with the steerer, and causing access problems to the accommodation when loaded.

They are certainly functional, rather than elegant of pretty.

 

Wyvern Shipping Company worked two (shortened to about 54 feet), as hire boats in the 1970s, (by then renamed Bridget & Olive). In all honesty they were unsuitable, as, unloaded, the bows towered so high out of the water that you virtually needed a ladder to get on or off. (They actually had a ladder built in from the from well to the roof).

 

One has recently turned up, converted, down at Denham deep - Ash, that one is. An original one, Oak, I think, is at the National Waterways Museum at Gloucester Docks.

[Chris J W]

Thanks, Alan.

 

Seems odd to change the cabin/engine room around when the design had been proved so usable for so long, although I suppose it would mean the control and prop linkages would be shorter. (If that would make that much difference?)

[alan_fincher]

Thanks, Alan.

 

Seems odd to change the cabin/engine room around when the design had been proved so usable for so long, although I suppose it would mean the control and prop linkages would be shorter. (If that would make that much difference?)

Yep, I can't answer that......

 

Some info, and a rather poor picture here.....

 

Link to NWM Site - Boat Oak

 

I did actually consider buying one of these things mid 1970s, (Willow, possibly, but I'm no longer sure).

 

If the vendor had told me before I made a long journey that he hadn't pumped it out, and I was going to only see the top 6" of gunwale, the idea might have gone further.

[Chris J W]

Is that 'Oak' on the outside? (Difficult to tell with such a small photo, and my 3G connection has pixalated it quite a bit, too)

[alan_fincher]

Is that 'Oak' on the outside? (Difficult to tell with such a small photo, and my 3G connection has pixalated it quite a bit, too)

Yes, that's Oak.

 

Pictures of these things in working trim seem quite rare.

[andy3196]

Is that 'Oak' on the outside? (Difficult to tell with such a small photo, and my 3G connection has pixalated it quite a bit, too)

There's a bit more info, and a few links to other photos of these boats on the A M Models site

 

( I use CTRL+F5 to reload the page without compression of images - T-Mobile and Firefox in Windows)

[alan_fincher]

Here are a couple in their days with Charles Ballinger

 

Bridget

 

Olive

 

A real struggle to link to those.

 

They are on the CanalScape-BCN web-site, and are I think part of Max Sinclair's excellent collection.

Edited June 9, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Chris J W]

Ta, Mr F!

 

Doesn't look too bad in those photos of Bridget.

 

It must be an optical illusion, but on this picture of Oak it looks like the stern 'flairs out' a little.

 

 

(I keep forgetting about the CTRL-F5 thing)

[pete harrison]

As far as I know.....

 

Good points...

 

They were fairly revolutionary in using a welded iron construction, (but composite wooden bottom), at a time when riveting was the norm, (they are contemporary with the GUCCCo "Town" and "Star" class boats, which were rivited).

They are very deep sided, allowing carriage of large loads, where depth of waterway permitsted

 

Bad Points.....

They only used somthing like a 9HP single cylinder engine, (Petter, possibly), so struggled to tow another boat for their intended use on the Severn.

They reversed the usual layout of boatmans cabin and engine, putting the engine up with the steerer, and causing access problems to the accommodation when loaded.

They are certainly functional, rather than elegant of pretty.

 

Wyvern Shipping Company worked two (shortened to about 54 feet), as hire boats in the 1970s, (by then renamed Bridget & Olive). In all honesty they were unsuitable, as, unloaded, the bows towered so high out of the water that you virtually needed a ladder to get on or off. (They actually had a ladder built in from the from well to the roof).

 

One has recently turned up, converted, down at Denham deep - Ash, that one is. An original one, Oak, I think, is at the National Waterways Museum at Gloucester Docks.

 

Very good Alan, you can have my job !

[sarahavfc]

One has recently turned up, converted, down at Denham deep - Ash, that one is. An original one, Oak, I think, is at the National Waterways Museum at Gloucester Docks.

 

 

Interesting...we've got what we believe to be Ash at Norton Canes.

[alan_fincher]

Interesting...we've got what we believe to be Ash at Norton Canes.

I'm all embarrassed now!

 

Obviously it's not one of those - I thought it has "the look".

 

I can't claim to know these boats well - when I went to look at a potential purchase Malcolm B had made up his mind I should only get to see the very top 6"

[sarahavfc]

That was probably Ash, it's been here as long as I can remember. It had a new bottom a few years back so it actually floats these days.

[alan_fincher]

OK then,

 

What is this, seen at Denham Deep on 23rd May ? (Apologies for a very poor photo).

 

 

It seems to have welded steel on the stem very reminiscent of these boats, but I can't see if it has the "sideways" Tee stud on the front deck that some also seem to have.

 

It's named "Ash 2" and says "Registered at Watford no. 67948".

 

No candidate boats on Jim Shead's list, that I can see.

 

The BW online licence checker gives the number 67948 as recognised, but licence expired.

 

If Sarah has the Severn boat Ash, then does anybody know what the "Ash 2" in my picture is, please.

 

If it's a purpose built leisure boat, it's a bit of an unusual one.

[Chris-B]

I'll ask Roger W for the chapter and verse on his ASH when I see him on Friday lunchtime

I do know most of it BUT I want to get the facts correct as to time line before I post

 

C

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Chris,

 

Must admit I didn't study it too closely, or realise it was Roger's.

 

It seems I've wrongly assumed what I was looking at, but will be interested to hear what that Ash is....

[billh]

OK then,

 

What is this, seen at Denham Deep on 23rd May ? (Apologies for a very poor photo).

 

 

It seems to have welded steel on the stem very reminiscent of these boats, but I can't see if it has the "sideways" Tee stud on the front deck that some also seem to have.

 

It's named "Ash 2" and says "Registered at Watford no. 67948".

 

No candidate boats on Jim Shead's list, that I can see.

 

The BW online licence checker gives the number 67948 as recognised, but licence expired.

 

If Sarah has the Severn boat Ash, then does anybody know what the "Ash 2" in my picture is, please.

 

If it's a purpose built leisure boat, it's a bit of an unusual one.

 

The front half of the Severner Ash was brought by road to the then derelict Ashton Canal about 1970 for use by BW as a maintenance boat. It had a very crude transom "stern" welded on and the motive power was a 15HP outboard motor! A simple wooden cabin was built on that served as a brew hut. In fact the boat was little used but could manage about 2-3 mph with a following wind. There is a picture on the web somewhere of half Ash towing the knobstick horseboat "Medic" .

Half Ash was slightly damaged in the warehouse fire at Portland Basin in June 1972 and was removed by road 12 months later. She must have been sold on and presumably re-united with the stern-end sometime after that. Or did she get a new stern half?

Bill

[alan_fincher]

The front half of the Severner Ash was brought by road to the then derelict Ashton Canal about 1970 for use by BW as a maintenance boat. It had a very crude transom "stern" welded on and the motive power was a 15HP outboard motor! A simple wooden cabin was built on that served as a brew hut. In fact the boat was little used but could manage about 2-3 mph with a following wind. There is a picture on the web somewhere of half Ash towing the knobstick horseboat "Medic" .

Half Ash was slightly damaged in the warehouse fire at Portland Basin in June 1972 and was removed by road 12 months later. She must have been sold on and presumably re-united with the stern-end sometime after that. Or did she get a new stern half?

Bill

Thank's Bill.

 

Very informative, and sounds very plausible, as whilst I thought what's pictured has a Severn boat tradmark or two at the front end, the counter didn't really ring true. (The Wyvern Shipping ones were not semi-circular, but quite "extended" towards the rear).

 

I'm interested in what Baldock can tell us, but it starts to sound like this is at least the front of a Severn boat Ash.

 

But then Sarah believes she has Ash at Norton Canes ? There weren't two..........

 

Curiouser & curiouser.........

[billh]

Thank's Bill.

 

Very informative, and sounds very plausible, as whilst I thought what's pictured has a Severn boat tradmark or two at the front end, the counter didn't really ring true. (The Wyvern Shipping ones were not semi-circular, but quite "extended" towards the rear).

 

I'm interested in what Baldock can tell us, but it starts to sound like this is at least the front of a Severn boat Ash.

 

But then Sarah believes she has Ash at Norton Canes ? There weren't two..........

 

Curiouser & curiouser.........

 

There is another Ash,70ft, which is not a Severner, was it in Birmingham & Midland C.C. livery? I think I saw it on the Hudd. Narrow, used as a camper with a school party a few years ago.I don't know the origins of that one though.Thinks...... could this be the stern half of the Severner, with a new front end?

Bill

[sarahavfc]

I'll try and dig out a photo of (what we think is) Ash when I get home. There's a Photo of it on Andy Matthews site, doesn't show a great deal of the boat though.

[alan_fincher]

I think I have found the answer t the mystery, but it will be interesting if baldock can confirm the same.

 

According to an article in Narrow Boat magazine, another Charles Hill built boat, of the same design as Ash and Oak, was Alder, about which it says....

 

Alder

Passed to D&IWE and renamed Ash in 1950.

Stern end became push tug Ash No 1.

Fore end now a 55 ft pleasure boat Ash no 2 at Denham.

 

So I'm exonerated - I can identify a Charles Hill Severn boat after all. (I wondered why it's stern wasn't "pointy" though).

 

And Sarah probably does have the proper Ash.

 

And now you know, unless the version Chris knows or gets from Roger Wakeham differs.

[Mike C]

The front half of the Severner Ash was brought by road to the then derelict Ashton Canal about 1970 for use by BW as a maintenance boat. It had a very crude transom "stern" welded on and the motive power was a 15HP outboard motor! A simple wooden cabin was built on that served as a brew hut. In fact the boat was little used but could manage about 2-3 mph with a following wind. There is a picture on the web somewhere of half Ash towing the knobstick horseboat "Medic" .

Half Ash was slightly damaged in the warehouse fire at Portland Basin in June 1972 and was removed by road 12 months later. She must have been sold on and presumably re-united with the stern-end sometime after that. Or did she get a new stern half?

Bill

 

This is not correct. The sevener 'Ash' is the one at Norton Canes which used to be on the moorings at Cowley below Benbow Bridge, the one at Denham is not Ash and its true name was not known but Roger W was told it was Ash and so called it that. Once he was corrected he remaned it 'Ash 2'.

[alan_fincher]

There is another Ash,70ft, which is not a Severner, was it in Birmingham & Midland C.C. livery? I think I saw it on the Hudd. Narrow, used as a camper with a school party a few years ago.I don't know the origins of that one though.Thinks...... could this be the stern half of the Severner, with a new front end?

Bill

No I don't believe so - the Birmingham and Midland "Ash" is a butty not a motor.

 

It's one of the Small Northwichs originally built for the Erewash Carrying Company, and IIRC, is a foot or two shorter than a normal GUCCCo one, because of the short locks up there.

 

I think it's even now a camper - I'm pretty certain we saw it being used that way last summer, towed, I think, by an Admiral class motor.

[billh]

This is not correct. The sevener 'Ash' is the one at Norton Canes which used to be on the moorings at Cowley below Benbow Bridge, the one at Denham is not Ash and its true name was not known but Roger W was told it was Ash and so called it that. Once he was corrected he remaned it 'Ash 2'.

Hi Mike,

What isn't correct? There was definately half a Severner on the Ashton Canal in 1970. At the time it was called Ash , though it looks like it might originally have been Alder, but why would DIWE change the name?

Are we saying that Alder was not a Severner , but was built by Charles Hill to the same design , was re-named Ash( which was a S&CCC) when cut in half (why???)

Is there a hint of some 50+ year old accountancy dodge going on?

[Hairy-Neil]

There is another Ash,70ft, which is not a Severner, was it in Birmingham & Midland C.C. livery? I think I saw it on the Hudd. Narrow, used as a camper with a school party a few years ago.I don't know the origins of that one though.

Bill

 

The Birmingham and Midland Ash is from the Erewash fleet of the GU so a Little Northwich butty but a foot or so shorter. It was at Gas St. Basin when we passed through after the BCN Challenge.

 

 

but why would DIWE change the name?

 

They changed the names of several GUCCC boats. Severn Dolphin for example. Also Several got the wrong names put on after docking once, Deimos became Slough, Zodiac became..... Pete, you're needed....