Overstaying, because I have too!!

[NB Teila]

Let me explain.

On the 27th March 2009 We were sent a letter from BW, which

I received on the 29th, saying that MCA ( Maritime &

Coastguard Agency ) has introduced a new statutory

requirement that affects the operators of trading and

passenger boats on the inland waterways. In short any boat

that has a trade licence has to have at least a helmsman

cert. This came into affect on the 31st March 2009.

After a lot of phone calls to both BW & MCA , we are now

between two bureaucracies that have different views. MCA says

we do come under the rules as we have a trading licence,

which means it`s illegal to move my boat without the required

certificate. BW says it`s OK to move the boat but won`t put

it in writing,for me to send to MCA for approval. Oh yes BW

knew about this change was coming in 2003/2005/2007 (

information from MCA ) They (BW ) did say that changes,

maybe, are on the way, (amendments/exemptions) but no time

scale. Which leaves us in the, do the cert and later get

exempt, which is a waste of time and more important, money.

Or have to do the cert. (which we have`nt budgeted for) when

we can, being that they (BW ) gave us 4 days notice. Both

ways the boat can`t move.

So we ain`t moving till we have it in black & white, not

word of mouth. I can trade but not move the boat till it`s sorted.

The worring thing is the area enforcement officer did`nt know

anything about it, we exlained, that He was breaking the law

by asking us to move, which is breaking the law.

So thats the reason why we are over-staying, other traders

are moving about, if they have the cert, no probs, if not,

they are taking the risk of invalid insurance and the wrath

of the MCA, if anything happends that brings it to their

attention, accident/damage/personal injury.

Just a little thought, hire boats have a leisure & buisness

licence displayed, is`nt that classed as a trade or

commercial licence??

 

Happy Boating

 

Garry & Julie

NB Teila

Shop on the Canal

[onthecut]

Dont'cha just love joined up government !

 

Would love to chat more but have got ot fill my expenses form in. Now then -- was my last mooring my permanent home or my second one !!!!!

 

Mike.

[GUMPY]

Having seen this plea before I think that its a bit hollow!

The helmsmans cert is

a: not expensive

b: easy to get

If it was the beginning of April then you would have an excuse but not a month later.

 

I suspect that you are just in a honeypot site for your shop and don't want to move.

[Yoda]

Lucky its just a Helmsman Cert, it could have been a Boatmasters.

[RLWP]

Narrowboat Teila Shop on the Canal

 

Richard

[dor]

From what I've seen, this boat does all in its powers not to move anyway, so I think idleness might be right!

[WJM]

Cruising without this license is wrong; Overstaying on that mooring is wrong!

 

I would be interested to know how you decided which of the two wrongs to choose! The one that suits you best?

[blackrose]

Cruising without this license is wrong; Overstaying on that mooring is wrong!

 

I would be interested to know how you decided which of the two wrongs to choose! The one that suits you best?

 

Yeah!

[luckyjack]

As it stands the MCA has a very dodgey legal remit when it comes to small vessels

super tankers and ferrys maybe, but smaller vessels if it ends up in court a good barrister would make mince meat of the MCA's so called rules.

Under EU rules if u can prove u have been doing the job and have a good safety record the MCA have to offer u the bit of paper (ask them they dont like it but thems the rules)

as it stands in legal terms the only teeth the MCA have is the merchant shipping act and even that has some large in fact gapeing flaws in it.

The MCA like to make u think they are the boss they pick and mix the EU rules to suit them selfs but dont like it when u tell them the ones they have convenatly left out !

the situation is now so bad between the MCA and the EU that some member states refuse to have enything to do with them.

I know this because I have spent the last five years in the coastal salvage game and have ended up in court whith the MCA no less than 18 times needles to say they havent won once in fact on 4 ocasion's they didn't even turn up, now I dont even get a barrister in I do it my self (saves a bit of cash and to be truthfull I like upsetin the pen pushers lol)

Havin said all that if u dont want to end up in court dont upset them just get the bit of paper.

[n.b.Goldie]

Interesting topic this one. I believe this is creeping legistaltion, so to speak, which will eventually lead to all steerers having a license of some sort. I have emailed BW and have copied their reply below which seems to suggest to me that typically they are not interested;

 

 

Dear Mr Durham

 

Thank you for your email, the Marine Coastguard Agency sets the requirement for traders and comercail craft to have helmsman certificates and other qualfications and it is them you will need to speak to. I have attached below the link to their website for you.

 

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home

 

Kind Regards

 

Justin Davies

 

Customer Services Advisor

 

British Waterways

 

 

T: 0845 671 5530

 

enquiries.hq@britishwaterways.co.uk

 

**Discover a holiday like no other - join us at one of our Canal Holidays Experience Days in Banbury, Birmingham and Wales, 16 to 17 May 2009**

To find out more visit www.waterscape.com\events

 

Crick Boat Show and Waterways Festival

 

23 – 25 May

 

Crick Marina, just off Junction 18 of the M1

 

A fantastic family day out…see crickboatshow.co.uk for more information

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From: Chris Durham [mailto:chris.durham@live.co.uk]

Sent: 19 May 2009 09:49

To: Enquiries HQ General

Subject: steerers licenses

 

 

Hello,

 

I am considering becoming a trader on the canal (Grand Union) and would appreciate it if you could clarify the requirement or otherwise for a license for whoever is steering the boat, (RYA Steerers certificate, Boatmaster certificate etc..) . I understand this is a separate issue from the requirement for the boat to have an appropriate BW commercial license.

 

 

My trading will be either:

 

 

* goods sold from the boat.

 

or

 

* paying passenger trips for up to 12 persons

 

or

 

* a combination of the above

 

 

Many thanks in advance for your kind assistance.

 

 

Regards

 

Chris Durham

 

Discover the best of the UK's inland rivers and canals with

http://www.waterscape.com

 

*******************

Disclaimer:

Unless stated to the contrary in the body of the above email,

British Waterways(BW) does not assume legal responsibility

for the accuracy of any information contained in this document.

Reference to any product, process or service does not constitute

or imply any endorsement by BW.

 

Views or opinions contained in this document, which is confidential

and intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is

addressed, are those of the author and may not represent those of

BW. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender

immediately and be advised that any use of this document is strictly

prohibited.

 

The information contained in this email may be subject to public

disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the

information is legally exempt from disclosure the confidentiality

of this email and your reply cannot be guaranteed.

[n.b.Goldie]

A few points I think it is worth picking up on in this post, marked the points in bold, my comments in italic capitals.

 

Let me explain.

On the 27th March 2009 We were sent a letter from BW, which

I received on the 29th, saying that MCA ( Maritime &

Coastguard Agency ) has introduced a new statutory

requirement that affects the operators of trading and

passenger boats on the inland waterways.

 

In short any boat

that has a trade licence has to have at least a helmsman

cert. This came into affect on the 31st March 2009.

 

NOT THE BOAT BUT IT IS THE STEERER WHO NEEDS THE LICENSE

 

 

After a lot of phone calls to both BW & MCA , we are now

between two bureaucracies that have different views. MCA says

we do come under the rules as we have a trading licence,

which means it`s illegal to move my boat without the required

certificate. BW says it`s OK to move the boat but won`t put

it in writing,for me to send to MCA for approval. Oh yes BW

knew about this change was coming in 2003/2005/2007 (

information from MCA ) They (BW ) did say that changes,

maybe, are on the way, (amendments/exemptions) but no time

scale. Which leaves us in the, do the cert and later get

exempt, which is a waste of time and more important, money.

Or have to do the cert. (which we have`nt budgeted for) when

we can, being that they (BW ) gave us 4 days notice. Both

ways the boat can`t move.

So we ain`t moving till we have it in black & white, not

word of mouth. I can trade but not move the boat till it`s sorted.

The worring thing is the area enforcement officer did`nt know

anything about it, we exlained, that

 

He was breaking the law

by asking us to move, which is breaking the law.

 

BY ASKING FOR THE BOAT TO MOVE HE WAS INSTRUCTING YOU TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES. HOW YOU DO IT IS UP TO YOU. HE WAS NOT BREAKING THE LAW"

 

So thats the reason why we are over-staying, other traders

are moving about, if they have the cert, no probs, if not,

they are taking the risk of invalid insurance and the wrath

of the MCA, if anything happends that brings it to their

attention, accident/damage/personal injury.

 

Just a little thought, hire boats have a leisure & buisness

licence displayed, is`nt that classed as a trade or

commercial licence??

 

HIRE BOATS ARE SELF-DRIVE-HIRE SO NO STEERER LICENSE REQUIRED

 

 

Happy Boating

 

Garry & Julie

NB Teila

Shop on the Canal

[ThePiglet]

The boat must be moved, the quickest solution would be to find someone with the appropriate bit of paper and ask/pay them to do it for you.

Problem solved. You now have two weeks to get a decision or bit of appropriate paper for yourself.

Edited May 19, 2009 by ThePiglet

[mayalld]

The boat must be moved, the quickest solution would be to find someone with the appropriate bit of paper and ask/pay them to do it for you.

Problem solved. You now have two weeks to get a decision or bit of appropriate paper for yourself.

 

Alternatively, the OP could purchase a 1 day short term licence as a pleasure craft for the purpose of moving it.

 

So many solutions, and so little will to implement them

[NB Teila]

Having seen this plea before I think that its a bit hollow!

The helmsmans cert is

a: not expensive

b: easy to get

If it was the beginning of April then you would have an excuse but not a month later.

 

I suspect that you are just in a honeypot site for your shop and don't want to move.

 

Nice of you to think that way, it maybe hollow to you being as it does`nt affect you, but is quite solid to me.

You seem to think that I should roll over, doff my cap and follow the rules. The whole point of me posting this

is to show how it is easy for BW to cock up in a big way, if it`s happend to small traders, then it could happen

to anyone.

As the excuse for not getting the cert a month later, there is moves by BW/MCA to ammend/excempt small traders

like ourselves. So after getting the easy/inexpensive cert, then find I don`t need it , seems pointless.

You can suspect as much as you want about a `honeypot site` we have never overstayed here or anywhere else,

up until the MCA got involved. As to many people would complain, and we would`nt want that in anyway.

Take Care

Happy Boating

Garry

[NB Teila]

From what I've seen, this boat does all in its powers not to move anyway, so I think idleness might be right!

 

Nice of you to think that way, it maybe hollow to you being as it does`nt affect you, but is quite solid to me.

You seem to think that I should roll over, doff my cap and follow the rules. The whole point of me posting this

is to show how it is easy for BW to cock up in a big way, if it`s happend to small traders, then it could happen

to anyone.

As the excuse for not getting the cert a month later, there is moves by BW/MCA to ammend/excempt small traders

like ourselves. So after getting the easy/inexpensive cert, then find I don`t need it , seems pointless.

You can suspect as much as you want about a `honeypot site` we have never overstayed here or anywhere else,

up until the MCA got involved. As to many people would complain, and we would`nt want that in anyway.

Take Care

Happy Boating

Garry

[GUMPY]

Nice of you to think that way, it maybe hollow to you being as it does`nt affect you, but is quite solid to me.

You seem to think that I should roll over, doff my cap and follow the rules.

 

Hey if it was me and If I hadn't got a cert I would have made dam sure that I had got one by the 1st April not least so that customers of mine in other areas were not disappointed by the fact that I couldn't be there for them.

 

I still think that there are ways an means round this problem that could be done if you wanted to.

 

Just wait till the new overstaying rules come in then you will have to pay to overstay and you wont get the licence for the following year until the bill is paid.

 

J

[NB Teila]

Hey if it was me and If I hadn't got a cert I would have made dam sure that I had got one by the 1st April not least so that customers of mine in other areas were not disappointed by the fact that I couldn't be there for them.

 

I still think that there are ways an means round this problem that could be done if you wanted to.

 

Just wait till the new overstaying rules come in then you will have to pay to overstay and you wont get the licence for the following year until the bill is paid.

 

J

 

You have a valid point, if it was you. So if they ( BW ) sent you a letter of a change in the rules for a private licence, like you had to have a helmsman cert. Giving you 4 days to comply you would be ok with that? I think not.

You think I have`nt tried to get around this problem, I have and I`m still trying. If I get the cert and they then excempt me ,why should I get one?

I can wait for the new rules on overstaying to come in, because I know I won`t be paying any fines, because ( except for this cock up ) I don`t overstay.

It`s not good buisness to have people complaining to BW.

Garry

[ThePiglet]

Giving you 4 days to comply you would be ok with that?

Maybe 4 days is a little short notice, but I would have one within 53 days.

[dor]

You can suspect as much as you want about a `honeypot site` we have never overstayed here or anywhere else,

 

So it wasn't you moored for weeks and weeks on the Llangollen just above Hurleston then, just as an example.

[Yoda]

This person is obviously not running a business. He has moored his boat in just one place and thinks he is running his business correctly.

 

 

Any businessman would have got the appropriate license straight away.

[NB Teila]

Maybe 4 days is a little short notice, but I would have one within 53 days.

 

Even if you may not need one? there are moves between BW/MCA to change that, amendments/excemptions, time scale, don`t know.

People seem to think I`m doing this either because I`m lazy or I want to stay in a honeypot site, nothing could be further from

the truth. I feel it`s wrong the way the whole thing has been done, now they want to fix it, but with no guide lines of how or when.

 

Garry

[Yoda]

Even if you may not need one? there are moves between BW/MCA to change that, amendments/excemptions, time scale, don`t know.

People seem to think I`m doing this either because I`m lazy or I want to stay in a honeypot site, nothing could be further from

the truth. I feel it`s wrong the way the whole thing has been done, now they want to fix it, but with no guide lines of how or when.

 

Garry

 

 

I rest my case.

[NB Teila]

So it wasn't you moored for weeks and weeks on the Llangollen just above Hurleston then, just as an example.

 

Do you know, when, the weeks and weeks, was??

[ThePiglet]

Even if you may not need one? there are moves between BW/MCA to change that, amendments/excemptions, time scale, don`t know.

You may not need one in the future, however; unless you take the other suggestions in this thread, you do need one now.

Yes, it may turn out to be money spent on something that is only useful to you for a few months if the requirement is dropped but it is required now and the terms of your BW licence required to move your boat now.

 

How long are you planning to sit in the same spot and wait for a decision?

[Nightwatch]

Not that I will ever see NB Teila, but I wouldn't buy anyting from them, just on principle.

 

Forums can be so good to some people, can't they?

 

 

Martyn