Red and White

[GeoffS]

With all the talk of diesel prices there has been some suggestions of using both types. Is it ok just to add White Diesel to a tank that already has Red Diesel in it without any consequences?

[Brin Morris]

Yes they can be mixed no problem

[Dominic M]

With all the talk of diesel prices there has been some suggestions of using both types. Is it ok just to add White Diesel to a tank that already has Red Diesel in it without any consequences?

It's already been done and is available commercially. It's called "Red Bull". Allegedly.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Dominic M

[bottle]

Geoff

 

The simple answer is yes but do not do it the other way, red into white.

[DameEdna]

With all the talk of diesel prices there has been some suggestions of using both types. Is it ok just to add White Diesel to a tank that already has Red Diesel in it without any consequences?

 

 

Red diesel is white diesel with a dye (chemical marker) added.

The only consequence is that the white diesel turns red.

Just a small amount of red will turn a large amount of white red(ish) and be easily detected due to the chemical marker.

[GeoffS]

Geoff

 

The simple answer is yes but do not do it the other way, red into white.

 

Why not the other way? Do you mean because if only white had been used then the red will 'contaminate' it?

[bottle]

Why not the other way? Do you mean because if only white had been used then the red will 'contaminate' it?

 

Sorry Geoff

 

Being a bit obtuse, the reason is that in certain ways it is illegal to use red, ie. in a car used on the road.

 

Using in the boat you could do it any way you wished.

 

Red diesel is white diesel with a dye (chemical marker) added. Are you sure ?

The only consequence is that the white diesel turns red.

Just a small amount of red will turn a large amount of white red(ish) and be easily detected due to the chemical marker.

 

My understanding is that 'white' diesel is low sulphur or ultra low sulphur and 'red' is not.

[denboy]

Red diesel is white diesel with a dye (chemical marker) added.

The only consequence is that the white diesel turns red.

Just a small amount of red will turn a large amount of white red(ish) and be easily detected due to the chemical marker.

Most canalside red is in fact 35 sec gas oil and not derv with dye added

[US Marines]

Sorry Geoff

 

Being a bit obtuse, the reason is that in certain ways it is illegal to use red, ie. in a car used on the road.

 

Using in the boat you could do it any way you wished.

 

 

 

My understanding is that 'white' diesel is low sulphur or ultra low sulphur and 'red' is not.

sulphur is but one difference.

 

My understanding is that the specification for white diesel in road going vehicles is quite stringent in a number of respects compared to red diesel.

 

I think one of the problems with red diesel is that its specification is less precise. Therefore, its precise constituents may well have a greater degree of variability than those of white diesel - from tanker load to tanker load and from refinery to refinery. Personally, I think it likely that these variations might be why issues with certain boat heaters etc also seem to variably manifest themselves around the country.

 

 

Edited because, although I am fairly sure of this, I am not absolutely certain !

Edited November 5, 2008 by US Marines

[DameEdna]

My understanding is that 'white' diesel is low sulphur or ultra low sulphur and 'red' is not.

To be pedantic

 

Red diesel is identical to heating oil and "almost" identical to white. White has around 50ppm (parts per million) of sulphur whilst Red has around 2000ppm. The red dye is a solvent powder called 'CO Solvent RED-24' and is added at 10ppm, the chemical marker is Quinizarin. There is also a trace of Yellow dye added which is still evident if the Red is dissipated and was added to enable authorities to tell if the fuel has been tampered with. These additives have no effect on the fuel whatsoever.

 

The other difference is the cetane rating which is defined as being the time delay between injection and ignition (in a consistent heat and pressure chamber). White is 51 and Red around 42 (the slower burn time is good for slow revving engines whilst the faster time is necessary for high speed engines).

 

Heating oil (which is the same as Red diesel) is dyed with Coumarin.

 

HTH

[Justme]

Well when all the farmer put the "low quality" red into their very expensive, modern, cutting edge & highly complex tractors they must do so knowing that its going to wreck their engines then. This is all smoke & mirrors to stop people from putting red into cars. Red, white & yellow (thats heating oil) are all the same apart from the dye (ok heating oil does come in two grades 28 & 35 sec). Just like white red is available in low sulphur.

 

Justme

[zenataomm]

You sure can ...... then you'll be in the pink!

[stuart]

Blimey, here we go again with the "whats in red diesel..." question

[US Marines]

This is a conocophillips document - pages 5 and 6 refer to some of the differences between diesel (i.e. 'white diesel') and gas oil (i.e. 'red diesel'):

 

Clicky !

[DameEdna]

Well when all the farmer put the "low quality" red into their very expensive, modern, cutting edge & highly complex tractors they must do so knowing that its going to wreck their engines then.

Justme

 

 

It won't wreck the engines.

Their unburnt fuel emissions will rise a little and they won't get the same power curve that using a faster burning fuel will give.

That's all.

[1066]

Blimey, here we go again with the "whats in red diesel..." question

 

It could get interesting. Got any popcorn?

[Nickhlx]

and the other issues that distinguish canalside red from white is

 

a) you don't know how long its been sitting there, ( diesel bug resident in the tank ?)

you don't know how close it is to the intended ( lower) spec of red diesel

c) you don't know whether someone "accidentally" tipped any other substances into the tank ( old engine oil,

heating oils or old petrol etc) as no-one checks and there is little incentive to

d) White diesel is very high turnover at main garages, regularly and stringently tested and of higher spec to start with.

The owners have little incentive to "dilute accidentally" and serious consequences for them if any contaminants

are detected

 

... all of which to my mind makes white diesel a hell of a lot more consistent and reliable than red.

 

Nick

[gbmud]

On the southern side of Heathrow airport is an Esso (IIRC) fuel distribution depot. In there is a huge tank of diesel where tankers from all sorts of places fill up - Esso, BP, Tesco etc. Next to this tank is a smaller tank of red dye for when they send out untaxed diesel.

 

Now, draw your own conclusions about what you buy both on Tesco's forecourt (as there are lots of rumours about supermarket fuel being different/inferior) as well as from the 'red' diesel pump. It is all the same stuff. ...there anyway.

 

Chris

[RobinR]

With all the talk of diesel prices there has been some suggestions of using both types. Is it ok just to add White Diesel to a tank that already has Red Diesel in it without any consequences?

... and when I read the title I thought this was to be about wine and was going to say "Yes - it makes Rosé!"

[alan_fincher]

On the southern side of Heathrow airport is an Esso (IIRC) fuel distribution depot. In there is a huge tank of diesel where tankers from all sorts of places fill up - Esso, BP, Tesco etc. Next to this tank is a smaller tank of red dye for when they send out untaxed diesel.

 

Now, draw your own conclusions about what you buy both on Tesco's forecourt (as there are lots of rumours about supermarket fuel being different/inferior) as well as from the 'red' diesel pump. It is all the same stuff. ...there anyway.

 

Chris

If they dye Ultra Low Sulphur DERV, then that produces Ultra Low Sulphur Dyed Gas Oil.

 

However it's fairly unlikely that's what will be on sale at the marina or "coal" boat. They are far more likely to be selling a gas oil that is not Ultra Low Sulphur.

 

Whilst the DERV or Unleaded sold to motorists typically comes initially from the same tanks, irrespective of the company selling it, it doesn't necessarily retail as an identical product in all cases. This is because some of the "extras" are injected at the gantry when the fuel is loaded into road tankers. That's the bit where Shell, (or BP, or Esso or Texaco, etc), tell you they are selling you something that other fuels don't have.

 

Personally I'm cynical of the suggestion that any marinas and boatyards dump various things into the fuel they sell you. It may not be the freshest, and may contain more condensed water, because of above rather than below ground storage. But does it really contain old engine oil ? Personally I very much doubt it!

[bottle]

Red diesel is white diesel with a dye (chemical marker) added.

The only consequence is that the white diesel turns red.

Just a small amount of red will turn a large amount of white red(ish) and be easily detected due to the chemical marker.

 

 

To be pedantic

 

Red diesel is identical to heating oil and "almost" identical to white. White has around 50ppm (parts per million) of sulphur whilst Red has around 2000ppm. The red dye is a solvent powder called 'CO Solvent RED-24' and is added at 10ppm, the chemical marker is Quinizarin. There is also a trace of Yellow dye added which is still evident if the Red is dissipated and was added to enable authorities to tell if the fuel has been tampered with. These additives have no effect on the fuel whatsoever.

 

The other difference is the cetane rating which is defined as being the time delay between injection and ignition (in a consistent heat and pressure chamber). White is 51 and Red around 42 (the slower burn time is good for slow revving engines whilst the faster time is necessary for high speed engines).

 

Heating oil (which is the same as Red diesel) is dyed with Coumarin.

 

HTH

 

You then go on to explain the difference

[chris w]

Red, white & yellow (thats heating oil) are all the same apart from the dye.....

Justme

The only time that red and white are identical (apart from the colour) is in logistically difficult delivery areas (ie: rural extremes)

 

Chris

[alan_fincher]

You then go on to explain the difference

 

I thought rather the same

 

The maximum allowed sulphur content is 40 times larger for dyed gas-oil, and I must admit I do feel a bit guilty about relying on a fuel for the boat long outlawed on the road. It doesn't feel like the cleanest thing to be burning.

 

I've never seen a convincing argument about how much more we would be paying at canalside pumps, if ULS gas oil replaced what we have now. I've never been convinced by the statement it would only be a couple of pence per litre more.

 

Alan

[chris w]

Apologies - double post

Edited November 5, 2008 by chris w

[bottle]

The only time that red and white are identical (apart from the colour) is in logistically difficult delivery areas (ie: rural extremes)

 

Chris

 

That explains it Dame Edna is in Scotland.