Any thoughts on Alde gas boilers?

[kayak]

Morning all.

 

I know there are a few people out there who dont like the idea of gas on a boat but ive made up my mind that as part of my hot water and central heating system im going to use an Alde gas boiler for when i dont want to light the stove. But which one? Im stuck between choosing the old fashion tall skinny one, and the new box type one. Has any of you out there got either of these? I really like an honest appraisal of them. The main drawback i do know of is their high gas usage. The one im really interested in is the new type gas boiler as im finding it hard to locate poeple that have had them fitted in a boat.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Kayak.

[alan_fincher]

Doesn't the new type mandate that you can't have any copper plumbing, which means an expensive alorifier replacement for most people ?

 

I may be wrong, but thought I had heard that ?

 

You have obviously made up your mind on fuel, but I would stress that LPG costs have absolutely soared, and depending on biggest cylinder you can accomodate, this is likely to be at the top end of heating option costs.

 

Alan

Edited October 21, 2008 by alan_fincher

[chris w]

I just did the following calculation for a similar post so have pasted it here as it's relevant to your running costs in comparing gas vs diesel heating...........................

 

 

If one runs the maths based on current prices and assuming a typical 5KW heater, the running cost per hour for propane works out to be 60 pence per hour based on £22 per 13kg canister of gas.

 

For diesel, running a 5KW heater, it would be 37.5 pence per hour based on diesel at 75 ppl. Heating diesel would have to rise to £1.20 a litre for the costs to be identical. So the ratio means that running a gas heater is about 1.6 times more expensive than running an equivalent diesel heater.

 

This agrees with users of Alde heaters in my marina who complain bitterly about the running costs of their Aldes and the fact that they have to hump heavy gas bottles around twice a week..

 

My calculations based on:

 

Calorific value of Propane = 50MJ/kg; Density of Propane = 583kg.m-3

 

Calorific value of Diesel = 43MJ/kg; Density of Diesel = 840kg.m-3

 

Chris

[kayak]

Doesn't the new type mandate that you can't have any copper plumbing, which means an expensive alorifier replacement for most people ?

 

I may be wrong, but thought I had heard that ?

 

You have obviously made up your mind on fuel, but I would stress that LPG costs have absolutely soared, and depending on biggest cylinder you can accomodate, this is likely to be at the top end of heating option costs.

 

Alan

 

That is interesting Alan. Why would this be, would it be to do with the connection on the calorifier? Would that then mean that i wouldnt be able to pipe up my back boiler to my calorifier because the connections were wrong?

 

K

 

I just did the following calculation for a similar post so have pasted it here as it's relevant to your running costs in comparing gas vs diesel heating...........................

 

 

If one runs the maths based on current prices and assuming a typical 5KW heater, the running cost per hour for propane works out to be 60 pence per hour based on £22 per 13kg canister of gas.

 

For diesel, running a 5KW heater, it would be 37.5 pence per hour based on diesel at 75 ppl. Heating diesel would have to rise to £1.20 a litre for the costs to be identical. So the ratio means that running a gas heater is about 1.6 times more expensive than running an equivalent diesel heater.

 

This agrees with users of Alde heaters in my marina who complain bitterly about the running costs of their Aldes and the fact that they have to hump heavy gas bottles around twice a week..

 

My calculations based on:

 

Calorific value of Propane = 50MJ/kg; Density of Propane = 583kg.m-3

 

Calorific value of Diesel = 43MJ/kg; Density of Diesel = 840kg.m-3

 

Chris

 

Thanks for that Chris. I do like it when you show your working out, its good to see where these numbers come from. The thing is that i will use gas for cooking and only anticipate very light usage with the boiler. I like the idea of diesel but there seems to be reliabillity issues so i think i will go with gas.

If there are any other bronds of gas boilers out there that i havnt heard of please shout them out!

 

K

[chris w]

Re non-copper calorifiers with the new Alde, here's the reason as discussed previously on this Forum..................

 

 

click here

 

Chris

Edited October 21, 2008 by chris w

[alan_fincher]

No,

 

If my memory is right, (and check, because it may not be), the new Alde forbids any copper anywhere in what it is connected to. The coils in most existing calorifiers will be copper.

 

It must be something to do with the materials used to construct the Alde.

 

I'll not be surprised if some one says I'm talking b****cks, BTW, just I have a lingering memory of this limitation, (I think!).

[chris w]

Thanks for that Chris. I do like it when you show your working out, its good to see where these numbers come from. The thing is that i will use gas for cooking and only anticipate very light usage with the boiler. I like the idea of diesel but there seems to be reliabillity issues so i think i will go with gas.

If there are any other bronds of gas boilers out there that i havnt heard of please shout them out!

 

K

Again, running the maths based on my figures above, a 13kg bottle will run a 5KW heater for 36 hours, less of course any gas used for cooking. So my marina neighbours' claiming they get through two bottles a week sounds about right.

 

Chris

Edited October 21, 2008 by chris w

[alan_fincher]

Update,

 

I was not imagining it....

 

"Note - Heat exchanger in boiler is constructed from aluminium, therefore a stainless steel calorifier will be required. Speedfit or other similar plastic plumbing fi tting should be used as copper is not compatible."

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...mp;#entry162321

[chris w]

I have a feeling of déjà vu

[Tony Brooks]

That is interesting Alan. Why would this be, would it be to do with the connection on the calorifier? Would that then mean that i wouldnt be able to pipe up my back boiler to my calorifier because the connections were wrong?

 

K

 

The squat Alde uses an aluminium heat exchanger, the tall one used steel. It is Alde who specify the new one can not be used with copper in the system but others, some with far more knowledge that me, on the forum have questioned Alde's reasoning. Most people use the central heating boiler to also heat the calorifier for constant hot water when the boiler is in use.

 

The old Alde use a pilot light running all the time and I suspect this does nothing to help the economy where as the new one has (I think) electronic ignition so you only use gas when the burner is running. (I do not dispute Chris's calculations).

 

An Alde bod has also told the forum that many people set the old Alde's boiler stat. too low in an attempt to save gas and this also leads to inefficiency.

 

When our Ellis packed up (now, if you want inefficiency they were the ones!) I looked at all options and decide that drip feed diesel stoves were more of a potential safety hazard then solid fuel (no the word potential) and needed regular servicing. I also felt the required chimney height to obtain adequate chimney draw might be difficult to obtain on a boat (lack of draw means lack of oxygen and air velocity and as far as I am concerned that points to combustion & carbon problems in the pot).

 

I had enough of the forced draft diesel boilers when I was on the hire fleet even though we ran them on kerosene so they were out.

 

There is another potential safety hazard with banking solid fuel stoves up at night and during the winter I do not want to freeze my wotsits off in the morning as one would when the stove goes out, so that left gas.

 

I like simple electromechanical things that are easy to repair and diagnose and the upright Alde fits the bill admirably so I fitted a stove plus Alde. The Alde room stat. is set at about 14c and the boiler left on. The stove keeps the boat above that temperature during the day. When the stove goes out and the temperature drops the Alde cuts in and provides background warmth. The Alde is also far faster at warming the boat when we first get on board.

 

I am happy to accept the higher cost, but I am not a livaboard. I think Alde have shot themselves in the foot with the new one as far as boaters are concerned but I also get the impression it to do with bureaucrats energy efficiency regulations.

[magnetman]

The squat Alde uses an aluminium heat exchanger, the tall one used steel. It is Alde who specify the new one can not be used with copper in the system but others, some with far more knowledge that me, on the forum have questioned Alde's reasoning. Most people use the central heating boiler to also heat the calorifier for constant hot water when the boiler is in use.

 

The old Alde use a pilot light running all the time and I suspect this does nothing to help the economy where as the new one has (I think) electronic ignition so you only use gas when the burner is running. (I do not dispute Chris's calculations).

 

An Alde bod has also told the forum that many people set the old Alde's boiler stat. too low in an attempt to save gas and this also leads to inefficiency.

 

When our Ellis packed up (now, if you want inefficiency they were the ones!) I looked at all options and decide that drip feed diesel stoves were more of a potential safety hazard then solid fuel (no the word potential) and needed regular servicing. I also felt the required chimney height to obtain adequate chimney draw might be difficult to obtain on a boat (lack of draw means lack of oxygen and air velocity and as far as I am concerned that points to combustion & carbon problems in the pot).

 

I had enough of the forced draft diesel boilers when I was on the hire fleet even though we ran them on kerosene so they were out.

 

There is another potential safety hazard with banking solid fuel stoves up at night and during the winter I do not want to freeze my wotsits off in the morning as one would when the stove goes out, so that left gas.

 

I like simple electromechanical things that are easy to repair and diagnose and the upright Alde fits the bill admirably so I fitted a stove plus Alde. The Alde room stat. is set at about 14c and the boiler left on. The stove keeps the boat above that temperature during the day. When the stove goes out and the temperature drops the Alde cuts in and provides background warmth. The Alde is also far faster at warming the boat when we first get on board.

 

I am happy to accept the higher cost, but I am not a livaboard. I think Alde have shot themselves in the foot with the new one as far as boaters are concerned but I also get the impression it to do with bureaucrats energy efficiency regulations.

 

 

I do note the word 'potential' but assuming a well designed stove which can be shut properly with door seals and catches and a reliable venting system I'm struggling to work out what safety hazard exists when banking up a solid fuel stove to stay in overnight.

[Keeping Up]

I have an old Ellis boiler which as Tony says is very inefficient. During the winter, if used as the sole source of heating for the boat (which as well as the hot water means driving 6 rads each fitted with their own stat), it manages to consume a 13kg bottle in 3 days.

 

When used in conjunction with the solid-fuel stove (which doesn't have a back boiler) a bottle of gas lasts about 7 days in the depth of winter.

 

The pilot light in the Ellis uses a fair bit of gas too. When I'm cruising I turn the boiler off during the day, so that the engine heats the water and the solid fuel stove heats the living area. That way the gas lasts for longer.

 

Personally I'd choose the upright Alde if I had to change out the old Ellis.

[kayak]

The squat Alde uses an aluminium heat exchanger, the tall one used steel. It is Alde who specify the new one can not be used with copper in the system but others, some with far more knowledge that me, on the forum have questioned Alde's reasoning. Most people use the central heating boiler to also heat the calorifier for constant hot water when the boiler is in use.

 

The old Alde use a pilot light running all the time and I suspect this does nothing to help the economy where as the new one has (I think) electronic ignition so you only use gas when the burner is running. (I do not dispute Chris's calculations).

 

An Alde bod has also told the forum that many people set the old Alde's boiler stat. too low in an attempt to save gas and this also leads to inefficiency.

 

When our Ellis packed up (now, if you want inefficiency they were the ones!) I looked at all options and decide that drip feed diesel stoves were more of a potential safety hazard then solid fuel (no the word potential) and needed regular servicing. I also felt the required chimney height to obtain adequate chimney draw might be difficult to obtain on a boat (lack of draw means lack of oxygen and air velocity and as far as I am concerned that points to combustion & carbon problems in the pot).

 

I had enough of the forced draft diesel boilers when I was on the hire fleet even though we ran them on kerosene so they were out.

 

There is another potential safety hazard with banking solid fuel stoves up at night and during the winter I do not want to freeze my wotsits off in the morning as one would when the stove goes out, so that left gas.

 

I like simple electromechanical things that are easy to repair and diagnose and the upright Alde fits the bill admirably so I fitted a stove plus Alde. The Alde room stat. is set at about 14c and the boiler left on. The stove keeps the boat above that temperature during the day. When the stove goes out and the temperature drops the Alde cuts in and provides background warmth. The Alde is also far faster at warming the boat when we first get on board.

 

I am happy to accept the higher cost, but I am not a livaboard. I think Alde have shot themselves in the foot with the new one as far as boaters are concerned but I also get the impression it to do with bureaucrats energy efficiency regulations.

 

 

Nicely put.

 

Your Usage of the Alde sounds very similar to mt intended use. Do you think that the Compact Alde would me any more efficiant than the Upright one?

Also, does anyone know what is meant when it says on the Alde website that the Compact "can produce 12 litres of hot water, every 30 mins"? Does this mean the amount of water it can circulate through the central heating system?

 

K

[djangobole]

My skinny alde works great, a 19kg flo gas bottle costs me £17 from my local supplier, i dont leave the pilot light on just put it on when i need it and this seems to save quite a bit, in the winter i tend to use it in the evenings along with the wood burner just to warm the bedrooms and get about 4 weeks use out of it.

Edited October 21, 2008 by djangobole

[saltysplash]

I have an old Ellis boiler which as Tony says is very inefficient. During the winter, if used as the sole source of heating for the boat (which as well as the hot water means driving 6 rads each fitted with their own stat), it manages to consume a 13kg bottle in 3 days.

 

When used in conjunction with the solid-fuel stove (which doesn't have a back boiler) a bottle of gas lasts about 7 days in the depth of winter.

 

The pilot light in the Ellis uses a fair bit of gas too. When I'm cruising I turn the boiler off during the day, so that the engine heats the water and the solid fuel stove heats the living area. That way the gas lasts for longer.

 

Personally I'd choose the upright Alde if I had to change out the old Ellis.

 

 

Our first boat had an ellis boiler.....my second had an alde......give me the ellis anytime, no electrics, just convection to the rads. The Alde, a noisey pump running and I found I was constantly checking that it was still alight and topping up that arkward expansion tank....The Ellis has a decent...accesable tank and made a lovely voomph noise when it fired up......roasting cobwebs and spiders in the vicinity.

 

BTW, I no longer have either.......the squirrel and back boiler on a grav system do just fine....my gas bottle now lasts months instead of days

[Tony Brooks]

Our first boat had an ellis boiler.....my second had an alde......give me the ellis anytime, no electrics, just convection to the rads. The Alde, a noisey pump running and I found I was constantly checking that it was still alight and topping up that arkward expansion tank....The Ellis has a decent...accesable tank and made a lovely voomph noise when it fired up......roasting cobwebs and spiders in the vicinity.

 

BTW, I no longer have either.......the squirrel and back boiler on a grav system do just fine....my gas bottle now lasts months instead of days

 

 

I agree with all that - unfortunately rusty Ellis boilers around the bottom of the actual boiler section is terminal in my view.

[sociable_hermit]

I have an upright Alde that I use for hot water. It also feeds a pair of fin rads but I don't have it running for more than an hour, normally, so the radiators never get that hot (they probably need bleeding, too). The multi-fuel stove looks after the heating, so I'm not too worried.

 

The Alde didn't work when I first got the boat, but after a service it's been great. Starts easily every time. The little header tank is awkward to get to, but hardly ever needs topping up. The pump is noisy, though.

 

I think they're worth using if you need a lot of hot water, e.g. for a shower, or washing up, or hand-washing clothes. But in the morning I just boil a kettle full of water, make my cup of tea, then use the rest for a wash! I'm also in a Marina so I tend to use their showers rather than my own (costs less!). Leisure Centre or Gym membership can also be handy for "free" showers

 

I'm getting through a 13kg gas bottle a month at the most. Intermittent use doesn't necessarily cost a fortune.

[david and julie]

Most of the time I use solid fuel.

 

I do however have an older model "upright" version of the Alde. For me the fuel consumption isn't a problem as its only used for the odd chilly night in spring or autumn or for hotwater. You only have to leave the pilot going 24/7 if you want to use a timer/programmer or if you want to start it without getting out of bed in the morning.

 

One thing that is rarely costed in when comparing heating forms is reliabilty and total real life running costs (not just gas). In this regard I believe Alde's are cheaper to buy and rarely need repairing or give trouble but unfortunately the same can't be said for some diesel boilers.

 

I have no experience of the new Alde's but I believe they are an improvement on the old. They are said to use less gas and offer more features. The specific type of calorifier for these is available from Midland and to be fair, considering it should be a one off, isn't ridiculously more expensive than the copper version.

Edited October 21, 2008 by david and julie

[chris w]

Nicely put.

 

Your Usage of the Alde sounds very similar to mt intended use. Do you think that the Compact Alde would me any more efficiant than the Upright one?

Also, does anyone know what is meant when it says on the Alde website that the Compact "can produce 12 litres of hot water, every 30 mins"? Does this mean the amount of water it can circulate through the central heating system?

 

K

 

 

It is confusingly written on their site. It appears to mean the volume of the boiler but actually, heating only 12 litres in 30 minutes is very poor so I need to check what qualification they put on this. For example if you had a typical 60 litre calorifier, you could raise the temperature of the water in it by 38 degC in 30 minutes with a 5.5KW heat input.

 

I have checked their specs and the heater is actually a 7.5KW unit INPUT that OUTPUTS 5.5KW.... ie: an efficiency of 73%. This means that my previous figures were optimistic for gas usage because I had assumed 5KW INPUT. On the basis of their spec, the unit would consume a full 13kg bottle in only 24 hours of continuous running.

 

I have never personally used an Aldi but I have heard nothing good about them from the people in my marina who have them, the moan is not about their effectiveness but alwyas about the running costs.

 

Chris

 

 

 

They are said to use less gas............

 

The gas they use is just maths based on the calorific value of propane. As I said above, a 7.5KW heater will consume 13kg of gas in 24 hours. I appreciate of course that one doesn't have it running continuously but one will get 24 hours use per bottle spread over how ever long it takes you to use that 24 hours. As I say, my marina colleagues get through 2 bottles a week. I would imagine that humping the bottles is no fun either (they don't respect you in the morning )

 

Strangely their spec page seems to have an error (click here ). They state that the maximum gas consumption is 405 g/hr for a 5.5KW output. This would be correct IF the unit were 100% efficient because indeed 5.5KW is equivalent to 405g/hr based on the calorific value for propane of 50MJ/kg. However, the unit is not 100% efficient. They state it to be 73% efficient (7.5KW input vs 5.5KW output). So, as I had already calculated above, the gas used will be 405/0.73 g/hr = 554g/hr leading to 24 hours continuous use for a 13kg bottle.

 

Chris

Edited October 21, 2008 by chris w

[dor]

I've got one of the new Alde 3010 boilers and I'm very pleased with it.

 

It is confusingly written on their site. It appears to mean the volume of the boiler but actually, heating only 12 litres in 30 minutes is very poor so I need to check what qualification they put on this. For example if you had a typical 60 litre calorifier, you could raise the temperature of the water in it by 38 degC in 30 minutes with a 5.5KW heat input.

 

I have checked their specs and the heater is actually a 7.5KW unit INPUT that OUTPUTS 5.5KW.... ie: an efficiency of 73%. This means that my previous figures were optimistic for gas usage because I had assumed 5KW INPUT. On the basis of their spec, the unit would consume a full 13kg bottle in only 24 hours of continuous running.

 

 

The reference to heating 12l in 30 minutes is the additional water jacket which surrounds the main heat exchanger. This is superfluous in most boat setups and mine is not connected. The boiler is plumbed in as normal with the output going to rads & calorifer. I used an Inox twin coil calorifier - bought a lot cheaper than the price given on the Alde website and isn't a lot more than a standard one of similar capacity (60l). I accvept that it is an additional cost if you were replacing an existing boiler.

 

The reference to the heater being 7.5kw is if you use gas AND the 2kw built-in immersion heater. Again this is pretty irelevant on a boat and mine is not connected.

 

I use it as back up to a solid fuel stove. It is significantly more economical than the old upright 2928. I would guess at about 30%-40% better in terms of gas consumption. I accept this is a subjective assessment, but I have 15 years experience of using Aldes on a boat so I think I have a reasonable idea.

 

My unit is fitted under the bed with the flexible flue pipe going up to the roof through a cupboard. It is virtually silent in operation - you can just about hear if it is running by standing outside next to the flue terminal.

[chris w]

It is significantly more economical than the old upright 2928. I would guess at about 30%-40% better in terms of gas consumption. I accept this is a subjective assessment, but I have 15 years experience of using Aldes on a boat so I think I have a reasonable idea.

 

Interestingly, the spec sheets for the two units show them to be virtually identical in terms of consumption. There's lies, damn lies and marketing I guess.

 

Chris

[dor]

Interestingly, the spec sheets for the two units show them to be virtually identical in terms of consumption

 

In flat out consumption, then yes, quite likely. However the 3010 has a two stage burner so will drop the consumption rate once it is up to temperature. It also perhaps runs less while on. The 2928 was either on or off, and still used quite a bit through the pilot light.

[Proper Job]

I've got an Alde upright which I use every day for water heating.

 

I run it for 30 mins and it gives me enough water for a shower, a shave (except a weekends) and to do the washing up. Two months down the line and I still haven't changed the gas bottle (and its used for cooking/cuppa's as well).

 

My heating is solid fuel, but like yourself, I plan to fit a couple of rads this winter so that I can run it on those all to frequent chilly evenings when I don't want to light a fire.

[sociable_hermit]

Flushing through the heating circuit made a huge difference to the efficiency of my Alde - I used to run it at no.4 on the dial and now I can run it at 2 for the same amount of time to get the same amount of hot water. Worth trying if you're using loads of gas. I took the view that it was a "pay somebody else" job, as it looked pretty awkward. I think I've earned my money back on that, though.

[Tony Brooks]

I do note the word 'potential' but assuming a well designed stove which can be shut properly with door seals and catches and a reliable venting system I'm struggling to work out what safety hazard exists when banking up a solid fuel stove to stay in overnight.

 

 

No hazard providing:

 

1. The seals, catches and dampers do seal properly.

 

2. You do not get an increase in wind across the chimney that increases chimney draw.

 

Unfortunately I do not trust the dimensional stability of stoves to ensure 1 can be applied 100% of the time and no one can control 2.

 

I accept it might be a remote happening but recently the BSS guidance has reinforced the problem with unpredictable runaway in solid fuel stoves.

 

When deciding on my heating I decided I'd rather avoid that possibility even though there is nothing combustible within about 6 inches of the chimney and a similar gap for the stove. The tiled surround is on "Asbestolux" type board with an airgap behind it and where thats not possible there is a further layer of the board.