Illegal Earth Connections

[international_boatbuilder]

Having read a recent thread where Isolation Transformers and Galvanic Isolators were getting a right royal bashing, it appears that it is in fact illegal to have a direct earth connection to the metal work of any boat.

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

 

 

2002 No. 2665

 

ELECTRICITY

 

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

 

Made 24th October 2002

Laid before Parliament 28th October 2002

Coming into force 31st January 2003

 

 

Protective multiple earthing

9. - (1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

 

(2) to (3) removed for clarity

(4) The distributor shall not connect his combined neutral and protective conductor to any metalwork in a caravan or boat.

 

Comments from the experts should be interesting !

[Guest]

Having read a recent thread where Isolation Transformers and Galvanic Isolators were getting a right royal bashing, it appears that it is in fact illegal to have a direct earth connection to the metal work of any boat.

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

 

 

2002 No. 2665

 

ELECTRICITY

 

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

 

Made 24th October 2002

Laid before Parliament 28th October 2002

Coming into force 31st January 2003

 

 

Protective multiple earthing

9. - (1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

 

(2) to (3) removed for clarity

(4) The distributor shall not connect his combined neutral and protective conductor to any metalwork in a caravan or boat.

 

Comments from the experts should be interesting !

Very interesting. May I ask where you sourced this info? I remember once when I worked for the leccy board that there was a big argument about how the static caravans were earthed on a particular site (a bit like on here). I wasn't on the particular job unfortunately, so can't remember the full details.

Cheers

CW

 

Edit:

Just found it. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20022665.htm#10

 

I don't believe this is quite the same thing as a supply coming from the psot on a marina, but as ever I may be wrong. I think this applies to the supply company installing a PME supply directly into a metal caravan/boat directly (for the want of a better word). There are very different rules for mains distribution when supplied directly into dwellings of any sort.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Guest

[ChrisPy]

'combined' neutral and earth?

 

the neutral and earth may be combined at the substation but not in the feeder pillar supply that you plug into.

[Guest TerryL]

Having read a recent thread where Isolation Transformers and Galvanic Isolators were getting a right royal bashing, it appears that it is in fact illegal to have a direct earth connection to the metal work of any boat.

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

 

 

2002 No. 2665

 

ELECTRICITY

 

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

 

Made 24th October 2002

Laid before Parliament 28th October 2002

Coming into force 31st January 2003

 

 

Protective multiple earthing

9. - (1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

 

(2) to (3) removed for clarity

(4) The distributor shall not connect his combined neutral and protective conductor to any metalwork in a caravan or boat.

 

Comments from the experts should be interesting !

 

This does NOT mean you should NOT have an earth connection to the caravan or boat earth point at all. As Catweasel rightly pointed out, it refers to the TYPE of supply to special locations such as caravan sites and marinas. This simply means that a COMBINED neutral/earth conductor or PME as commonly used elsewhere is NOT ALLOWED and that a supply with SEPARATE live, neutral and earth wires MUST be provided.

 

If this COMBINED type of supply is wrongly used and the combined neutral/earth connection is LOST for some reason, you will have NO neutral or earth! The only wire that will still be connected is the LIVE. Although nothing will work, the live current will go THROUGH anything still switched on and back to the neutral. As the neutral wire is also the earth wire, which as said have both become disconnected from the supply, and both are also connected to your hull or caravan chassis, the HULL or caravan will obviously also becomes LIVE! A similar situation can arise if you do not have a proper earth to your hull and a live fault to the hull develops. Correctly wired, these situations are unlikely to arise.

 

Not that interesting, just sound electrical engineering logic. I don't mean to offend the OP but this shows how novices generally are unable to interpret requirements properly and get themselves in a confused mess. A novice person wiring his own boat has a fool for a client and a fool for an electrician!

[international_boatbuilder]

Thanks to Catweasel and Chris Polley, reading your replies the penny dropped.. oops I was picking up on something purely pertaining to electricity supply providers and rules associated to only them. This was my first "new topic" post, I will look more carefully next time.

 

Can anyone explain the rantings and frankly offensive remarks from TerryL

[bottle]

SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Can anyone explain the rantings and frankly offensive remarks from TerryL

 

Not really, it's just his way of communicating.

[alan_fincher]

A novice person wiring his own boat has a fool for a client and a fool for an electrician!

That's one way of looking at it.

 

Perhaps I'm just (consistently) unlucky with the tradesmen I'm unfortunate enough to engage.

 

Often a "novice job" is the one I end up doing to sort out the efforts of a professional who really should have known better, (or who did know better, but really couldn't care less).

 

Certainly my last house was a bloody site safer after I had fully rewired it, than the mess that existed previously, (something I'm now deemed not able to ever do again).

 

I will however restrict my efforts to what I am legally allowed to do, and which I feel fully competent to do.

 

I must admit I'm working towards a fully 12 volt boat, electrics-wise, as I really think it's very easy fore a non-liveavoard to avoid use of 240 volts.

[Guest]

Thanks to Catweasel and Chris Polley, reading your replies the penny dropped.. oops I was picking up on something purely pertaining to electricity supply providers and rules associated to only them. This was my first "new topic" post, I will look more carefully next time.

 

Can anyone explain the rantings and frankly offensive remarks from TerryL

I can't.

[chris w]

Can anyone explain the rantings and frankly offensive remarks from TerryL

 

Not without using some offensive remarks about him myself

 

Chris

[Guest TerryL]

Thanks to Catweasel and Chris Polley, reading your replies the penny dropped.. oops I was picking up on something purely pertaining to electricity supply providers and rules associated to only them. This was my first "new topic" post, I will look more carefully next time.

 

Can anyone explain the rantings and frankly offensive remarks from TerryL

 

I seem to have picked up some bad habits recently from Chris w who is not shy about insulting people who appose him, although it seems to be a forum pastime enjoyed by many, so I apologise to International Boatbuilder for offending him. However I standby my last comment and one reason is here:

 

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_hot_marina/

 

I don't suppose many go swimming in canals but there are other just as serious dangers from a live boat. No doubt Chris will want to justify this again as the risk one takes to enjoy boating! Tell that to the father who killed his family Chris!

[chris w]

I seem to have picked up some bad habits recently from Chris w who is not shy about insulting people who appose him, although it seems to be a forum pastime enjoyed by many, so I apologise to International Boatbuilder for offending him. However I standby my last comment and one reason is here:

 

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_hot_marina/

 

I don't suppose many go swimming in canals but there are other just as serious dangers from a live boat. No doubt Chris will want to justify this again as the risk one takes to enjoy boating! Tell that to the father who killed his family Chris!

 

I've seen this article before and agree with the dangers. However, if you go into the case in more detail, it was not a lack of an earth per se but the fact the owner rewired his mains lead (not an Isolation Transformer) incorrectly and accidently switched the live and earth over. That's a case for not having a mains lead at all as I have said before. It does not mean that an IT is inherently more dangerous. It means any mains on boats carries a finite risk.

 

And as to telling the father........ why are you not campaigning to ban cars? About three thousand people are killed on the roads in this country every year. Statistically, that's around 0.012% deaths for each car. Translating that same percentage into boating terms, this would equate to (on the canal sysyem only) to 4 deaths a year from boat electrocution. I cannot find one UK case listed and only a handful amongst the six-fold population in the US. That's not to say each case isn't tragic, but keep it in proportion. Boating has risks - there's no question. Driving has much higher risks. People weigh up risk vs benefit. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

If we wanted total safety, we wouldn't bring mains anywhere near our boats nor would we drive. Boaters have gas, fuel and electrics on board - there will always be a risk. However, the risk you illustrated with the article was human error - that will always occur and incidentally kills many more pilots than any technical faults. (I'm a private pilot).

 

If you used intellect to debate your position, rather than emotion, maybe more people would listen to you. But, of course, one needs an education for that.

[churchward]

I must admit I'm working towards a fully 12 volt boat, electrics-wise, as I really think it's very easy fore a non-liveavoard to avoid use of 240 volts.

 

I agree unless you want to run a lot of 240v things like washing machines etc there is not much need for an AC system. When we bought our bought I was unsure about the rather small inverter onboard (400W) but in fact we hardly use it as all the equipment inc things like TV run directly from the 12V system. We only occasionally plug into a shore 240V source if we are in the Marina and I am working on the boat needing 240V power tools or a bit of top up charging for the batteries. I can see that over time our use of 240V is declining.

[bottle]

 

Chris

 

You were doing so well but then,

 

If you used intellect to debate your position, rather than emotion, maybe more people would listen to you. But, of course, one needs an education for that.

 

it was not necessary.

 

I realise that most of your 'insults' are meant to be 'funny', 'taken with a pinch of salt' but you do not need to do it, to win the discussion.

 

With your intellect etc. there is no need.

 

I believe this latest discussion, as with many others, is over one minute little detail, fundamentally you and TerryL actually agree, you are arguing discussing 'acceptable risk' and Terry is arguing discussing 'no risk'.

[chris w]

Oh but it was necessary Bottle. I really enjoyed that comment

 

I never said I was trying to win a popularity contest.

 

However, you have it correct I believe in our respective positions, viz: acceptable risk (to enjoy the benefit) vs no risk (no benefit)

 

Putting an IT on the shore for instance is no electrics risk because some little b*stard will nick it tout de suite and therefore any electrocution risk is removed!!!

 

Chris

Edited October 16, 2008 by chris w

[blackrose]

Going back to the old hull-earth bonding debate...

 

I think it's generally accepted that AC on boats should be hull-earth bonded, but there are still some out there who refuse to do it.

 

There is a guy near me who claims to be an electrician and says that the theory about RCDs not working if the hull is not earth bonded isn't true because all the RCD does is detect an imbalance between live & neutral and the earth doesn't come into it. He asked me if I'd ever wired up an RCD (which I haven't), and said that since there are only live & neutral connections going in and out, how could the earth make any difference?

 

I even gave the guy an article Gibbo had written but he said he disagreed with it.

[MoominPapa]

Going back to the old hull-earth bonding debate...

 

I think it's generally accepted that AC on boats should be hull-earth bonded, but there are still some out there who refuse to do it.

 

There is a guy near me who claims to be an electrician and says that the theory about RCDs not working if the hull is not earth bonded isn't true because all the RCD does is detect an imbalance between live & neutral and the earth doesn't come into it. He asked me if I'd ever wired up an RCD (which I haven't), and said that since there are only live & neutral connections going in and out, how could the earth make any difference?

 

I even gave the guy an article Gibbo had written but he said he disagreed with it.

I suggest that you ask him which buildings and boats he has ever worked on, and give them all a wide berth!

 

MP.

[n.b.Goldie]

Re the hull-earth debate....

 

I too have consulted a qualified electrician cos i wanted to put ac onto my boat. He said that if i install a ring main then a hull-earth bonding IS a requirement BUT if i put the shore-line input through a RCD/circuit breaker box then direct to the appliance (a stirling digital battery charger/12v power pack) then a hull-earth bonding is not necessary.

 

The guy tested it and it seems to work o.k.

[Guest TerryL]

I've seen this article before and agree with the dangers. However, if you go into the case in more detail, it was not a lack of an earth per se but the fact the owner rewired his mains lead (not an Isolation Transformer) incorrectly and accidently switched the live and earth over. That's a case for not having a mains lead at all as I have said before. It does not mean that an IT is inherently more dangerous. It means any mains on boats carries a finite risk.

 

And as to telling the father........ why are you not campaigning to ban cars? About three thousand people are killed on the roads in this country every year. Statistically, that's around 0.012% deaths for each car. Translating that same percentage into boating terms, this would equate to (on the canal sysyem only) to 4 deaths a year from boat electrocution. I cannot find one UK case listed and only a handful amongst the six-fold population in the US. That's not to say each case isn't tragic, but keep it in proportion. Boating has risks - there's no question. Driving has much higher risks. People weigh up risk vs benefit. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

If we wanted total safety, we wouldn't bring mains anywhere near our boats nor would we drive. Boaters have gas, fuel and electrics on board - there will always be a risk. However, the risk you illustrated with the article was human error - that will always occur and incidentally kills many more pilots than any technical faults. (I'm a private pilot).

 

If you used intellect to debate your position, rather than emotion, maybe more people would listen to you. But, of course, one needs an education for that.

 

If you read the article in detail and look at the pictures you will see it was because of a lack of earth, the owner had disconnected the shore earth wire, something you advocate, and tapped it over. This is just one consequence of this practice I'm already aware of, had he not done that then the chances of him wiring it wrong and creating a fault would have been unlikely. The article also mentions this as happening in other situations with other faults. It is also a common problem with open circuit galvanic isolators.

 

Just because you can't find any reported cases does not mean it doesn't happen or that near misses get reported and what about animals and fish in the water? There are dangers with electricity so it is even more important to take all the precautions to minimise them but I am talking about your notion of protecting your boat above protecting life and limb and maintaining galvanic isolation at all costs and at any risk.

 

If a person is trained to do something he should know the risks if he gets it wrong. Of course this was human error and that is my point about amateur electricians, they don't know the risks, had the father got a proper electrician to do the job it wouldn't have happened!

 

As for your continued insults, sticks and stones.... they and your claim to an intellect etc. say more about you than me!

[chris w]

If you read the article in detail and look at the pictures you will see it was because of a lack of earth, the owner had disconnected the shore earth wire,

 

AND he had wired the live lead to the earth pin ........ it states that in the article with an associated photo for those that can't read

 

 

Re the hull-earth debate....

 

I too have consulted a qualified electrician cos i wanted to put ac onto my boat. He said that if i install a ring main then a hull-earth bonding IS a requirement BUT if i put the shore-line input through a RCD/circuit breaker box then direct to the appliance (a stirling digital battery charger/12v power pack) then a hull-earth bonding is not necessary.

 

The guy tested it and it seems to work o.k.

 

 

I also absolutely 100% say that a hull must be earthed. Where I disagree with TL is that in the one case of using an IT, it is the OUTPUT of the IT that has to be earthed if the IT is on-board. If you earth the INPUT, the IT is providing no galvanic protection at all.

 

With reference to your electrician, the guy is a dodo. One has to have an earth on-board in order for the on-board RCD to work. If he tested it by merely pushing the "test" button on the RCD that does NOT test its efficacy if the fault occurs in a socket or an appliance. It merely tests that the RCD can detect an imbalance. Without an earth to the hull, there can not be an imbalance and so the RCD will not trip.

 

One can buy or make an RCD tester which one simply plugs into a socket and which will trip the RCD if the earth is OK.

 

Chris

Edited October 16, 2008 by chris w

[MoominPapa]

.... it seems to work o.k.

Which means nothing. What we are talking about here are safety systems, the success criteria is not "does it charge my battery" , it's "does it kill someone in the event of a fault".

 

Is your charger double insulated or does it have its metal case carefully isolated from the Hull? If not, then the metal case is probably connected to the supply earth and therefore earthing your hull anyway. You are not protected from galvanic corrosion, but nor do you have a solid, reliable, earth bond that will ensure that the fuse blows or the RCD trips when the cable to the charger wears through and the live conductor touches the hull.

 

Sounds like the worst of all possible worlds, to me.

 

MP.

[Guest TerryL]

Re the hull-earth debate....

 

I too have consulted a qualified electrician cos i wanted to put ac onto my boat. He said that if i install a ring main then a hull-earth bonding IS a requirement BUT if i put the shore-line input through a RCD/circuit breaker box then direct to the appliance (a stirling digital battery charger/12v power pack) then a hull-earth bonding is not necessary.

 

The guy tested it and it seems to work o.k.

 

If your boat is metal then unfortunately he has not taken into account the requirements of a special location. I suggest you draw his attention to section 7 of the 17th Edition IET regulations. There is no difference to wiring an appliance directly or through a ring main, a fault to the casing or from the wiring is just as possible and what's to stop you from installing a ring main later? If the hull is not earthed then a dangerous potential can be created between the charger casing or wiring and the hull, especially if you lose the earth to the charger.

 

An RCD can fail so there should aways be normal protective earth back up where ever possible.

[Keeping Up]

Re the hull-earth debate....

 

I too have consulted a qualified electrician cos i wanted to put ac onto my boat. He said that if i install a ring main then a hull-earth bonding IS a requirement BUT if i put the shore-line input through a RCD/circuit breaker box then direct to the appliance (a stirling digital battery charger/12v power pack) then a hull-earth bonding is not necessary.

 

The guy tested it and it seems to work o.k.

Did he conduct the test where he stands with one foot on the boat and one on the pontoon (with wet bare feet of course) and dangled one hand in the water while holding your neighbour's boat with the other, while you randomly tried making temporary short-circuits (between any pair of wires you could find and/or to the hull)? If he didn't, his test was inadequate. If he did, and he's still alive, then there's just a small chance that everything is safe.

[MoominPapa]

Did he conduct the test where he stands with one foot on the boat and one on the pontoon (with wet bare feet of course) and dangled one hand in the water while holding your neighbour's boat with the other, while you randomly tried making temporary short-circuits (between any pair of wires you could find and/or to the hull)? If he didn't, his test was inadequate. If he did, and he's still alive, then there's just a small chance that everything is safe.

Snort - that's the point I was trying to make too, but you did it with so much more *style*, Allan.

 

MP.

[n.b.Goldie]

I must confess that not being at all knowledgeable I have to take guidance from those that profess to know! I feel pretty much like the fool for a client!!!

 

However the thought occurs to me that when I work on my boat with power tools and I plug them direct into the marina power point on the pontoon via an extention lead with an RCD. Perhaps I might not be doing the best thing. How is it different to plugging the boats system into the pontoon power point?

[Guest TerryL]

AND he had wired the live lead to the earth pin ........ it states that in the article with an associated photo for those that can't read

 

I also absolutely 100% say that a hull must be earthed. Where I disagree with TL is that in the one case of using an IT, it is the OUTPUT of the IT that has to be earthed if the IT is on-board. If you earth the INPUT, the IT is providing no galvanic protection at all.

 

With reference to your electrician, the guy is a dodo. One has to have an earth on-board in order for the on-board RCD to work. If he tested it by merely pushing the "test" button on the RCD that does NOT test its efficacy if the fault occurs in a socket or an appliance. It merely tests that the RCD can detect an imbalance. Without an earth to the hull, there can not be an imbalance and so the RCD will not trip.

 

One can buy or make an RCD tester which one simply plugs into a socket and which will trip the RCD if the earth is OK.

 

Chris

 

I know he wired the live into the earth that's why I said this: "had he not done that then the chances of him wiring it wrong and creating a fault would have been unlikely."

 

You say this electrician is a Dodo so what's the difference Chris, between this battery charger (an appliance) in this situation which you say needs an earth, and an onboard isolation transformer (an appliance) in the same situation?

 

They've both got a transformer and an isolated output which could be earthed to the hull haven't they? How is the onshore or onboard RCD now going to work without an earth? Seems you've contradicted yourself!