Illegal Earth Connections

[chris w]

I know he wired the live into the earth that's why I said this: "had he not done that then the chances of him wiring it wrong and creating a fault would have been unlikely."

 

You say this electrician is a Dodo so what's the difference Chris, between this battery charger (an appliance) in this situation which you say needs an earth, and an onboard isolation transformer (an appliance) in the same situation?

 

They've both got a transformer and an isolated output which could be earthed to the hull haven't they? How is the onshore or onboard RCD now going to work without an earth? Seems you've contradicted yourself!

Here's where you show your ignorance of electrics. If you have a charger on board AND an IT, the charger has to be plugged into the IT supply (ie: the OUTPUT of the IT) which IS EARTHED to the hull and so the on-board RCD will trip in the event of a fault.

 

Fancy your not understanding that.

[Guest TerryL]

I must confess that not being at all knowledgeable I have to take guidance from those that profess to know! I feel pretty much like the fool for a client!!!

 

However the thought occurs to me that when I work on my boat with power tools and I plug them direct into the marina power point on the pontoon via an extention lead with an RCD. Perhaps I might not be doing the best thing. How is it different to plugging the boats system into the pontoon power point?

 

Don't feel too bad, you did the right thing and the wiring should be to a good standard if not the requirements, and at least you've got someone to sue if it goes wrong! Joking aside unless the electrician is familiar with special locations and steel boats he may not be aware of all the requirements, but he should check, his mistake. An electrician who deals with caravans would be more familiar as they are also a special location.

 

Using powertools within a metal boat creates special hazards because of your direct contact with the hull and as well as hull earthing it should be an extra low voltage supply with 55 volts to earth. It's all in the Regs and Health and Safety publications.

 

 

Here's where you show your ignorance of electrics. If you have a charger on board AND an IT, the charger has to be plugged into the IT supply (ie: the OUTPUT of the IT) which IS EARTHED to the hull and so the on-board RCD will trip in the event of a fault.

 

Fancy your not understanding that.

 

That's not what I asked! Again, side stepping the question I keep asking!

[chris w]

That's not what I asked! Again, side stepping the question I keep asking!

 

I stand by my answer. Shall I list all the questions I've asked you which you have sidestepped completely.

 

............and what did happen between you and the DBA????????????

[Guest TerryL]

I stand by my answer. Shall I list all the questions I've asked you which you have sidestepped completely.

 

............and what did happen between you and the DBA????????????

 

What answer? You sound desperate!

[chris w]

What answer? You sound desperate!

 

How little you know about me then

[Guest TerryL]

How little you know about me then

 

I know you can't answer my previous question and usually respond with a comment about me knowing nothing but can't explain why!

 

So how does the shore or onboard RCD protect against all onboard live/earth faults on the primary side of an IT with no earth?

[ChrisPy]

One can buy ...... an RCD tester which one simply plugs into a socket and which will trip the RCD if the earth is OK.

 

Chris

where from, Chris?

 

I tried Maplin and they were totally stuck.

[bottle]

http://www.dilog.co.uk/home/index.php?opti...3&Itemid=76

 

 

Google is a wonderful thing.

[GUMPY]

where from, Chris?

 

I tried Maplin and they were totally stuck.

 

type "RCD tester" into google will bring many results

but they are not cheap £175 - £250 is about the going rate for a decent one.

 

 

Julian

 

http://www.dilog.co.uk/home/index.php?opti...3&Itemid=76

 

 

Google is a wonderful thing.

 

indeed thats a realistic price as well.

[John Orentas]

I believe some of you may be confusing RCD (Residual current device) with ELCD (Earth leakage current device)..

Many people would argue the they are the same thing but they are not.. That electrician bloke that you have all decided is a homicidal moron was quite correct with his assertion that an RCD compares the current passing through the live and neutral, it will trip when those two conductors become out of balance.. 'Without regard to earth'.

 

This is my one and only contribution to this topic.

Edited October 16, 2008 by John Orentas

[colin stone]

>Using powertools within a metal boat creates special hazards because of your direct contact with the hull and as well as hull earthing it should be an extra low voltage supply with 55 volts to earth. It's all in the Regs and Health and Safety publications.

 

What total bollards. Have used many 240v tools on large steel ships both at sea and alongside. No problems. Regs, H&S etc - rules are for guidance of wise men and obedience by fools, and as you cannot legsislate for fools and idiots, the vested interests make it more difficult for all.

 

Just making my own RCD tester. Take 1 plug, 1 2W 2k2 resistor and 1 2W 4k7 resistor. Wire resistors in series between live and earth. This will give 33ma at 230v, and RCD should trip. Power is 7w, but as it will never reach that level, it does not matter. I understand an RCD test button has a 6k8 2w resistor.

 

To make it a bit better take 11k500 and 9k2 to give 20ma and 25ma options and wire through a selector switch.

[chris w]

I know you can't answer my previous question and usually respond with a comment about me knowing nothing but can't explain why!

 

So how does the shore or onboard RCD protect against all onboard live/earth faults on the primary side of an IT with no earth?

 

Nothing will protect against ALL faults whether the IT is on-shore or on-board. The moment you wake up everyday, you will incur risk in everything you do including boat electrics.

 

 

 

type "RCD tester" into google will bring many results

but they are not cheap £175 - £250 is about the going rate for a decent one.

 

 

Julian

 

 

 

indeed thats a realistic price as well.

 

I use a home-brew 6.8KOhm 2Watt resistor wired between the live and earth inside a plug. This will cause a 30mA RCD to trip.

 

WARNING: the actual power dissipated will be over 6W if the RCD does NOT trip. This will burn out the resistor if the RCD does NOT trip, as it's only a 2W type because a 10W type won't fit inside the plug. If the RCD trips, the power dissipation is nothing as the RCD trips so fast.

 

Chris

[Guest TerryL]

>Using powertools within a metal boat creates special hazards because of your direct contact with the hull and as well as hull earthing it should be an extra low voltage supply with 55 volts to earth. It's all in the Regs and Health and Safety publications.

 

What total bollards. Have used many 240v tools on large steel ships both at sea and alongside. No problems. Regs, H&S etc - rules are for guidance of wise men and obedience by fools, and as you cannot legsislate for fools and idiots, the vested interests make it more difficult for all.

 

Just making my own RCD tester. Take 1 plug, 1 2W 2k2 resistor and 1 2W 4k7 resistor. Wire resistors in series between live and earth. This will give 33ma at 230v, and RCD should trip. Power is 7w, but as it will never reach that level, it does not matter. I understand an RCD test button has a 6k8 2w resistor.

 

To make it a bit better take 11k500 and 9k2 to give 20ma and 25ma options and wire through a selector switch.

 

"you cannot legsislate for fools and idiots" How very true!

[magnetman]

Nothing will protect against ALL faults whether the IT is on-shore or on-board. The moment you wake up everyday, you will incur risk in everything you do including boat electrics.

 

 

Chris

 

I feel this is unacceptable.

(as is colour co-ordinated quoting)

 

its terrible the way everything seems to be so terrifically dangerous. I was thinking earlier while going through a lock "This is so BLATANTLY dangerous - I might fall in and drown and die surely someone somewhere should have outlawed this years ago". I was thinking of walking to the shop this evening but as it is a bit dark and there are cars on the road nearby I am going to have to think carefully about it. There is a raised curb so I might be okay.

[Guest TerryL]

I believe some of you may be confusing RCD (Residual current device) with ELCD (Earth leakage current device)..

Many people would argue the they are the same thing but they are not.. That electrician bloke that you have all decided is a homicidal moron was quite correct with his assertion that an RCD compares the current passing through the live and neutral, it will trip when those two conductors become out of balance.. 'Without regard to earth'.

 

This is my one and only contribution to this topic.

 

No such thing as an ELCD but ELCB's were abandoned years ago. How will an RCD trip without regard to an earth return?

 

http://www.greenbrook.co.uk/pdf/pbcatpg21-22.pdf

[Keeping Up]

There is a raised curb so I might be okay.

I doubt it. Last month I tripped over a raised kerb (on the way to the pub) and landed very painfully indeed. Better stick to roads that don't have kerbs - or maybe not go to the pub

[magnetman]

"you cannot legsislate for fools and idiots" How very true!

 

 

this is true. However it is possible to actually legislate in such a way as to encourage them.

 

edited a little bit at the end

Edited October 16, 2008 by magnetman

[Guest TerryL]

Nothing will protect against ALL faults whether the IT is on-shore or on-board. The moment you wake up everyday, you will incur risk in everything you do including boat electrics.

 

Chris

 

There's no risk with my electrics, guaranteed, never has been, never will be.

[Keeping Up]

There's no risk with my electrics, guaranteed, never has been, never will be.

Do you have a totally electricity-free boat? If there are any electrics on board, even 12 volts, there is a risk.

 

For example I will never forget the image of someone who had put his hand behind the dashboard of his car while wearing an expanding steel watchstrap. It burned its way down to the bone all round ...

[colin stone]

I'm quite proud that I have 12, 24, 240 and 3 phase 380 volts on my boat and several of the systems are controlled by a combination of relays and contactors, all of which required a great deal of thought and what "iffing" to ensure the appropriate levels of electrical and mechanical interlocks. Installation has covered everything from filling batteries with 120 litres of acid, running metres of various cables to making up pump control switches with LED indicators.

[Guest TerryL]

Do you have a totally electricity-free boat? If there are any electrics on board, even 12 volts, there is a risk.

 

For example I will never forget the image of someone who had put his hand behind the dashboard of his car while wearing an expanding steel watchstrap. It burned its way down to the bone all round ...

 

They've all got electrics but when I was a young apprentice the first things you were taught were no metal on the hands or neck and keep one hand in your pocket when working live. Any risks can easily be anticipated for those that know and by following simple procedures.

 

 

I'm quite proud that I have 12, 24, 240 and 3 phase 380 volts on my boat and several of the systems are controlled by a combination of relays and contactors, all of which required a great deal of thought and what "iffing" to ensure the appropriate levels of electrical and mechanical interlocks. Installation has covered everything from filling batteries with 120 litres of acid, running metres of various cables to making up pump control switches with LED indicators.

 

I've seen your work, some of it I hope was temporary!

[1066]

I've seen your work, some of it I hope was temporary!

 

Who brought the popcorn!

[ChrisPy]

definitely guilty of forum abuse

[international_boatbuilder]

If your boat is metal then unfortunately he has not taken into account the requirements of a special location. I suggest you draw his attention to section 7 of the 17th Edition IET regulations. There is no difference to wiring an appliance directly or through a ring main, a fault to the casing or from the wiring is just as possible and what's to stop you from installing a ring main later? If the hull is not earthed then a dangerous potential can be created between the charger casing or wiring and the hull, especially if you lose the earth to the charger.

 

An RCD can fail so there should aways be normal protective earth back up where ever possible.

 

I note the 17th edition regulations banded about here all the time, they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with boats. Follows a quote from the IET website----

 

The IET plays a key role in the electrical installation industry in terms of standards and safety and is known for its independent and trusted voice in this sector. It manages the national committee JPEL/64 which prepares and updates the regulations for the safety of electrical installations in buildings, and publishes the standard BS 7671:2008 - the IEE Wiring Regulations.

 

BUILDINGS is the key to their scope.

 

 

Why is there no reference by "the Experts" to the BMEA Code of Practice for Electrical and Electronic Installations in Small Craft ?

Could it be the discussions / battles would end?

 

Its all there in black and white ( never a mention of a shore based isolation transformer !!) This is the boating industry code of practice, not interpretations of buildings regulations tweaked to suit personal opinions.

 

He says, quickly retreating to bunker and donning flak jacket http://www.canalworld.net/forums/style_ima...icons/icon5.gif

[colin stone]

I note the 17th edition regulations banded about here all the time, they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with boats. Follows a quote from the IET website----

 

The IET plays a key role in the electrical installation industry in terms of standards and safety and is known for its independent and trusted voice in this sector. It manages the national committee JPEL/64 which prepares and updates the regulations for the safety of electrical installations in buildings, and publishes the standard BS 7671:2008 - the IEE Wiring Regulations.

 

BUILDINGS is the key to their scope.

 

 

Why is there no reference by "the Experts" to the BMEA Code of Practice for Electrical and Electronic Installations in Small Craft ?

Could it be the discussions / battles would end?

 

Its all there in black and white ( never a mention of a shore based isolation transformer !!) This is the boating industry code of practice, not interpretations of buildings regulations tweaked to suit personal opinions.

 

He says, quickly retreating to bunker and donning flak jacket http://www.canalworld.net/forums/style_ima...icons/icon5.gif

 

Exactly my point about experts earlier - particlarly the IET variety!!