Boat painting

[Gibbo]

Can someone explain to me where the price of between 6 and 12 grand comes from for repainting a 70 foot boat?

 

I've seen many of them done on a commercial basis and it's 2 weeks work (max) for a painter and his chimp.

 

I'm curious why the price seems to be 4 times what it should be. Have I missed something?

 

Gibbo

[carlt]

The same as a few pence worth of electronic components, arranged in the right order, by an expert, makes the finished product worth hundreds of pounds.

 

I know some folk who'll paint your boat for a couple of grand but, personally, I wouldn't let them mark out a car park.

 

You gets what you pays for.

[Ally]

How long is a piece of string?

A repaint ranges in peoples minds, from someone on the side of the cut who will repaint your boat with a can of DIY store gloss, without a sniff of even sandpaper, to a proffessional who will take it right back, treat any rust, degrease, use a top quality paint, layer after layer, and give you a superb hand brushed finish that will last and look good for years! £12k does sound a bit steep though! of course, some may be charging to crane/slip out and into a workshop as well, but a good paint job often takes longer than 2 weeks!!!

The materials aren't the greatest expense at all, it's the expertise in getting it on well, and it staying looking good that costs..........good painters are few and far between. If only it was as easy as it looks!!

[bottle]

It's all in the preparation.

[Gary Peacock]

Depends how you want the result to be.

 

Most builders at least hate paint it's a necessary evil and there are two common approaches-

 

1 Pay anybody you can (Usually the sweeper upper) a cash wad in hand to come in on a night and weekends to slap some paint on bare steel and hope it looks alright and stays on for at least 12 months.

 

2 Pay your own painter to prep it properly and paint it slow and expensive.

 

It is really the preparation that costs and gives the job a chance of a long life, two coats of the most expensive paint on top of a poor base does not make a good paint job.

 

Back in 2003 when we were spraying boats it was costing us about £5K to contract it out.

[Gibbo]

The same as a few pence worth of electronic components, arranged in the right order, by an expert, makes the finished product worth hundreds of pounds.

 

That's a silly argument and I suspect you know it. But if not I'd be happy to explain why.

 

Gibbo

 

It is really the preparation that costs and gives the job a chance of a long life, two coats of the most expensive paint on top of a poor base does not make a good paint job.

 

I'm going from what I've seen in several boatyards.

 

Typically the boat is put under shelter, windows, mushrooms, aerials etc removed, paint well and truly rubbed down..... to bare metal where needed and the rust treated. Primed, rubbed down, undercoat, several coats, rubbed down between coats. 2 or three top coats of maybe 2 or 3 different colours, rubbed down between coats. Decoration added...... stripes, bow patterns etc. Hardware refitted etc. Boat washed and given a coat of wax.

 

I've seen this job done over and over again (probably in excess of 50 boats). I've never seen one take longer than 2 weeks (actual work). Mostly they are complete after about 7 to 10 days of actual work (obviously over a longer time period because of drying times). That is for one skilled painter and one labourer.

 

So where does 6 to 12 grand come from?

 

Gibbo

[Tim]

I was just quoted 5 - 5.5k for 60ft from a 'one man band' with a good reputation, it would take 3 - 4 weeks though.

[Phil Speight]

That's a silly argument and I suspect you know it. But if not I'd be happy to explain why.

 

Gibbo

 

 

 

I'm going from what I've seen in several boatyards.

 

Typically the boat is put under shelter, windows, mushrooms, aerials etc removed, paint well and truly rubbed down..... to bare metal where needed and the rust treated. Primed, rubbed down, undercoat, several coats, rubbed down between coats. 2 or three top coats of maybe 2 or 3 different colours, rubbed down between coats. Decoration added...... stripes, bow patterns etc. Hardware refitted etc. Boat washed and given a coat of wax.

 

I've seen this job done over and over again (probably in excess of 50 boats). I've never seen one take longer than 2 weeks (actual work). Mostly they are complete after about 7 to 10 days of actual work (obviously over a longer time period because of drying times). That is for one skilled painter and one labourer.

 

So where does 6 to 12 grand come from?

 

Gibbo

I don`t know why I`m bothering here - but here goes. You are wrong.

We paint boats to an immensely high standard and charge £8,500 to do so. It takes up to 6 ( usually five ) weeks with two men full time and another joining in for the final week. That produces a coach finish up to 10 coats deep , signwriting and decoration of the very best and a WARRANTY. Now , don`t start telling me I don`t know what what I`m talking about , I`ve been in the business nearly 30 years and for the last fifteen have had an 18 month waiting list, don`t tell me I`m overcharging because I`m not , ask my customers, and don`t tell me it`s possible to do as good a job with one painter and a chimp in a fraction of the time. You can`t. I know , in the main , who`s painting what and where, ( although there must be some good painters I don`t know about ) , I know that when we can`t do a job and are asked to recommend someone else there are only two names we give out if the customer wants a similar standard of work done.

Sorry - but if you want to see "the difference" a few thousand quid can make you need to look further afield.

Look - Boat comes in. Remove all the windows and ports , mushroom vents etc. Remove ALL the paint down to the middle rubbing strip with a scabbler. Linish the entire topsides to bright metal. Use Clean and Strip discs to remove any loose mill scale and wire brush attachments to clean all the welds. Replace any boatbuilders filler you have damaged in the process. Prime with High Build zinc rich primer all over - two coats.You would then, I take it, apply and rub down the next minimum ( steel industry standard ) four coats of all the different colours your scheme requires - although we would looking at up to eight more in places , line it with clean , crisp , straight lines that are neatly finished everywhere , grain the doors , do the decoration and sign write it really well , and reassemble it properly in the balance of your 7 to 14 working days. I guess it all depends on the standards you find acceptable doesn`t it.

 

I admit that all the effort and money is wasted if the results aren`t well looked after , and there are good arguments for doing a lesser job on practical grounds - but that is the customer`s choice and as long as they get what they pay for it should be acceptable to everyone who chooses a different approach. It is perfectly possible to give good value for a lot of money , it`s even possible to give bad value for less money and vise versa.You think we overcharge - come and spend a couple of months working with us. We would welcome you with open minds - could you say thesame?

Phil

Edited August 15, 2008 by Phil Speight

[carlt]

That's a silly argument and I suspect you know it. But if not I'd be happy to explain why.

 

Gibbo

It's not a silly argument, at all. Any craftsman or expert in his field expects to charge significantly more than the cost of the raw materials.

 

Why is your kit so much better than cheap chinese tat?

 

Because you've spent time developing your product, using your expertise and producing something that is a better quality component.

 

The top end painters use the best materials, take more time in the preparation, put on more coats and utilise their expertise and experience.

[Gary Peacock]

One of the biggest problems with boats is that they are big!

 

Property costs a fortune per square foot and boats take up a lot of it this is probably along with wages the greatest expenditure.

[smileypete]

The same as a few pence worth of electronic components, arranged in the right order, by an expert, makes the finished product worth hundreds of pounds.

LOL, I reckon I could knock out a SmartGauge-like thing for thirty quid

 

cheers,

Pete.

[carlt]

LOL, I reckon I could knock out a SmartGauge-like thing for thirty quid

 

cheers,

Pete.

Yes, me too but the point I was trying to make is that the development, testing and refining of the product, using Gibbo's expertise, makes it worth far more than a badge-engineered clone that does a similar job, with less lifespan, using inferior components.

 

Similarly, for £8.5k (using Phil's numbers) you don't expect a man with a can, slapping a couple of coats on, bankside.

 

You expect the best.

[Timleech]

Yes, me too but the point I was trying to make is that the development, testing and refining of the product, using Gibbo's expertise, makes it worth far more than a badge-engineered clone that does a similar job, with less lifespan, using inferior components.

 

Similarly, for £8.5k (using Phil's numbers) you don't expect a man with a can, slapping a couple of coats on, bankside.

 

You expect the best.

 

Indeed, and if Gibbo's figures are quoted for a man and a boy in a shed for a fortnight, they do sound excessive. Not '4X' expensive, though. Also the 'man & chimp' might not be *working* on the job for more than say 10 'days', unless they have enough space for two jobs to be going at once they'll be needing some sort of return for watching the paint dry.

 

I'm trying to smarten up an ex-BW work craft with a view to selling it on or hiring it out, I'm having to be very careful even at the sort of standard required for a work boat not to spend more than the job is worth.

 

Going a bit OT, can Phil or anyone else recommend a product suitable for smartening up a steel work boat cabin which will cope with a roughly-prepared surface and last for a couple of years without looking absolutely terrible? I'm wondering whether the Rustoleum type of product does what it says on the tin, or is there anything better?

 

Tim

[Nightwatch]

Indeed, and if Gibbo's figures are quoted for a man and a boy in a shed for a fortnight, they do sound excessive. Not '4X' expensive, though. Also the 'man & chimp' might not be *working* on the job for more than say 10 'days', unless they have enough space for two jobs to be going at once they'll be needing some sort of return for watching the paint dry.

 

I'm trying to smarten up an ex-BW work craft with a view to selling it on or hiring it out, I'm having to be very careful even at the sort of standard required for a work boat not to spend more than the job is worth.

 

Going a bit OT, can Phil or anyone else recommend a product suitable for smartening up a steel work boat cabin which will cope with a roughly-prepared surface and last for a couple of years without looking absolutely terrible? I'm wondering whether the Rustoleum type of product does what it says on the tin, or is there anything better?

 

Tim

We bought our boat some years ago from Norbury Wharf. great people and very busy and progressive. They paint boats and I asked to be shown work in progress. I was and when i asked about , what how etc. the question was proffessionally avoided. Well done them.

This tells me there are advantages to using experienced profs which "will" cost more but you will get a better product!.

[Phil Speight]

Indeed, and if Gibbo's figures are quoted for a man and a boy in a shed for a fortnight, they do sound excessive. Not '4X' expensive, though. Also the 'man & chimp' might not be *working* on the job for more than say 10 'days', unless they have enough space for two jobs to be going at once they'll be needing some sort of return for watching the paint dry.

 

I'm trying to smarten up an ex-BW work craft with a view to selling it on or hiring it out, I'm having to be very careful even at the sort of standard required for a work boat not to spend more than the job is worth.

 

Going a bit OT, can Phil or anyone else recommend a product suitable for smartening up a steel work boat cabin which will cope with a roughly-prepared surface and last for a couple of years without looking absolutely terrible? I'm wondering whether the Rustoleum type of product does what it says on the tin, or is there anything better?

 

Tim

Maybe Finnegans have something suitable - I think they have - but Rustoleum would probably do the trick. Trouble with the Finnegan`s product may be that it has a lot of silicon in it which could present difficulties if the boat is subsequently painted with something else. Not your problem though!

Cheers

Phil

[Gibbo]

It's not a silly argument, at all. Any craftsman or expert in his field expects to charge significantly more than the cost of the raw materials.

 

Well it is. You said "a few pence worth of electronic components, arranged in the right order, by an expert, makes the finished product worth hundreds of pounds"

 

If you think an electronic product that sells for "hundreds of pounds" contains "a few pence worth of components" you are out by about 500 fold just on the cost of the components. That's pretty innacurate!

 

A new (as in not simply a copy of something else) electronic product that sells for "a few hundred pounds" will have somewhere between between 2 and 50 man.years of research and development in it (that isn't a typo). That's in that one product alone. How many years research go into painting *one* boat? A few days? A couple of hours? I'm not on about training and learning a craft here, I'm on about the work involved *after* all that has been done in order to produce *one* product.

 

(snip)

 

The top end painters use the best materials, take more time in the preparation, put on more coats and utilise their expertise and experience.

 

All I'm going from is what I have seen with my own eyes. Usually 2 blokes (and usually one a painter and one a labourer) charging between 6 and 12 grand for 10 to 14 days work. It's no good telling me there is more work than that involved because I've watched it done many times.

 

Maybe the *several* boatyards I've watched doing it are overcharging compared to the work Phil puts into his repaints. But as I've seen several charging similar prices for similar work that would appear to be the norm.

 

Gibbo

 

LOL, I reckon I could knock out a SmartGauge-like thing for thirty quid

 

LOL. If only. I can't get the cost down anything close to that even having them produced in enormous quantities.

 

Thirty quid wouldn't even get the CNC machine programmed to cut the hole in the overlay.

 

Gibbo

 

I don`t know why I`m bothering here - but here goes. You are wrong.

 

In what way am I wrong? I *know* what figures I have been quoted. I *know* what prices people have paid. I have watched several boatyards paint several boats and I have seen exactly how much work they have put in to each job.

 

Maybe you do more work on the boats than most. But the boatyards I've seen do repaints do not do anything like the amount of work you described. Not even close. Yet they are still charging the same figures.

 

Gibbo

[carlt]

So Phil Speight, who has been doing his job for 30 years and is acknowledged as one of the finest exponents of his craft, is wrong, and you're right,yet if anyone should challenge you, in your area of expertise (battery monitoring) you belittle them.

 

Your argument seems to be based on arrogance and a poor choice of boat painters.

[Gibbo]

So Phil Speight, who has been doing his job for 30 years and is acknowledged as one of the finest exponents of his craft, is wrong, and you're right,yet if anyone should challenge you, in your area of expertise (battery monitoring) you belittle them.

 

You have a very strange (or perhaps no) logic. On what do you base this?

 

I KNOW what I have been quoted.

 

I KNOW what other people have paid.

 

I KNOW how much work I have seen several boatyards carry out performing several repaints (including the three that have given me quotes).

 

Which of these do you think I am mistaken on?

 

The fact that Phil does more work than the several boatyards I have watched does *not* mean those other boatyards somehow do more. Unless, of course, there is some logical reason you think it does.

 

Gibbo

[carlt]

But if they are painting boats to the standard you say then the simple answer to your question is:

 

Go elsewhere because if one man and his lad are doing the job in a fortnight then they are heavily overcharging.

 

There are plenty of cheaper painters out there and some who'll pay top whack and do a top quality job. It's hit and miss.

 

Just the same as there are Battery monitors and split chargers out there that don't come close to yours, in performance, but exceed them, in price.

[GSer]

The money you pay a specialist Craftsman for his services, reflects his knowledge.

 

Your not paying for a few hours work, your paying for a lifetimes experience.

 

 

 

 

'A plumber once charged a woman £20 for changing a tap washer, which took him about 5 minutes to do.

 

The lady complained when he gave her the bill, so he amended to read:

 

Supply of tap washer: 10p

Knowing how to fit it: £19.90p'

 

 

Paul

[Machpoint005]

You have a very strange (or perhaps no) logic. On what do you base this?

 

I KNOW what I have been quoted.

 

I KNOW what other people have paid.

 

I KNOW how much work I have seen several boatyards carry out performing several repaints (including the three that have given me quotes).

 

Which of these do you think I am mistaken on?

 

The fact that Phil does more work than the several boatyards I have watched does *not* mean those other boatyards somehow do more. Unless, of course, there is some logical reason you think it does.

 

Gibbo

Regardless of how much you have been quoted, how much would you want to charge to do it yourself? Take into account the two weeks (or more) for which you are not working, and therefore not getting any wage, the cost of materials, rental on a suitable paint shed, cost of tools and consumables, and the fact that it will take you longer than the expert to do it, with (probably) inferior results. Also, can you be mithered to do it yourself? Well, that's why the professionals charge more. If you think they are charging too much, you are free to go somewhere else. But if you want monkeys, pay peanuts.

[Phil Speight]

You have a very strange (or perhaps no) logic. On what do you base this?

 

I KNOW what I have been quoted.

 

I KNOW what other people have paid.

 

I KNOW how much work I have seen several boatyards carry out performing several repaints (including the three that have given me quotes).

 

Which of these do you think I am mistaken on?

 

The fact that Phil does more work than the several boatyards I have watched does *not* mean those other boatyards somehow do more. Unless, of course, there is some logical reason you think it does.

 

Gibbo

I`m not sure where I fit in this anymore ! Guys - don`t fall out over this. It`s very difficult to analyse the differences between a really good paintjob and a really REALLY good paint job , specially when some of the work that seperates the two may not appear to be particularly cost effective ! You would finish up having to put a value on the moments quiet pleasure when you contemplate a particular line or curve or bit of finishing for the first time. Both will please the customer who made the choice in the first place as long as both offer fair value for money. Honestly my biggest gripe is when a customer pays one painter three grand for a job and then complains when it doesn`t look as good as one someone else has paid twice as much for ! "Be fair to the painters" is my cry - as long as you get what you pay for you should have nothing to complain about.

Cheers - and while I`m grateful for such kind support - please , again , don`t fall out over something so hard to pin down.

Phil

[Big COL]

The money you pay a specialist Craftsman for his services, reflects his knowledge.

 

Your not paying for a few hours work, your paying for a lifetimes experience.

 

 

 

 

'A plumber once charged a woman £20 for changing a tap washer, which took him about 5 minutes to do.

 

The lady complained when he gave her the bill, so he amended to read:

 

Supply of tap washer: 10p

Knowing how to fit it: £19.90p'

 

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul

What a load of b-----s that is, knowing how to fit it, what crap. Has this plumber spent half his life in learning how to fit a washer? answer NO. Shown to him as an apprentice, this is how you do it 5 Min instruction. Typical rip off to charge £20 to do so.

[LEO]

Hi Paul

What a load of b-----s that is, knowing how to fit it, what crap. Has this plumber spent half his life in learning how to fit a washer? answer NO. Shown to him as an apprentice, this is how you do it 5 Min instruction. Typical rip off to charge £20 to do so.

 

True, but the guy had to travel to the job, providing and paying for transport, purchase the tools and (all forgotten too often in these 'cowboy 'days) if he is a decent professional have 3rd party insurance.

 

Also, people are entitled to earn a reasonable living from their honest toil.

 

You get what you pay for and £8000 to get a 60/70ft boat painted, bearing in mind the overheads, seems reasonable to me. The finished job, if looked after carefully and it's not a 'fading' colour, should have a service life of 15 years.

 

If someone has a long waiting list of clients wanting work it suggests that their work is good and prices are about right.

 

Albi

[blackrose]

There's a guy painting a 40' narrowboat near me, doing all the work by himself. So far he's taken about a week in preparation and has just got a coat of primer on. Ok, he's not removing the windows and mushroom vents but he's doing a good job and having talked to him about paint he seems to know what he's doing. Anyway, I asked him about doing my 12' x 57' widebeam and he quoted me £1,800 (not including paint), which having seen some of the figures on this thread seems like a very good price.