Aluminium Bars to Marsworth

[Catrin]

Both Susan Woolfitt and Margaret Cornish write about taking aluminium bars to Marsworth from London during the war in their Working Waterways books. Any expert out there know why? Or anything more about it?

 

Why bars, and not parts? Where in Marsworth would they have unloaded - the BW wharf? I can't think of anywhere else you could unload a pair of boats. Where were the bars destined for? Was there any factory or works locally which used the bars? If so what for? Or was it another case of unloading the goods which were then transferred to lorry and taken elsewhere?

 

Puzzled

Cath

[Hairy-Neil]

Why bars, and not parts?

 

Puzzled

Cath

 

Probably ingots for a guess....

[Liam]

Something to do with the war, possibly?

 

I don't know if you have the book there, I have it here so if you need me to check it for you then let me know

[Steve King]

Both Susan Woolfitt and Margaret Cornish write about taking aluminium bars to Marsworth from London during the war in their Working Waterways books. Any expert out there know why? Or anything more about it?

 

Why bars, and not parts? Where in Marsworth would they have unloaded - the BW wharf? I can't think of anywhere else you could unload a pair of boats. Where were the bars destined for? Was there any factory or works locally which used the bars? If so what for? Or was it another case of unloading the goods which were then transferred to lorry and taken elsewhere?

 

Now Cath, you must realise that if they'd answered all those questions they would have had to shoot us!

 

I would guess that the bars were imported from overseas via ship into the Port of London, transhipped into lighters for the journey to Brentford, then transhipped again to narrowboats for delivery to Marsworth. The bars would simply be the form of cast aluminium, rather like the more familiar gold bars.

 

Back in the 1970s I was intrigued to see one of those bland but unmistakeable brick-built WWII warehouses next to the canal somewhere above Cowroast Lock. It had the look of a 'Buffer Food Store' about it and was provided with a steel-piled wharf. I think it has been replaced by a much more modern building viz:

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=e...mp;t=h&z=18

 

which appears to be in the same location. I wonder if this is government owned?

 

The only problem is, it's not at Marsworth. Not that far away, but not Marsworth.

 

 

Steve

[Catrin]

Thanks Liam, I have copies of both Idle Women and Troubled Waters - it's just that I've recently reread both the books and been wondering about why they were taking aluminium bars (yes, I suppose ingots) to Marsworth. Knowing the area quite well I've become puzzled about what there was at Marsworth that required aluminium. There is nothing there now - just fields.

 

I know that there was an RAF camp there during the war as I know someone who grew up in there in the 50's when it was used to house Polish immigrant families - but I really can't think of any possible use of aluminium ingots there. Was there possibly a factory that was used for aircraft parts, or something similar?

 

Cheers

Cath

[alan_fincher]

Steve,

 

Those buildings were "Buffer depots 4N and 4P". (My father worked for the rating office of the Berkhamsted Rural District Council, and they were on his "patch".)

 

By my childhood, they were still massive food stores, maintained in case of national emergency. (Mostly long life tinned stuff, I was led to believe).

 

It's still the same austere buildings standing in that aerial shot, albeit that they now have windows and extra doors added, (which you can't see from above ).

 

They ceased to be "ministry" some time ago, and are all now local business premises. (Sizable lorries deliver, not unsurprisingly).

 

Food was certainly taken there by boat, but I think it's completely different to where aluminium bars/ingots were being shipped in the war.

[Catrin]

Now Cath, you must realise that if they'd answered all those questions they would have had to shoot us!

Back in the 1970s I was intrigued to see one of those bland but unmistakeable brick-built WWII warehouses next to the canal somewhere above Cowroast Lock. It had the look of a 'Buffer Food Store' about it and was provided with a steel-piled wharf. I think it has been replaced by a much more modern building viz:

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=e...mp;t=h&z=18

 

which appears to be in the same location. I wonder if this is government owned?

 

I know these buildings, they are very near to the marina - and, yes, they used to be "Buffer Food Stores" - I think one of the "Working Waterways " books mentioned transporting milk powder (or something similar) to them. Through the 80's they were still Buffer Stores - presumable against the threat of nuclear war! (I'm actually quite disturbed that I know this fact, where on earth has that knowledge come from?) They are basically the same buildings but have been cleaned up and (probably) re-roofed, and at least some of them are now used by a vitamin company.

 

I don't think that this was where they meant when they said Marsworth with the aluminium, but I could be wrong (by about 4 miles)

 

BLAST!!!! Deeply irritated that OH has got there before me!!!!

Cheers

Cath

[alan_fincher]

BLAST!!!! Deeply irritated that OH has got there before me!!!!

Cheers

Cath

Oops! Sorry My Love!

 

It wasn't an early start up venture for prototype Sea Otter boats, by any chance, was it!

[New hope]

Around the end of the 1939-45 war there was considerable re-location of stocks of aluminium, some of it carried out by canal. I came across a mention of aluminium from Aylesbury while doing some other research. This may explain the carriage of aluminium to Marsworth. Perhaps there was a water shortage on the Aylesbury branch at the time.

Something for somebody to research?

[LEO]

Both Susan Woolfitt and Margaret Cornish write about taking aluminium bars to Marsworth from London during the war in their Working Waterways books. Any expert out there know why? Or anything more about it?

 

Why bars, and not parts? Where in Marsworth would they have unloaded - the BW wharf? I can't think of anywhere else you could unload a pair of boats. Where were the bars destined for? Was there any factory or works locally which used the bars? If so what for? Or was it another case of unloading the goods which were then transferred to lorry and taken elsewhere?

 

Puzzled

Cath

 

 

Hi,

 

The aluminium may have come from or was bound for International Alloys factory at Aylesbury, this was a large smelting works situated on the A41 out of the town (where the large Tesco store is). There was another International Alloys factory on the Slough trading estate.

 

Cheddington airfield was built for the RAF, but was occupied mainly by the USAF (see memorial by the old gates) and may have been a 'satellite' airfield for Bovingdon (also USAF) - amazing R&R house the used at Colinwood between there and Watford.

 

The former buffer depot was sold 'quietly' - it would have made a good boatbuilding /repair works (subject to planning) Solgar health Foods have part of it now. I suspect the old asbestos roof was very costly to dispose of.

 

Sounds as if you are having a good trip.

 

Mike.

[antarmike]

Regarding the Buffer Depots, I was told by Jim Wallington, that during the war he regularly carried food down the Wendover Arm with Bilster, and the food was stored within the buildings at Little Tring Pumping station, and these buildings were requisitioned for the use of food storage. This seems odd if a much larger, purpose built facility was available only a few miles away. I am therefore not entirely sure the Buffer depot on the summit was actually a wartime structure. Photographs of known wartime buffer depots show the brickwork painted in camouflage. There is no such painting of the Tring Buffer depot. The Buffet depot scheme was greatly increased post war, to re-assure the public everything would be Okay after a Nuclear war and that Nuclear war was survivable and life would go on.

 

Whilst acknowledging International Alloys were in Aylesbury it would seem they were Aluminium smelters and they processed scrap Aluminium to produce ingots for industry. Unless processed pure aluminium was going there for smelting and alloying into something more exotic (Duralumin, Hiduminium or their ilk) it seems far more likely that goods into International Alloys would be impure scrap (engines and the like along with the thousands and millions of surrendered cooking utensils given up by an eager populace believing these were required for Spitfire production) and the product leaving International Alloys would be ingots. The traffic seems to be in the wrong direction!

 

It seems to me that a far more likely destination for Aluminium Bars (or maybe ingots) would be "The Bifurcated and Tubular Rivet Company". They were based, since 1910, in Mandeville Road, Aylesbury.

 

Known to everyone locally just as "Rivets" it was once one of Aylesbury's largest employers and their products were much in demand for Aircaft Production. They were a major league supplier to the aircraft industry, in continuous production 24 hours a day 7 days a week throughout most of the war. And as such they were undoubtedly a large user of Aluminium in Aylesbury, and might be calling down stock as required from Marsworth.

 

We are talking wartime, where satellite factories where set up everywhere, and production (and presumably raw goods) were located in as many diverse locations as possible to minimise the risk of lost production and damage to products caused by Luftwaffe bombing. It might have been deemed necessary as part of this plan to keep Raw Aluminium away from the processing factories, until actually needed.

 

Since "Rivets" were not canalside the aluminium would have to be trans-shipped by road, so maybe Marsworth made as much sense as a transshipment point as Aylesbury basin. (Why Double lock a pair down the narrow arm, if at the end you still had to unload to lorry for final delivery to Mandeville Road? And especially so if it was an all woman crew who would have ended up bow hauling a laden Butty at times) The road journey from Marsworth would have been around ten miles rather than two from Aylesbury basin.

 

If the end use was rivets, the stock was probably round bar, that would be drawn down through dies to achieve the stem diameter before heading, so it could be that the reference is to round bars rather than ingots. The book description of the cargo as "bars" makes perfect sense if this is the case.

Edited August 12, 2012 by antarmike

[Chertsey]

That has to go down as one of my favourite company names ever. Why don't companies have names like that any more?

[antarmike]

That has to go down as one of my favourite company names ever. Why don't companies have names like that any more?

 

Also known locally as "Bif & Tub" which has a nice ring to it.

Company History

Quote from Company History

"During the build up to the First World War the company expanded rapidly producing millions of number 8 and 9 oval head rivets for use in harness and saddlery work for the cavalry. Tea chests were another continuous order as well as supplying rivets for vehicle tyre studs, gas masks and soldiers boots. All employees of the company were exempt from military service because of the extreme demand for rivets.

 

....... The Second World War also contributed to the growth of the company, being the major producer of aircraft rivets, working day and night and weekends year in year out. Luckily the factory escaped any damage during the five years of air raids." Unquote

Edited August 11, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

I think you answer came in post 9, a most knowledgable source and around at the time, munitions spring to mind too.

[antarmike]

..... munitions spring to mind too.

As far as I know aluminium was hardly used in wartime munitions. Aluminium powder can be used to make explosives (Torpex was 18% Aluminium powder) but explosive production was in Royal ordnance factories and The ROF did not have a facility any where near Marsworth) and generally any ammunition is made as heavy as possible to create the maximum impact and damage. Cartridge cases are exclusively Brass. Although small arms use light alloys these days this is not true of wartime weapons. During the war Aluminium was always a difficult material to source in the UK and virtually all Aluminium went into aircraft production, including the millions of rivets that held them together.

 

The only use of aluminium in munitions (weapons in general) I can think of apart from Aircraft production was scales on range finders and the like on 25 Pounders and the 5.5" Field gun and the soldiers mess cans and motor bike engines.

 

I'll still go with Round Aluminium bars destined for "Rivets"

 

Edit "I'll concede aluminium foil for window chaff, and add to the use in explosives, Thermite, used in the standard British 4lb incendiary bomb."

Edited August 12, 2012 by antarmike

[Derek R.]

Sounds almost too practical for a 'Ministry decision', but sound conclusion. I remember the entrance to 'rivets' and their long title sign. Harked back to Dickensian almost. Seem to recall a decent coal yard thereabouts too.

[onionbargee]

1940's mess tins were not Aluminium, they were tinned steel.

 

I need to get out more.

[antarmike]

1940's mess tins were not Aluminium, they were tinned steel.

 

I need to get out more.

My dad's one he brought back from the war as aluminium because my mum used to make me scrambled eggs in it and I had to wash it out afterwards ....

 

IWM says initially made of tinned metal (I think they mean steel) but later they were aluminium (picture shows aluminium)

see picture 13 of 14 here "aluminium mess cans"

and on ebay 1941 dated without wired/rolled top edge and rivetted not solderd handle bracket,so therefore aluminium type

and one steel and one aluminium both dated 1945

I need to get out more....

Edited August 12, 2012 by antarmike

[jeannette smith harrison]

Slight off topic

I was told many tales by Grandad, My Father & uncle joe of them carrying good during the war.

App they would be given a destination to load at often @ night or the early hours & the docket would say general goods.

They where never allowed to know what they carried & where told to head for a named place. along the journey they would hear a whistle blow & out of nowhere soldiers & a couple of lorries would appear they would then quickly & quietly unload the lorry take the docket & as quick as they arrived they would be gone.

Dad recalls a couple of times they would have a couple of soldiers looking after the load they would be dressed like a boatman but would hide in the hold.

I know Boatmen where & still are today known to spin a good yarn but these stories where told to me by my

close family who would never lie to me.

Has anyone else heard of this sort of thing happening in the War??

[Tam & Di]

My dad's one he brought back from the war as aluminium because my mum used to make me scrambled eggs in it and I had to wash it out afterwards ....

 

IWM says initially made of tinned metal (I think they mean steel) but later they were aluminium (picture shows aluminium)

see picture 13 of 14 here "aluminium mess cans"

and on ebay 1941 dated without wired/rolled top edge and rivetted not solderd handle bracket,so therefore aluminium type

and one steel and one aluminium both dated 1945

I need to get out more....

 

 

ditto (but I didn't get scrambled eggs I mine - where did you get the eggs? )

Edited August 12, 2012 by Tam & Di

[antarmike]

ditto (but I didn't get scrambled eggs I mine - where did you get the eggs? )

 

I am a 1954 model, egg rationing ended in 1953...

Edited August 12, 2012 by antarmike

[Derek R.]

Egg rationing finished in 1953? Hence your arrival soon after?

 

Maybe that's what you meant. Bit slow off the mark this-morning.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Derek R.

[FadeToScarlet]

My dad's one he brought back from the war as aluminium because my mum used to make me scrambled eggs in it and I had to wash it out afterwards ....

 

IWM says initially made of tinned metal (I think they mean steel) but later they were aluminium (picture shows aluminium)

see picture 13 of 14 here "aluminium mess cans"

and on ebay 1941 dated without wired/rolled top edge and rivetted not solderd handle bracket,so therefore aluminium type

and one steel and one aluminium both dated 1945

I need to get out more....

 

That makes sense - because, I suppose, aluminium would have to be imported, I suppose it was in pretty short supply up until about 1943 or so, when we gained the upper hand in the Battle of the Atlantic.