Generator on offer in B&Q

[RLWP]

Y

There has to be, as you will not doubt aware, some kind of conductive path for current to flow

 

So my advice to you, my worried friend, is always step on an unknown boat with one hand in your pocket and wearing rubber soled shoes (vibram will do)

 

So, as long as I am wearing rubber soled shoes I can go and put my finger onto a 240 live wire without harm! Cool, I'll just go and give that a try...

 

Richard

[Chris Pink]

So, as long as I am wearing rubber soled shoes I can go and put my finger onto a 240 live wire without harm! Cool, I'll just go and give that a try...

 

Richard

 

That is exactly right.

 

The fact that Chris W backs down with his faux French should be proof enough.

 

Have you never seen a bird sat on an overhead electricity cable?

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fod/infodocs/730_11.pdf

 

scroll to item 19

 

and i refer you to item 20

[Greybeard]

That is exactly right.

 

The fact that Chris W backs down with his faux French should be proof enough.

 

Have you never seen a bird sat on an overhead electricity cable?

 

 

 

and i refer you to item 20

 

Would a boat come under the heading of "Class II (double insulated or all-insulated) tools or apparatus"?

 

I ask out of intertest and not being smart.

 

I'll have my 2 young children on board the youngest of who never has shoes or socks on so I'm very interested in this thread.

[blackrose]

and i refer you to item 20

 

But Item 20 refers to a generator being used for one day or less in conjunction with Class II double insulated or all insulated equipment!

 

That clearly is not what was being discussed. (At least I assumed the generator in question was supplying a boat's ring mains or radial to run a variety of appliances on a daily basis?)

 

Sorry, but to to this electrical novice item 19 supports Chris W's argument, and as an exception to the rule item 20 further reinforces it.

Edited April 11, 2008 by blackrose

[smileypete]

Thanks for that Chris.

We read in the manual to use an earth peg into the ground!

How and what should we use on the canal bank to do this?

We have notice people on boats run the generator on the rear deck so how do they earth it on a fiberglass boat?

We have noticed a guy in manchester ccenter who puts a similar cheap generator on the towpath with no sign of an earth peg?

 

You should have some protection via the earth connection in the generator lead.

 

That said an earth rod would give some extra protection, particularly if the earth connection in the generator lead is faulty.

 

Maybe there is someone local who can check the integrity of the generator lead/boat earthing for you.

 

(Cue arguments... )

 

 

Side note to 'experts': if the generator in question had a 'floating earth', why would the user manual recommend connecting the frame to an earth rod???

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited April 11, 2008 by smileypete

[jayjayranger]

when and why would you use a transformer isolator on a steel boat would these be used as your earthing point

[chris w]

That is exactly right.

 

The fact that Chris W backs down with his faux French should be proof enough.

 

Have you never seen a bird sat on an overhead electricity cable?

 

 

 

and i refer you to item 20

 

This further shows your ignorance of matters technical (and French too).

 

1. "Bolleaux" is not "faux" but the french word for "waffle", not as in pancake but as in "piffle" and is indeed the origin of our English word "b*llacks".

 

2. Of course a bird can sit (safely) on an overhead electricity cable. I alluded to this too above. The bird is "floating" at 33,000v and can't feel a thing. However, if the bird stretched out its leg and touched the actual pylon, it would become "finger-licking good" in a few nanaoseconds. The same thing would happen if you were able to reach up and touch it from the ground. The difference in this latter case would be that both you and the bird would make a family-bucket!

 

3. To quote from the Health & Safety Executive document alluded to by Greybeard above, section 19 states (inter alia):

 

"....If a mains voltage supply is not available and an ac generating set is to be used during the construction or repair process particular care is needed to ensure

that it is installed safely:

 

(1) generators need to be earthed, by bonding the neutral to the frame and connecting to earth......" which is exactly what I said above.

 

You state that section 20 is the relevant section. IT IS NOT. Section 20 is only relevant to the use of double-insulated appliances. You should know better than to mislead people like that.

 

 

Chris

 

PS: to answer Greybeard's question about the transformer....... one would use it to isolate the boat from the shore mains earth in order to prevent galvanic corrosion. The input is connected to shore mains. The frame is connected to the SHORE earth. The outputs are floating so in order to prevent this, one of the outputs must be bonded to the hull. This creates a neutral and live. ie: you could touch one output (neutral) and feel nothing, the other side has the potential to kill you.

 

Chris

Edited April 11, 2008 by chris w

[Big Steve]

Bollocks is FRENCH! Bollocks, I'll never use the word again. It ruins that old joke about the gateaux too.

[chris w]

Bollocks is FRENCH! Bollocks, I'll never use the word again. It ruins that old joke about the gateaux too.

 

 

What's the gateaux joke????????????????

[Greybeard]

This further shows your ignorance of matters technical (and French too).

 

1. "Bolleaux" is not "faux" but the french word for "waffle", not as in pancake but as in "piffle" and is indeed the origin of our English word "b*llacks".

 

2. Of course a bird can sit (safely) on an overhead electricity cable. I alluded to this too above. The bird is "floating" at 33,000v and can't feel a thing. However, if the bird stretched out its leg and touched the actual pylon, it would become "finger-licking good" in a few nanaoseconds. The same thing would happen if you were able to reach up and touch it from the ground. The difference in this latter case would be that both you and the bird would make a family-bucket!

 

3. To quote from the Health & Safety Executive document alluded to by Greybeard above, section 19 states (inter alia):

 

"....If a mains voltage supply is not available and an ac generating set is to be used during the construction or repair process particular care is needed to ensure

that it is installed safely:

 

(1) generators need to be earthed, by bonding the neutral to the frame and connecting to earth......" which is exactly what I said above.

 

You state that section 20 is the relevant section. IT IS NOT. Section 20 is only relevant to the use of double-insulated appliances. You should know better than to mislead people like that.

 

 

Chris

 

PS: to answer Greybeard's question about the transformer....... one would use it to isolate the boat from the shore mains earth in order to prevent galvanic corrosion. The input is connected to shore mains. The frame is connected to the SHORE earth. The outputs are floating so in order to prevent this, one of the outputs must be bonded to the hull. This creates a neutral and live. ie: you could touch one output (neutral) and feel nothing, the other side has the potential to kill you.

 

Chris

 

The transformer question was actually Jayjayrangers and not mine BUt I'll willingly take the advice as well.

[Gibbo]

http://smartgauge.co.uk/earthing.html

 

Gibbo

[Chris Pink]

That clearly is not what was being discussed. (At least I assumed the generator in question was supplying a boat's ring mains or radial to run a variety of appliances on a daily basis?)

 

Then you should re-read the original poster's posts, that's exactly what she was discussing. And, to all intents, using a portable generator on the bank falls under item 20 of the HSE document, albeit on a daily basis, and all 240V powered equipment on my boat is double-insulated (you'll go a long way to find new <600W appliances that are not these days).

 

I read item 19 to refer to permanently installed equipment and i couldn't agree more that domestic IEE regulations should be followed for such an installation.

 

1. "Bolleaux" is not "faux" but the french word for "waffle", not as in pancake but as in "piffle" and is indeed the origin of our English word "b*llacks".

Thank you for that, I stand corrected, i am so glad you have said something that makes sense. And yes, it is true, i do tend to waffle. I will employ an editor in future to make concise, terse explanations just to please you.

 

However, if the bird stretched out its leg and touched the actual pylon,

Now this is about as absurd as your bare-footed person bridging boat and bank, you sir, are talking crap.

 

 

To get back to the reply I made to Graham; There are, as evinced by the HSE document, important differences between an installation and the use of portable generators and as such one set of instructions for earthing is misleading. Misleading in the context of 240V electricity == dangerous. To advise people to modify wiring and equipment irresponsible.

 

Whereas washing machines, microwaves and such like are unlikely to be double insulated, equipment run from a 600W generator almost certainly will be. To connect any part of that circuit to the boat's hull is then to create the potential (excuse the pun) for a fault condition which you then have to install safety equipment (RCD) to guard against.

 

I have worked with electricity for outdoor events, dockings and boats for many years and the most common cause of electric shock is a person bridging live and neutral (faulty or damp extension leads and plugs being the most common culprits), a condition that no RCD will protect against.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Chris Pink

[magnetman]

Do people ACTUALLY get electrocuted by unearthed portable generators? Does it HAPPEN? If not then how can it be high risk?

[laural]

Chris W where are you based please?

When all this becomes important we will want to pay someone to check all this over and correct any mistakes and you certainly know your stuff.

Give us a pm please.

Taking this cheap genny back to B&Q as we havnt used it.

Will buy a Honda genny or price an engine with an alternator.

Cheap generators arnt so cheap afer all really considering the risks.

Edited April 12, 2008 by laural

[Chris Pink]

Taking this cheap genny back to B&Q as we havnt used it.

Will buy a Honda genny or price an engine with an alternator.

Cheap generators arnt so cheap afer all really considering the risks.

 

There are no differences in safety issues between the Honda and the B&Q units. Other than those created by build quality.

 

it is true, however, that going for engine/alternator route, ie12V takes you out of the scope of these safety issues.

 

Mind you should hear Chris W on the possibilities of 12V faults.

[Gibbo]

............................ the most common cause of electric shock is a person bridging live and neutral (faulty or damp extension leads and plugs being the most common culprits), a condition that no RCD will protect against.

 

Would you not feel happier changing that to "a condition that an RCD is far from certain to protect against" ?

 

The reason I ask is that there are MANY situations where someone bridging live and neutral (which actually ISN'T the most common cause....) WILL trip the RCD.

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

Whereas washing machines, microwaves and such like are unlikely to be double insulated, equipment run from a 600W generator almost certainly will be.

 

Errrrrrrrrrrr.... how about a multistage charger which will be arguably the most common use of a gennie on board, ie: to charge your batteries!!! They have nice shiny metal cases in order to help dissipate the heat and are definitely NOT double insulated.

 

 

I have worked with electricity for outdoor events, dockings and boats for many years and the most common cause of electric shock is a person bridging live and neutral (faulty or damp extension leads and plugs being the most common culprits), a condition that no RCD will protect against.

 

As Gibbo said, and I agree with him, you're wrong in your assumption anyway, but even if you were correct, that's not a reason NOT to protect against other potential faults from which an RCD would protect you. I cannot believe you are basically suggesting that an RCD is a waste of time because most people die of other causes!! That's plain nuts. I suggest you stop digging as the hole in which you are now standing is already mighty deep.

 

Chris

[carlt]

I'm currently sat on the lifeboat, on a swinging mooring, at least 200' from either bank so I'm not, normally concerned about the earthing issue. Tonight, though, Reed Richards is coming over for a drink.

 

Should I bond to earth, for the evening?

[blackrose]

Then you should re-read the original poster's posts, that's exactly what she was discussing. And, to all intents, using a portable generator on the bank falls under item 20 of the HSE document, albeit on a daily basis, and all 240V powered equipment on my boat is double-insulated (you'll go a long way to find new <600W appliances that are not these days).

 

I read item 19 to refer to permanently installed equipment and i couldn't agree more that domestic IEE regulations should be followed for such an installation.

 

I just read the OP and she's talking about running a generator to power a battery charger. This presumably will be done regularly so cannot fall under item 20 of the HSE document. Also doesn't a permanently installed mains ring and the appliances which are plugged into it constitute permanently installed equipment?

 

I think you may be interpreting the document as you wish to for the sake of your argument.

[chris w]

I'm currently sat on the lifeboat, on a swinging mooring, at least 200' from either bank so I'm not, normally concerned about the earthing issue. Tonight, though, Reed Richards is coming over for a drink.

 

Should I bond to earth, for the evening?

 

Well put it like this, if you had young kids and a fellow boater invited you and the family on to his boat and he told you that he had an unbonded hull, and hence no effective RCD on his mains, would you take the risk with your kids' lives - I know I wouldn't.

 

Chris

[magnetman]

Do people actually get killed in this way? Are children more at risk than adults?

[carlt]

Well put it like this, if you had young kids and a fellow boater invited you and the family on to his boat and he told you that he had an unbonded hull, and hence no effective RCD on his mains, would you take the risk with your kids' lives - I know I wouldn't.

 

Chris

Errr....I don't disagree with you, Chris.

 

I think those that do will never accept your argument, though, and, if a risk assessment was done, the conclusion would be that far too much time is spent arguing this point.

 

Lots of things can kill you and, like I told my mum, when she started fretting that I'd got myself another sea boat....The most dangerous part of a sea passage is the drive to the boat.

 

The most dangerous part of generator ownership is the drive to B&Q, and back.

[blackrose]

Do people ACTUALLY get electrocuted by unearthed portable generators? Does it HAPPEN? If not then how can it be high risk?

 

I don't know the answer to that, but a simple form of risk assessment is to score the likelihood of something happening along with its impact.

 

So on a score of 1-10 (10 being the highest), the likelihood of a steel hull becoming live because it isn't hull-earth bonded (or because a generator wasn't properly earthed) may only get a score of 1. However the impact of that happening could be death so it scores 10. You then multiply the liklihood score by the impact score to give you a risk factor. As I said this is a very simplified method.

[jayjayranger]

would you bond all your earth and batteries neteraul including inverter to one earth stud on a steel boat and on a scale of 1 to 10 how inportant is a isolator transformer would i should i bond a diesal gen to this stud and the domestic fues board earth to this /stud bolt screw/sorry people i am that man nice but dim

[blackrose]

would you bond all your earth and batteries neteraul including inverter to one earth stud on a steel boat and on a scale of 1 to 10 how inportant is a isolator transformer would i should i bond a diesal gen to this stud and the domestic fues board earth to this /stud bolt screw/sorry people i am that man nice but dim

 

My AC and DC are bonded on the same stud but I think the best approach is to use two different studs so I'm going to change it. The reason for this is that should the stud become disconnected from the hull - perhaps due to corrosion, then this might leave the DC negative and the AC earth connected together with no path to earth - a potentially hazardous situation.

 

I'm not sure about earthing the diesel generator, but again, perhaps a separate stud is best? Can someone with more knowledge advise please?

Edited April 12, 2008 by blackrose