Hundreds of small explosives recovered from canal

[Chris Lowe]

 

Thread title is the Beebs attenpt at being sensational.

Not the first time this has happened, looks like the Northampton arm & the Nene were dumping areas for railway detonators.

Has this happened anywhere else?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2lxzl79zo

[David Mack]

A story about the river, illustrated with a picture of the canal...

[Chris Lowe]

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A story about the river, illustrated with a picture of the canal...

Did you expect accuracy from a journalist, probably doesn't even know the difference.

[GUMPY]

A story about fireworks found in water near the Carlsbeg brewery, illustrated with a picture of the Carlsbeg brewery. 🤔

[SLC]

Not the first time nor the last. Some 50 year old detonators were found in 2022 and pulled out of the canal near Far Cotton. Comments on Facebook suggest this has been happening throughout the country for decades.

Point is, magnet fishing is not a good idea.

[magnetman]

Its a terrible idea and directly contravenes byelaws.

I had a box of 49 red 12 bore cartridges out near KIngs Langley about 20 years ago. all live can't remember what I did with them probably gave them way !

 

 

Also had 11 hand grenades and 7 handguns out but they all went back in.

 

(not all at Kings Langley!!)

Oh yes and various parts of a chopped up 12 bore side by side.

[SLC]

It might contravene by laws but like so many laws, it is never enforced. Locally, a CRT volunteer tried to intervene to enforce laws and got attacked for his efforts.

No doubt people will come back here and defend the practice which will simply reinforce the fact that laws these days are ignored because they are unenforceable.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, SLC said:

It might contravene by laws but like so many laws, it is never enforced. Locally, a CRT volunteer tried to intervene to enforce laws and got attacked for his efforts.

No doubt people will come back here and defend the practice which will simply reinforce the fact that laws these days are ignored because they are unenforceable.

Many such laws have *always* been ignored because they were unenforceable. What is your suggestion, that CART should have anti-magnet-fishing police at every lock, who can arrest miscreants and take them to the nearest police station, where they can accidentally fall down the stairs -- just like in the good old days? 😉 

Edited Tuesday at 13:03 by IanD

[Jonny P]

Many laws are passively enforced. The RCR/RCD being an example. There’s little or no direct consequence of contravening them but should that contravention cause loss or damage to someone or something down the line you risk prosecution under that law.

 

A lot of H&S type legislation works in this way. Courts need good evidence on which to secure convictions. Incorrect wiring and nobody getting hurt isn’t good evidence to present to a jury; someone being blown apart in an explosion works much better.

[Chris Lowe]

You could consider railway detonators a health & safety device from the past.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Chris Lowe said:

You could consider railway detonators a health & safety device from the past.

And present!

[Sue68]

found explosives, at Deal, were given the float test off Deal Pier.

[Graham Davis]

4 hours ago, Chris Lowe said:

You could consider railway detonators a health & safety device from the past.

They are still in use. 
All trains still carry a tube of (I think) 12 and we had a small supply in my Signal Box.

[blackrose]

On 15/04/2025 at 08:52, David Mack said:

A story about the river, illustrated with a picture of the canal...

 

Isn't that a picture of the R. Nene?

 

[GUMPY]

Seems like they must read this thread the picture in the article has changed.

It was of the brewery taken from above the bottom lock of the canal, it's now of the river with the brewery on the right.

[Tony Brooks]

14 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

They are still in use. 
All trains still carry a tube of (I think) 12 and we had a small supply in my Signal Box.

 

I understood it was one of the guard's duties, in the event of a train breakdown/derailment/accident, to walk back along the line a specified distance and set detonators on the track. I also think they had duties involving shorting bars of three rail electric railways. Maybe the powers that be think signalling and train to signaler communications are so reliable such measures are no longer needed, but this is why I have never understood how driver only operation can be allowed.

Edited yesterday at 12:10 by Tony Brooks

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Isn't that a picture of the R. Nene?

 

They've changed the picture. When I replied there was the entrance to a narrow lock visible.

[Jonny P]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I understood it was one of the guard's duties, in the event of a train breakdown/derailment/accident, to walk back along the line a specified distance and set detonators on the track. I also think they had duties involving shorting bars of three rail electric railways. Maybe the powers that be think signalling and train to signaler communications are so reliable such measures are no longer needed, but this is why I have never understood how driver only operation can be allowed.

The guard has the responsibility for the overall safety of the train hence that is one of their duties.

 

These days it’s possible to put out a stop call to all trains or to contact any individual train. But that would be the driver because the active equipment would be in the lead cab.

 

I assume in driver only operation the driver would have the responsibility for protecting the train with detonators. In real accidents it may fall to whoever is physically able in any case.

 

The signalling system will still protect the train unless it has derailed foul of another running line.

 

The detonators though also have a role in the rescue of a failed train as the assisting locomotive/train will by necessity have to pass a signal at danger and neither the assisting driver or signaller have precise information on the location of the failed train.

 

In a similar vein protection of engineering possessions is another application of detonators where engineering trains are required to operate under degraded signalling arrangements.

Edited yesterday at 15:29 by Jonny P

[Graham Davis]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I understood it was one of the guard's duties, in the event of a train breakdown/derailment/accident, to walk back along the line a specified distance and set detonators on the track. I also think they had duties involving shorting bars of three rail electric railways. Maybe the powers that be think signalling and train to signaler communications are so reliable such measures are no longer needed, but this is why I have never understood how driver only operation can be allowed.

In the event of a train failure or accident, then either the guard or the driver has to walk 440yds back from the train, and lay 3 dets roughly 10 yards apart. If a rescue unit is expected to approach towards the front of the unit then dets have to be placed likewise. If a rescue unit is going to come from either direction they have to be met at the first det by either the guard or driver. Even if the driver has contacted the signaller they are still required to place dets. Contacting the signaller should always be their first action anyway. If there is a junction prior to the "problem" things get a little more complicated!

Trains also carry a bar that reaches from one rail to the other so that it "shorts out" the track circuitry, which should give a notification to the signaller that there is a problem, although not all areas are track circuited. My Box only had short lengths of track circuits on the approach to a couple of signals protecting the level crossing.

In DOO (Driver Only Oprations) then the driver has to do all the above, which was one of the reasons the Unions were so against it, To be honest, since the introduction of the specific railway moblie network, GSM-R, communiction across the network is very good and there are very few black spots. 

In the 10 years I was signalling I only ever remember dets being placed once whilst I was on duty, and what failures we did have generally managed to keep going far enough so that they could be looped out of the way. I was once taking a trip down the Heart of Wales Line where the unit failed at a remote station and we were picked up by a bus. On the return journey the unit I was one was going to be the "rescue unit" and we set off the dets after meeting the failure driver, and they were bloody loud! No-one ever seems to bother unclipping them off the rails.

[Jonny P]

13 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

In the event of a train failure or accident, then either the guard or the driver has to walk 440yds back from the train, and lay 3 dets roughly 10 yards apart. If a rescue unit is expected to approach towards the front of the unit then dets have to be placed likewise. If a rescue unit is going to come from either direction they have to be met at the first det by either the guard or driver. Even if the driver has contacted the signaller they are still required to place dets. Contacting the signaller should always be their first action anyway. If there is a junction prior to the "problem" things get a little more complicated!

Trains also carry a bar that reaches from one rail to the other so that it "shorts out" the track circuitry, which should give a notification to the signaller that there is a problem, although not all areas are track circuited. My Box only had short lengths of track circuits on the approach to a couple of signals protecting the level crossing.

In DOO (Driver Only Oprations) then the driver has to do all the above, which was one of the reasons the Unions were so against it, To be honest, since the introduction of the specific railway moblie network, GSM-R, communiction across the network is very good and there are very few black spots. 

In the 10 years I was signalling I only ever remember dets being placed once whilst I was on duty, and what failures we did have generally managed to keep going far enough so that they could be looped out of the way. I was once taking a trip down the Heart of Wales Line where the unit failed at a remote station and we were picked up by a bus. On the return journey the unit I was one was going to be the "rescue unit" and we set off the dets after meeting the failure driver, and they were bloody loud! No-one ever seems to bother unclipping them off the rails.

Is it just 440 yards?

 

Trackworkers are taught a mile and a quarter - subject to specific rules for junctions and tunnels if those are encountered first - and I always understood that is because a design requirement of all rolling stock is that the emergency brake can stop the train within that distance (on a level gradient??) from the maximum design operating speed.

 

ETA - 440 yards would be more in keeping with protecting from an approaching assisting unit which should be driving on sight.

Edited yesterday at 15:45 by Jonny P

[Graham Davis]

1 minute ago, Jonny P said:

Is it just 440 yards?

 

Trackworkers are taught a mile and a quarter - subject to specific rules for junctions and tunnels if those are encountered first - and I always understood that is because a design requirement of all rolling stock is that the emergency brake can stop the train within that distance (on a level gradient??) from the maximum design operating speed.

You've got me wondering now about the distance; it is 7 years since I read the Rule Book!
I think you might be right.

[Chris Lowe]

Graham

 

Wiki has this 'Detonators are usually deployed in groups of three, spaced 20 metres apart. When being used on electrified lines detonators must be placed on the rail which is furthest from the conductor rail (aka 'third rail')'

 

Not that you always trust Wiki.

[Jonny P]

Just now, Graham Davis said:

You've got me wondering now about the distance; it is 7 years since I read the Rule Book!
I think you might be right.

See my edit. I read an accident report recently - where an assisting locomotive ran into back of the failed train - that seemed to suggest two sets of detonators were required in that circumstance.

2 minutes ago, Chris Lowe said:

Graham

 

Wiki has this 'Detonators are usually deployed in groups of three, spaced 20 metres apart. When being used on electrified lines detonators must be placed on the rail which is furthest from the conductor rail (aka 'third rail')'

 

Not that you always trust Wiki.

It’s correct.

 

Drivers are required to bring their train to a stand upon exploding one or more detonators.

 

 

 

[Graham Davis]

48 minutes ago, Jonny P said:

See my edit. I read an accident report recently - where an assisting locomotive ran into back of the failed train - that seemed to suggest two sets of detonators were required in that circumstance.

It’s correct.

 

Drivers are required to bring their train to a stand upon exploding one or more detonators.

 

I was thinking about the failed train and assistance situation, since that is what we had to deal with most in the Box.
Laying dets for a Line Block (Engineering) was the PICCOPs job. All we needed to know was that it had been done and the paperwork signed.

[Jonny P]

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

 

I was thinking about the failed train and assistance situation, since that is what we had to deal with most in the Box.
Laying dets for a Line Block (Engineering) was the PICCOPs job. All we needed to know was that it had been done and the paperwork signed.

And logically there is no need to protect a train that’s failed in section other than from an assisting engine/unit. That mile and a quarter scenario is for obstructions such as trees, plant or injured workers blocking the line which is why it’s taught as part of Personal Track Safety.

 

In any case the staff involved would attempt to call the signaller or control by mobile while on their way to place detonators.