Lithium-Ion Batteries, Engine Oil, Electric Winches

[Peugeot 106]

There are three comprehensive articles  in Practical Boat Owner this month no.704 June 2024

 

“Affordable lithium -ion battery system”

 

“Considerations for installing lithium -ion”

 

”Lithium-ion battery myths busted”

 

also 

 

“A blood test for your engine” (engine oil analysis)

 

also 

 

“Evolution of electric winches” ( for yachts!)

 

£4.99 W H Smiths

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

“Affordable lithium -ion battery system”

 

The "hybrid" system often discussed on here presumably? 

 

Or is it worth shelling out £4.99 to learn about some new progress on the subject?!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12 by MtB

[Peugeot 106]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The "hybrid" system often discussed on here presumably? 

 

Or is it actually worth shelling out £4.99 to learn something new on the subject?!

 

 

Sorry Mike my knowledge about batteries is minimal even though I used to sell Glass Mat for separators to battery manufacturers all over the world! One of you clued up guys needs to review the articles but I thought it was worth bringing them to people’s attention as they look like they may be of interest. The articles are a bit more high brow than those normally found in PBO! 

[WulfNut]

Re The affordable solar article. 

Just read it on readly, re solar.  Article is a bit doge.  The bloke basically built his own 280Ah battery importing cells from china, then designed and built his own BMS using relays and fuses rather than buying one for some reason.  There is no balancing circuit for the cells and he has a little rant about balancing not being needed.  He didn't use anything between the alternator and the batteries because he has a 115A alternator that has temperature control built in, he says this alternator gives him about 60A at a good temperature.  He uses a 120W solar panel, and his usage is about 24Ah a day moored.  But he is fine with that because he is only out on it for 10 days moored or 80Ah 3 days sailing before needing to run the engine.  He states that it is best to only use 240Ah or the 280Ah and that his 240Ah is equal to a 480Ah AGM.  Total cost £400.

 

Ok, my thoughts others might disagree.  I would rather buy a pre-built battery from a reputable retailer,  one that had low temperature protection.  If it was a garden shed I would have a go at building one, but this is my boat and that battery is going to last for many years.  Any mistakes I make will also be around for years.  That is just how I feel.

[JungleJames]

6 minutes ago, WulfNut said:

Re The affordable solar article. 

Just read it on readly, re solar.  Article is a bit doge.  The bloke basically built his own 280Ah battery importing cells from china, then designed and built his own BMS using relays and fuses rather than buying one for some reason.  There is no balancing circuit for the cells and he has a little rant about balancing not being needed.  He didn't use anything between the alternator and the batteries because he has a 115A alternator that has temperature control built in, he says this alternator gives him about 60A at a good temperature.  He uses a 120W solar panel, and his usage is about 24Ah a day moored.  But he is fine with that because he is only out on it for 10 days moored or 80Ah 3 days sailing before needing to run the engine.  He states that it is best to only use 240Ah or the 280Ah and that his 240Ah is equal to a 480Ah AGM.  Total cost £400.

 

Ok, my thoughts others might disagree.  I would rather buy a pre-built battery from a reputable retailer,  one that had low temperature protection.  If it was a garden shed I would have a go at building one, but this is my boat and that battery is going to last for many years.  Any mistakes I make will also be around for years.  That is just how I feel.

If it is Lithium Phosphate, then the chances are your reputable seller has utilised an unknown chinese factory to put together the exact same cells as this guy has. The only difference? They will have their unknown chinese factory put a branded shiny case around said cells.

 

Also, at least one of your reputable sellers (Fogstar) will also sell you the same basic cells for you to put together yourself.

 

I'd be more worried about the home made BMS and lack of alternator controller

[WulfNut]

9 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

If it is Lithium Phosphate, then the chances are your reputable seller has utilised an unknown chinese factory to put together the exact same cells as this guy has. The only difference? They will have their unknown chinese factory put a branded shiny case around said cells.

 

Also, at least one of your reputable sellers (Fogstar) will also sell you the same basic cells for you to put together yourself.

 

I'd be more worried about the home made BMS and lack of alternator controller

Fogstar is a good example of the difference between sourcing batteries from China and a reputable dealer.  Fogstar itself started because back in the day there were a lot of fake 18650 batteries floating about and all sorts of shenanigans. People like Fogstar and Torchy became quite good detectives at spotting fakes. The owner of Fogstar decided to try and source directly, and so you got genuine new batteries.  15 yrs ago we would take the wrapping off 18650s and it was obvious Chinese sellers were stripping them out of laptops and re-wrapping them with new nipples.  Some of the amp hour ratings on them were a complete joke, they would have had to have been the size of a cola can with the same weight to manage some of the figures they pretended to be.  EVE cells, which Fogstar sells, are also heavily copied.  As an example EVE LF304 were recently spotted on Chinese websites with octogen and hex terminals, but original ones of this model only have round terminals.  So there is nothing wrong with building your own battery, but you need to do a hell of a lot of research before buying the cells from China like the guy in the article did. 

 

I would also add, the best thing about Fogstar is there BMS is exactly what we need on boats, with internal heating meaning they can still take on charge below 0c. 

[JungleJames]

Oh, you of course have to be wary. 

But if you have enough knowledge (and I assume this guy does if he produced some sort of BMS) then it is possible to source everything yourself, including better BMS to that which Fogstar etc use, for a lesser price than a completed battery would cost.

 

The changes are you are purchasing the cells from the same supplier as Fogstar and co use anyway.

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

4 hours ago, JungleJames said:

Oh, you of course have to be wary. 

But if you have enough knowledge (and I assume this guy does if he produced some sort of BMS) then it is possible to source everything yourself, including better BMS to that which Fogstar etc use, for a lesser price than a completed battery would cost.

 

The changes are you are purchasing the cells from the same supplier as Fogstar and co use anyway.

 

 

A crazy amount of shenanigans goes on in and around Chinese factories and between there and the UK. Even if the cells came from the same supplier, they could be rejects, sold out of the back door, or lower grade cells, rebadged to look like the full fat ones. For work, I've seen all sorts of dodgy stuff going on with fake electronic components, where some one has rebadged reject, or low grade items to look like expensive, or hard to get items and fed them in to the supply system. Have seen entire batches of electrolytic capacitors explode dramatically on a test rig, due to them being wired backwards inside the case. Others have had old master art forger levels of care taken over faking the documentation and packaging.

I'd only be reasonably happy with Lithium batteries from a supplier who has a long term interest in their reputation and can keep an eagle eye on the entire supply chain for the cells they are supplying. I know I'm not in a position to do that myself. Wouldn't want to take too many chances on something so expensive and critical to the boat.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, WulfNut said:

He didn't use anything between the alternator and the batteries because he has a 115A alternator that has temperature control built in,

 

Thanks and very interesting. I've never seen an alternator with "temperature control built in" on a narrowboat engine. Did he happen to mention the make and model of alternator he has? 

 

Did he mention how his alternator is protected when his home-brewed BMS disconnects? This strikes me as the most difficult thing to achieve without using a LA battery.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

Did he mention how his alternator is protected when his home-brewed BMS disconnects? This strikes me as the most difficult thing to achieve without using a LA battery.

 

Only difficult if one is not willing and able to break into the rotor circuit so that can be turned off. It won't damage the alternator because basically that is what the regulator does many times a second when it is regulating. This does not address any volt drop you may introduce in the rotor circuit, but the regulator should compensate for that.

[MtB]

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Only difficult if one is not willing and able to break into the rotor circuit so that can be turned off. It won't damage the alternator because basically that is what the regulator does many times a second when it is regulating. This does not address any volt drop you may introduce in the rotor circuit, but the regulator should compensate for that.

 

So did he actually do it, one still wonders.

 

Presumably yes he did, given (I think) the article says the whole installation cost less than £400 including the cells and the home-brew BMS. Odd not to mention it though. 

 

Unless he did, as I haven't read the article yet! 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

So did he actually do it, one still wonders.

 

Presumably yes he did, given (I think) the article says the whole installation cost less than £400 including the cells and the home-brew BMS. Odd not to mention it though. 

 

Unless he did, as I haven't read the article yet! 

 

 

 

I don't know what he did, and the whole costing makes it seem unlikely for a reliable system. I was trying to point out that it is not much more difficult to safely shut an alternator down without damage than it is to fit an advanced regulator.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't know what he did, and the whole costing makes it seem unlikely for a reliable system. I was trying to point out that it is not much more difficult to safely shut an alternator down without damage than it is to fit an advanced regulator.

 

So how does one actually do that at the BMS end, I find myself wondering. Once the alternator had had its surgery and two wires are hanging out of it.

 

Given a cheap commercially available BMS simply disconnects the battery from the charging current when any one cell voltage gets up to the emergency cut-off threshold.

 

However, the article says the chap designed his own BMS out of relays and fuses. Without having seen the article, I fear it is improbable that he has any individual cell voltage monitoring controlling rotor circuit interruption. 

[BEngo]

Without seeing the detail, the BMS could be doing anything that can be cooked up with some relays and fuses. 

However, if, say, the BMS were to cut off charge before the cells get into the upper knee,  there would be no benefit to individual cell monitoring  as it is only up the knee that cell differences hve a big effect.  It would   lose usable capacity but avoid balancing.

 

N

[MtB]

Must be more to it than "relays and fuses" for it to have any meaningful voltage monitoring at all, I'd have thought. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

Must be more to it than "relays and fuses" for it to have any meaningful voltage monitoring at all, I'd have thought. 

 

 

 

I agree.  At the least, it will need a voltage divider and a Zener diode to operate the shut charging down relay.

 

39 minutes ago, MtB said:

So how does one actually do that at the BMS end, I find myself wondering. Once the alternator had had its surgery and two wires are hanging out of it.

 

The BMS would have to be configured to supply a feed to open a relay in the rotor circuit. Or something discreet, driven by the above small circuit, to open a rely on those two wires.

 

I have no doubt the circuit would need more than a fixed resistor, a variable resistor and the zener, so it did not keep turning on and off.

Edited May 13 by Tony Brooks

[JungleJames]

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A crazy amount of shenanigans goes on in and around Chinese factories and between there and the UK. Even if the cells came from the same supplier, they could be rejects, sold out of the back door, or lower grade cells, rebadged to look like the full fat ones. For work, I've seen all sorts of dodgy stuff going on with fake electronic components, where some one has rebadged reject, or low grade items to look like expensive, or hard to get items and fed them in to the supply system. Have seen entire batches of electrolytic capacitors explode dramatically on a test rig, due to them being wired backwards inside the case. Others have had old master art forger levels of care taken over faking the documentation and packaging.

I'd only be reasonably happy with Lithium batteries from a supplier who has a long term interest in their reputation and can keep an eagle eye on the entire supply chain for the cells they are supplying. I know I'm not in a position to do that myself. Wouldn't want to take too many chances on something so expensive and critical to the boat.

Ta. Considering I've been saying the same myself, it is of course not lost on me that I'm getting taught it again!!

 

Certainly if I was to do the same, I'd likely purchase the cells using Fogstar as a middle man. 

 

I should of course have said 'he is buying exactly the same cells as a reputable battery supplier. Albeit using said supplier as a middle man'. 

But I don't know how he purchased his cells.

 

 

[WulfNut]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

Did he happen to mention the make and model of alternator he has?

It was a Mitsubishi on a Volvo D2-40.  He says that because the alternator is connected to the starter battery using a charge splitter the alternator is protected.  In regards to BMS and stuff... overcurrent protection is provided by an existing ANL fuse rather than an expensive quicker T class fuse.  He notes that if it was a parallel system it would need the T class.  Chose low cost bistable relays to control the current rather than FETs as he claims the old school tech is better here.

The next article written by someone else, "considerations for installing lithium-ion"  This other bloke basically starts by saying he does not agree with almost all of this.  He says he does not agree with his reasoning on using relays instead of FETs, he then goes on to talk about hybrid just strapped together in parallel are naughty according to ISO and America. and later talks about using a B2B charger.  He talks about the need to have a higher amp BMS than your expected load.  He says using multiple lithium batteries in parallel can cause problems with going out of balance, and recommends that although this is the case two batteries are the most logical should one BMS go boobs up.  He mentions that you can not just use a voltage sensitive relay on a standard alternator.   My thoughts...  this bloke is a lot more where I am.  Also when you think about it, most "off grid DIY lithium" builds fire can obviously be dangerous but more often an inconvenience.  On a narrowboat it can kill but will almost certainly ruin your day, but out at sea like these guys do with their boats a fire can kill you just by leaving you stranded in the wet salty stuff. 

By the way, if anyone has never read PBO, it is worth a read now and again.  I used to buy it in my GRP days.  It is very much a DIY magazine like the old practical mechanics used to be, but for plastic boats.  Although there is a lot of narrow boat magazines now, we have nothing that compares to PBO.  For instance in their 100 tips issue.. tip 1, buy a boat you can afford right now and do not take out a loan as even if it is a complete project you will learn a lot doing it up.  I don't think we will ever see that in narrowboat mags that seem more intent on showing us how the other half live.

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, WulfNut said:

It was a Mitsubishi on a Volvo D2-40.  He says that because the alternator is connected to the starter battery using a charge splitter the alternator is protected.  In regards to BMS and stuff... overcurrent protection is provided by an existing ANL fuse rather than an expensive quicker T class fuse.  He notes that if it was a parallel system it would need the T class.  Chose low cost bistable relays to control the current rather than FETs as he claims the old school tech is better here.

The next article written by someone else, "considerations for installing lithium-ion"  This other bloke basically starts by saying he does not agree with almost all of this.  He says he does not agree with his reasoning on using relays instead of FETs, he then goes on to talk about hybrid just strapped together in parallel are naughty according to ISO and America. and later talks about using a B2B charger.  He talks about the need to have a higher amp BMS than your expected load.  He says using multiple lithium batteries in parallel can cause problems with going out of balance, and recommends that although this is the case two batteries are the most logical should one BMS go boobs up.  He mentions that you can not just use a voltage sensitive relay on a standard alternator.   My thoughts...  this bloke is a lot more where I am.  Also when you think about it, most "off grid DIY lithium" builds fire can obviously be dangerous but more often an inconvenience.  On a narrowboat it can kill but will almost certainly ruin your day, but out at sea like these guys do with their boats a fire can kill you just by leaving you stranded in the wet salty stuff. 

By the way, if anyone has never read PBO, it is worth a read now and again.  I used to buy it in my GRP days.  It is very much a DIY magazine like the old practical mechanics used to be, but for plastic boats.  Although there is a lot of narrow boat magazines now, we have nothing that compares to PBO.  For instance in their 100 tips issue.. tip 1, buy a boat you can afford right now and do not take out a loan as even if it is a complete project you will learn a lot doing it up.  I don't think we will ever see that in narrowboat mags that seem more intent on showing us how the other half live.

I can read most Narrowboat mags in less than 15 mins so I rarely buy one. There is rarely anything of interest to me. I have sailed yachts and dinghies all my life including building over 10 dinghies, canoes etc and as a diy’er PBO has always held my interest and I often purchase it. Some of the articles are pretty “in depth”. Now I have a narrowboat there is often a lot of useful common ground. I still regret lithium battery technology leaves me feeling a total thicko so it’s a good job I don’t need to get involved

[WulfNut]

The last article "Lithium-ion battery myths busted" Is actually a primer for stuff you should know if you are considering lithium.  It educates the reader that they are not just a drop in replacement and that although prices have halved in the last 5 years the other stuff you have to add to make them charge in a way you would want in a boat inflates the cost considerably.  One of the things the article mentions is the old keep your batteries between 80% and 20% advice.  The writer suggests that if a battery is being used regularly ( live aboard people take note ) then there is no harm in the battery being charged to almost 100%.  Similarly they don't mind sitting at a very low state of charge over night waiting for the sun to rise.  The article talks about how alternators are rated at a Amp rating that they can only perform at for a very short time, and they are designed to operate at well under half of that rating for longer periods.  My thoughts, I think this article is a good primer, and if anyone is thinking of fitting lithium themselves they should at least understand the concepts of everything in this article.  My only gripe is that the only suggestion for the alternator problem was an expensive smart regulator or smart alternator.  I think there are other cheaper solutions, a dc-dc charger less than half of an alternators rating tied to an old buffer battery with maybe some sort of temperature sensor and alarm maybe?   All in all this is 16 pages of info, I think it is worth the read (readly)

 

The "blood test for your engine"  is basically a £65 engine oil test.  This is more value for boats that do not do enough hours of engine running to reach an oil change every year.  The idea being you can have a good analysis of your oil quality and you engine via a £65 test.  I shall not review the winch article as I know nothing about them. 

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, WulfNut said:

The "blood test for your engine"  is basically a £65 engine oil test.  This is more value for boats that do not do enough hours of engine running to reach an oil change every year.  The idea being you can have a good analysis of your oil quality and you engine via a £65 test.  I shall not review the winch article as I know nothing about them. 

 

As the oil for most canal bast would cost less than £65 then why pay for a test. Also, a boater can get a fair idea about their oil quality by doing a crackle test for water contamination and the dropping some oil onto blotting paper or a coffee filter and inspecting the rings that form. Without experience, the blotting paper test should be done from an oil change at regular intervals so the boater can see how it alters.

 

That test may economic sense for the traditional engines with a huge sump/oil tank capacity.

Edited May 13 by Tony Brooks

[WulfNut]

3 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I still regret lithium battery technology leaves me feeling a total thicko so it’s a good job I don’t need to get involved

Well just in case you were wondering what the BMS we are all talking about.  They are basically a little computer that sites inside the batteries case, so you don't really ever get to see it.  It looks for faults and turns the battery off if something goes wrong.  It monitors the (usually) 4 cells making sure they are all fine voltage wise, they can have temperature sensors too because you should not charge one under 0c or if it is too hot,  they monitor the load in amps going in and out making sure you don't try to over work it, and they can turn on heaters if your battery has them built in ( most don't they are not really needed but useful on a narrowboat.)  Often you can communicate with the battery using an app on your phone to see what it is doing.  In reality we should try our hardest not to trigger any of the BMS triggers as they are just safety features we should use as a last resort, so for instance you should use a proper charger rather than use the BMS to tell you when the voltage has gone too high.  Some BMS are not great and have nothing but voltage triggers, others are amazing and can do all sorts of things. 

[sueanddaren]

21 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Sorry Mike my knowledge about batteries is minimal even though I used to sell Glass Mat for separators to battery manufacturers all over the world! One of you clued up guys needs to review the articles but I thought it was worth bringing them to people’s attention as they look like they may be of interest. The articles are a bit more high brow than those normally found in PBO! 

If that was Hollingsworth and Vose we probably met many times ( ex Chloride/Hawker/Enersys)

 

Daren

 

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, sueanddaren said:

If that was Hollingsworth and Vose we probably met many times ( ex Chloride/Hawker/Enersys)

 

Daren

 

TFP! Chloride wasn’t a customer of mine though I used to visit some 30 years ago

[cheesegas]

21 hours ago, WulfNut said:

My only gripe is that the only suggestion for the alternator problem was an expensive smart regulator or smart alternator.  I think there are other cheaper solutions, a dc-dc charger less than half of an alternators rating tied to an old buffer battery with maybe some sort of temperature sensor and alarm maybe?  

DC-DC chargers are an ok solution but not great. They're inefficient, and don't make the most of the alternator's available output; a regulator will monitor the temperature and reduce the field current as needed, rather than just applying a constant limit to it. Smart alternators aren't a thing for boats - the term has carried across from cars, where the ECU tells the alternator's regulator what voltage/current to aim for to vary the output. Smart is a vague word which I'm not a fan of - there's currently three external alternator regulators aimed at marine use with lithiums on the market. I don't count Balmar in this as their regulators are not suited for lithiums unless it's a 618 paired with an SG200 shunt, which few people have and it can't be connected to anything else.

 

It does all depend on the usage though - an off grid liveaboard will want to charge their batteries as fast as possible in winter, so a proper alternator regulator is better; the engine bay will also be cooler, so you can make the most of the alternator's capabilities without limiting the current to an absolute worst case scenario hot engine bay in summer. 

 

However, a leisure boater or marina-based liveaboard with shore power might only cruise in summer, in which case their solar might do the bulk of the charging and the engine just needs to put a little power into the house bank, so the inefficiency of a DC-DC doesn't really matter as 30-40a is plenty.