Hydraulic drive for John Deere JD3

[Augustamay60]

Has anyone got any experience of hydraulic drives? I need one for my John Deere JD3 due to alignment issues and not wanting to go down the route of prop shafts and universal joints.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated? 

[Tonka]

Just now, Augustamay60 said:

Has anyone got any experience of hydraulic drives? I need one for my John Deere JD3 due to alignment issues and not wanting to go down the route of prop shafts and universal joints.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated? 

@ditchcrawler has one on a BD3 which was the Beta model before JD3

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Tonka said:

@ditchcrawler has one on a BD3 which was the Beta model before JD3

Sure have Voac motor and pump sized to give approximately 2:1 drive ratio, also hydraulic bow thruster.

[Augustamay60]

I assume you would by that as a kit with the tank, pump motor and direction control valve. Has it always been reliable ? 

[agg221]

We have a hydraulic drive on a Kelvin J2. It was installed in around 2003 and is the original assembly. We have owned it for 3yrs and so far no particular issues. The system was supplied complete by ARS who are still in business and I have found to be both knowledgeable and helpful. There is a definite sound from the motor but not excessive. Two points that spring to mind. Firstly, ours is a swash plate (variable displacement) type which is an excellent option if more expensive. It gives you infinitely variable control on the pump pressure which means that the system does not have to be perfectly matched at all points - just set end stops for maximum forward and reverse pressure. Secondly, the pump and motor on ours are way oversized for the engine - this does not cause any problem but according to ARS means we should have a very long lifetime out of it. We changed the oil and filter this winter for the first time - checking the filter for bits of metal (none found) and checking the rubber hoses for signs of bulging are all that is needed by way of routine maintenance - and were pleasantly surprised at how cheap the oil is. We switched from 32 to 46 oil on the recommendation of ARS and it has given us slightly better power transfer on long runs at high speed. Another advantage, having an engine in an engine room forward of the back cabin, is full floor to ceiling height throughout.

 

Overall, I'm not sure that I would buy a system if I didn't need to, but I do rather like having it there.

 

Alec

[Augustamay60]

This is great information thank you very much. I am really going to have to go down the hydraulic route unless I cut all my engine beds out and change them as my old lister used to have a dropper reduction on the gearbox. I have sent a email to ARS and am waiting for a response, so we shall see. 

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, Augustamay60 said:

This is great information thank you very much. I am really going to have to go down the hydraulic route unless I cut all my engine beds out and change them as my old lister used to have a dropper reduction on the gearbox. I have sent a email to ARS and am waiting for a response, so we shall see. 

ARS is not the same company it was when I did mine, They were based about 15 miles from me in Norfolk but sold out and retired. Mine has been in use since 2002. ARS supplied the motor, the pump came from a refuse lorry. Mine is fixed ratio not adjustable that suites me. On big up side is when you get a log of wood in the prop the relief valve just lifts, no damage. I use speed wheel engine control and push /pull gear change. The main reason for the installation was full height in the back cabin. 

[Augustamay60]

I assume that any hydraulic pump that works at the same pressure as the motor and can take the RPM would work it doesn’t need to be a specific one for a boat ? 

[agg221]

13 minutes ago, Augustamay60 said:

I assume that any hydraulic pump that works at the same pressure as the motor and can take the RPM would work it doesn’t need to be a specific one for a boat ? 

Correct. A constant displacement type such as ditchcrawler has needs to be reasonably matched to the power of the engine whereas a variable displacement type does not. The pump on ours would stall the engine at full displacement - it is rated for 60hp and we only have a 22hp engine.

 

RPM can be a problem with vintage engines but I don't think you will have an issue there.

 

In case it isn't clear - protection by the relief valve is true of pretty much all types and designs of hydraulic system.

 

We also have rod and wheel control - I will at some point make that wheel and wheel as it will be easier to take advantage of the variable pump setting and is correct for a Kelvin.

 

Alec

[john.k]

Interesting question............a bent axis ,or variable reversing axial piston pump or motor will cost up to $10,000 from the likes of Sunstrand Daikin,Rexroth ,or Linde .........from what I can see the same unit from China will cost in the 100s ..........you can triple that after freight and taxes ,but its still in the hundreds........anyone for a Chinese system?..................Im looking into a hydraulic drive mulcher/mower  to fit on my new excavator and it may be any kind of drive that transmits the power ......gear ,vane,roller stator ,bent axis ,variable axial piston ,or whatever .

No need for a hole in the hull with hydrostatic drive ............the unit can be configured to be a heavy outboard style ,and include a hydraulic lift to clear the prop above water.............I made a number of these in the 1980s for work barges ............the hydraulics in those days were good ole Joe Lucas .........back in the day before KGB operatives in the unions destroyed the company.

[koukouvagia]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

 One big up side is when you get a log of wood in the prop the relief valve just lifts, no damage.

Not always the case.  I’ve had an ARS variable drive for over 25 years, giving excellent service.  In all that time it the relief valve only once failed to operate;  the resultant damage cost over £1500 to repair.

An ARS trained engineer came to check the system but couldn’t find any reason for the failure. 

[john.k]

Thats the catch with hydrostatic drives ............you need a fully equipped test facility to isolate whats gone wrong................the other catch is if a component fails and contaminates the oil with metal ,the whole system is wrecked .

[koukouvagia]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

Thats the catch with hydrostatic drives ............you need a fully equipped test facility to isolate whats gone wrong.

That's precisely what the engineer had. He still couldn't explain the relief valve failure.  Needless to say it worked perfectly when he tested it!

The tests showed that after more than twenty years' use, the hydraulic pressure was exactly as it was when new.

 

 

 

Some of the test equipment.

 

[Mike Adams]

I have a hydraulic drive with voac/parker pumps/motors and it works very well however I imagine to buy such a system now would be very expensive although you can pick up the pumps on ebay quite cheap if you are prepared to wait. They are very efficient and as you have said allows the engine to be placed anywhere. Mine is under the front deck so you can hardly hear the engine when boating. Why don't you use a PRM drop box. An oversize one such as a PRM601 would probably give you about the right drop. Cutting the beds about with an angle grinder isn't that difficult and even if you can't weld you could get someone in to do this.

[Augustamay60]

I have considered cutting the beds out and lowering the engine as I am a certified welder but there are a few issues such as the engine would need to be lifted out again and it means removing the roof to do so. I have down some pricing and there is not much between the systems by the time I have purchased a drive plate, gearbox and aqua drive plus the cost of removing the engine and time welding beds in. It’s Parker hydraulics that I have been looking at they seem the best for the money. 

[Mike Adams]

I made up a lifting frame inside the boat out of scaffold tube and key clamps so you can lift the engine clear and its always useful if you need to change the engine mounts etc. What is on the back of the JD now? They are SAE flywheels/housing. I had to make up my own drive plate. JD did marinise their own engines but tick over is about 800rpm and Beta tried to run them slower but that caused problems so you might be going too fast in a narrowboat at tickover with a JD3 so a variable swash plate motor may be better than a fixed bent axis one to give you better control at low speed.

[Augustamay60]

Currently it just has an exposed flywheel there are a series of bolts that I plan on making an end plate to bolt the hydraulic drive too. I can get a drive plate made to any spline so I will just need to take measurements off the spline on the pump, all sound simple but very rarely is. 
I have had to make several alternations to the engine to try and get it to work in a boat as beta did. 

[ditchcrawler]

Saw this today on the Peak Forest canal done by Stow Hill a few years back originally called Anne

 

 

[matty40s]

59 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Saw this today on the Peak Forest canal done by Stow Hill a few years back originally called Anne

 

 

Originally paired with William, the butty was a real butty then, only when separated, the drive was added.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Originally paired with William, the butty was a real butty then, only when separated, the drive was added.

Remember them well, always seemed a strange combination as the butty looked like a motor with a butty stern

[john.k]

Catch with outside of  hull hydrostatic drives is a burst hose can land you in loads of hot water .......i built some of these 40 years ago ,and even then a big oil slick would land you in trouble if anyone ratted you out to the H&M ......no EPA in those days.

[john.k]

Also.......be very aware of the danger of any hydraulic leak ,and the danger of hydraulic fluid penetrating the skin and tissue,causing extensive damage,and even death.