Arco Zeus regulator - first impressions and a look inside

[cheesegas]

So my Zeus arrived a few days ago via a distributor, and whilst it'll be a while until I can hook it up to the alternator, here's a first look. I powered it up on 12v first to make sure it all fires up! As a background, this is now one of three external alternator regulators with system integration on the market, but it's squarely aimed at competing with the Wakespeed especially as the marketing makes a big deal about it coming with the wiring looms! The user interface also promises to be much better as it's purely Bluetooth and an app, rather than Putty or uploading text files like with the Wakespeed.

 

Forum uploader seems to be rotating all the pictures at random no matter what I do to them and their metadata so please try and ignore that...

 

Opening the box, it's packaged very nicely in a large single wall cardboard box - regulator on top in high density foam, looms under it in their own boxes. There's no paper manual in there but there's a QR code which takes you to the manual and the app. 

 

 

The case is a nicely finished extruded aluminium affair, with all connectors on one end cap and the large Bluetooth antenna on the other. The antenna is a standard plastic folding thing with an SMA connector. The Zeus has an IP67 rating, but this SMA connector is only IP67 when mated so you'll need to leave it attached, just in case you're concerned about it getting in the way after configuring it. The antenna is an IP67 version with a silicone ring inside.

 

Connectors on the bottom are mostly good news - the battery harness is a TE Connectivity Ampseal which is internally sealed, and the alternator harness is also a TE Connectivity product. Both are sealed well and are of very high quality.

 

However...the CANbus RJ45 is a Kinsun which, like most connectors of this type, is only IP68 when mated with the appropriate connector. If you plug a standard RJ45 into this, it's prone to let in moisture and corrode itself eventually, I work on LED display modules outdoors and this is common with RJ45s! You need the matching mating part of the connector which is not provided in the box; Kinsun part number 3351L and I could not find a UK stockist for it. Additionally, this type of connector needs to be put on the cable before the RJ45 end is crimped on. Seems like an oversight, making an IP67 rated device but making it difficult to maintain the rating when connected up! It would have been nice to see something like a Neutrik Ethercon here, which is available all around the world, or to simply put in the box the other half of the Kinsun. 

 

Internally, all of the connectors are properly sealed including the screwholes, and the RJ45 is internally potted to ensure no water can get through. Both end caps have substantial rubber seals, and the screws go into pre-tapped threads rather than being self tappers. There's also a dab of silicone on the back of the antenna's SMA connector to seal that.

 

Before getting into the electronics side of it and staying with the mechanical/waterproofing theme - the PCB is a heavily made multi layer board with a full groundplane, which is used for a heatsink. Everything is populated on the top, the bottom is bare. However, it does not have a conformal coating which is odd for a product aimed at the marine market. The five electrolytics are good Japanese quality, rated at 105 degrees C and have tall 15mm cans. I would have liked to see a splooge of epoxy under them though, as they're vulnerable to vibration damage, especially as it'll be mounted close to the engine. The only mechanical attachment is via the through-hole solder joints; fine for something like a computer motherboard but not great for this application. 

 

Getting onto the electronics, I could not find an FPGA or system-on-chip microcontroller on here at all, which is very very odd! I can only think that it's fully encapsulated under the Bluetooth module, but there are only few traces going to it on the back of the board. It may be a 3 or more layer board though.

 

Going from left to right we have:

MCP2510 CANbus controller. This has an SPI interface, so whatever microcontroller is used will likely have SPI natively

MCP2551 CAN transceiver. This will sit between the 2510 and the connector to form a complete solution. There is NMEA2k as well as CANBUS but only one transceiver, so there's some duplexing happening here.

Fanstel BT840e 2.4ghz Bluetooth module. The antenna is also a Fanstel product designed to work with this module, an ANT060. It's a complete integrated RF solution with SPI and I2C; I expect the microcontroller will use SPI as the I2C pins don't appear to be connected

Under the blue/white cable is 4 generic ICs which don't appear to have datasheets, I expect they are analog to digital converters.

SUM70040E MOSFET, rated at 120A drain current. Very over-spec'd. Nice! Unsure what the single one is for, the two at the top right will be for controlling the alternator field in positive and negative configuration.

MP9486A 1A DC-DC buck converter controller. 4.5v-100v input range and 170uA quiescent current, the Zeus should have a very low standby draw. This is probably used to derive 3.3v or 5v for the internal ICs from the 12v-48v input from the battery.

LTC7001 MOSFET driver and two more SUM70040E MOSFETs, purpose mentioned earlier.

 

Overall, I think this is a very well made product with good attention paid to waterproofing, the only exception being the RJ45 port. As of now, it's impossible to get the mating part of the connector in the UK easily, so it will be a weak point. However, due to the well-designed connector, it will not allow moisture into the unit. A conformal coating would have been nice, and I wonder why it was not done. There's a lot of test points on the board so it may be to speed up quality control, as the coating makes it impossible to use the test points unless they're masked.

 

If it's going in the engine bay, I'd treat it as IP62 when mounted with the ports facing down as water will collect in both the RJ45 socket and plug if there's a cable in it. Best to get it high up away from spray, or perhaps make a little shield for the RJ45.

 

Mechanically it's generally good with all the ports fixed to the case rather than just the PCB, but some epoxy goo under the inductor and electrolytics wouldn't go amiss. RJ45 aside, the connectors are very high spec and unlikely to ever cause any trouble, and all the looms are made extremely well. 

 

In the box, a laminated paper wiring diagram showing what colour wires go where would have been a good idea as it's difficult to keep on referring to your phone/laptop in the engine bay, but the PDF manual is excellent and has the wiring colours on two pages which is easy to print out as a reference. 

 

 

 

[dmr]

Thanks, thats very useful info. Glad you conclude that its well made as I ordered one first thing this morning.

 

I have downloaded the pdf installation manual and its mostly good but I do have a number of technical questions so I will be testing out the technical support quite soon. A forum of some sort would be nice, or at least a facebook page where info can be shared.

 

I was going to start my own thread here but I propose that we share this one?

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

So my Zeus arrived a few days ago via a distributor, and whilst it'll be a while until I can hook it up to the alternator, here's a first look. I powered it up on 12v first to make sure it all fires up! As a background, this is now one of three external alternator regulators with system integration on the market, but it's squarely aimed at competing with the Wakespeed especially as the marketing makes a big deal about it coming with the wiring looms! The user interface also promises to be much better as it's purely Bluetooth and an app, rather than Putty or uploading text files like with the Wakespeed.

 

Forum uploader seems to be rotating all the pictures at random no matter what I do to them and their metadata so please try and ignore that...

 

Opening the box, it's packaged very nicely in a large single wall cardboard box - regulator on top in high density foam, looms under it in their own boxes. There's no paper manual in there but there's a QR code which takes you to the manual and the app. 

 

 

The case is a nicely finished extruded aluminium affair, with all connectors on one end cap and the large Bluetooth antenna on the other. The antenna is a standard plastic folding thing with an SMA connector. The Zeus has an IP67 rating, but this SMA connector is only IP67 when mated so you'll need to leave it attached, just in case you're concerned about it getting in the way after configuring it. The antenna is an IP67 version with a silicone ring inside.

 

Connectors on the bottom are mostly good news - the battery harness is a TE Connectivity Ampseal which is internally sealed, and the alternator harness is also a TE Connectivity product. Both are sealed well and are of very high quality.

 

However...the CANbus RJ45 is a Kinsun which, like most connectors of this type, is only IP68 when mated with the appropriate connector. If you plug a standard RJ45 into this, it's prone to let in moisture and corrode itself eventually, I work on LED display modules outdoors and this is common with RJ45s! You need the matching mating part of the connector which is not provided in the box; Kinsun part number 3351L and I could not find a UK stockist for it. Additionally, this type of connector needs to be put on the cable before the RJ45 end is crimped on. Seems like an oversight, making an IP67 rated device but making it difficult to maintain the rating when connected up! It would have been nice to see something like a Neutrik Ethercon here, which is available all around the world, or to simply put in the box the other half of the Kinsun. 

 

Internally, all of the connectors are properly sealed including the screwholes, and the RJ45 is internally potted to ensure no water can get through. Both end caps have substantial rubber seals, and the screws go into pre-tapped threads rather than being self tappers. There's also a dab of silicone on the back of the antenna's SMA connector to seal that.

 

Before getting into the electronics side of it and staying with the mechanical/waterproofing theme - the PCB is a heavily made multi layer board with a full groundplane, which is used for a heatsink. Everything is populated on the top, the bottom is bare. However, it does not have a conformal coating which is odd for a product aimed at the marine market. The five electrolytics are good Japanese quality, rated at 105 degrees C and have tall 15mm cans. I would have liked to see a splooge of epoxy under them though, as they're vulnerable to vibration damage, especially as it'll be mounted close to the engine. The only mechanical attachment is via the through-hole solder joints; fine for something like a computer motherboard but not great for this application. 

 

Getting onto the electronics, I could not find an FPGA or system-on-chip microcontroller on here at all, which is very very odd! I can only think that it's fully encapsulated under the Bluetooth module, but there are only few traces going to it on the back of the board. It may be a 3 or more layer board though.

 

Going from left to right we have:

MCP2510 CANbus controller. This has an SPI interface, so whatever microcontroller is used will likely have SPI natively

MCP2551 CAN transceiver. This will sit between the 2510 and the connector to form a complete solution. There is NMEA2k as well as CANBUS but only one transceiver, so there's some duplexing happening here.

Fanstel BT840e 2.4ghz Bluetooth module. The antenna is also a Fanstel product designed to work with this module, an ANT060. It's a complete integrated RF solution with SPI and I2C; I expect the microcontroller will use SPI as the I2C pins don't appear to be connected

Under the blue/white cable is 4 generic ICs which don't appear to have datasheets, I expect they are analog to digital converters.

SUM70040E MOSFET, rated at 120A drain current. Very over-spec'd. Nice! Unsure what the single one is for, the two at the top right will be for controlling the alternator field in positive and negative configuration.

MP9486A 1A DC-DC buck converter controller. 4.5v-100v input range and 170uA quiescent current, the Zeus should have a very low standby draw. This is probably used to derive 3.3v or 5v for the internal ICs from the 12v-48v input from the battery.

LTC7001 MOSFET driver and two more SUM70040E MOSFETs, purpose mentioned earlier.

 

Overall, I think this is a very well made product with good attention paid to waterproofing, the only exception being the RJ45 port. As of now, it's impossible to get the mating part of the connector in the UK easily, so it will be a weak point. However, due to the well-designed connector, it will not allow moisture into the unit. A conformal coating would have been nice, and I wonder why it was not done. There's a lot of test points on the board so it may be to speed up quality control, as the coating makes it impossible to use the test points unless they're masked.

 

If it's going in the engine bay, I'd treat it as IP62 when mounted with the ports facing down as water will collect in both the RJ45 socket and plug if there's a cable in it. Best to get it high up away from spray, or perhaps make a little shield for the RJ45.

 

Mechanically it's generally good with all the ports fixed to the case rather than just the PCB, but some epoxy goo under the inductor and electrolytics wouldn't go amiss. RJ45 aside, the connectors are very high spec and unlikely to ever cause any trouble, and all the looms are made extremely well. 

 

In the box, a laminated paper wiring diagram showing what colour wires go where would have been a good idea as it's difficult to keep on referring to your phone/laptop in the engine bay, but the PDF manual is excellent and has the wiring colours on two pages which is easy to print out as a reference. 

 

 

 

Thanks for that, very interesting. Fascinating to see how others have done it but to be honest I’m fairly surprised that they have made it so complicated. Why not just use an off the shelf alternator controller chip and a micro controller with built in CAN controller. No need for lumping great electrolytics. And why have they used through-hole resistors, no-one does that any more! The board does look sparsely populated but perhaps they needed a fairly big board for MOSFET heat dissipation.

 

To be fair their design does work with + and - controlled alternators but OTOH if you are going to do surgery on the alternator to cut out the regulator, it’s not really much more effort to reconnect one of the brushes to negative and thus only need a positive regulator.

 

Obviously weather protection is your thing but IMO for a typical narrowboat installation I don’t think significantly waterproofed case is necessary. Even in a cruiser stern installation, provided you keep it away from drips etc I think it is only dampness that needs to be protected against and so the lack of a conformal coating does seem very surprising.

 

Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it.

Edited February 19 by nicknorman

[Rincewind]

Nice teardown, thanks for that.  Proof of the pudding though is in the eating!  Hope you can update us 

[dmr]

33 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks for that, very interesting. Fascinating to see how others have done it but to be honest I’m fairly surprised that they have made it so complicated. Why not just use an off the shelf alternator controller chip and a micro controller with built in CAN controller. No need for lumping great electrolytics. And why have they used through-hole resistors, no-one does that any more! The board does look sparsely populated but perhaps they needed a fairly big board for MOSFET heat dissipation.

 

To be fair their design does work with + and - controlled alternators but OTOH if you are going to do surgery on the alternator to cut out the regulator, it’s not really much more effort to reconnect one of the brushes to negative and thus only need a positive regulator.

 

Obviously weather protection is your thing but IMO for a typical narrowboat installation I don’t think significantly waterproofed case is necessary. Even in a cruiser stern installation, provided you keep it away from drips etc I think it is only dampness that needs to be protected against and so the lack of a conformal coating does seem very surprising.

 

Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it.

 

I'm still not convinced about needing an alternator control chip, I reckon Adverc did it with just a transistor and an op amp and it worked ok. Not sure about the op-amp as they shave the numbers off. Plus, most alternator regulators are just a few trannies anyway (oops, musn't say that anym more).

 

The Zeus was developed at breakneck speed so maybe it was decided to stick with a micro-controller that they knew and accept the slight overhead of an external CAN controller?  

I can't see the through hole resistors are you sure?

 

I agree that supporting only P type alternators would make sense, but it might cost a few sales for people doing a quick Adverc upgrade?

I think P type are standard in USA but N are more common in europe?

I intend to stick with the N arrangement but disable the internal regulator. This should keep the ignition light working.....or do I need to think harder about this?

 

==============================================

 

I note that the Zeus needs fuses in its power supply lines, and the field if its N, but not in the battery positive sense, or alternator (positive) shunt if fitted.

This suggests that the fuses are there to protect the Zeus itself rather than the cables, and this forum always says fuses are to protect cables?

 

Should the wire to the alternator W be fused ? 😀

Edited February 19 by dmr
because the forum has merged two posts

[nicknorman]

17 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I'm still not convinced about needing an alternator control chip, I reckon Adverc did it with just a transistor and an op amp and it worked ok. Not sure about the op-amp as they shave the numbers off. Plus, most alternator regulators are just a few trannies anyway (oops, musn't say that anym more).

 

The Zeus was developed at breakneck speed so maybe it was decided to stick with a micro-controller that they knew and accept the slight overhead of an external CAN controller?  

I can't see the through hole resistors are you sure?

 

I agree that supporting only P type alternators would make sense, but it might cost a few sales for people doing a quick Adverc upgrade?

I think P type are standard in USA but N are more common in europe?

I intend to stick with the N arrangement but disable the internal regulator. This should keep the ignition light working.....or do I need to think harder about this?

 

==============================================

 

I note that the Zeus needs fuses in its power supply lines, and the field if its N, but not in the battery positive sense, or alternator (positive) shunt if fitted.

This suggests that the fuses are there to protect the Zeus itself rather than the cables, and this forum always says fuses are to protect cables?

 

Should the wire to the alternator W be fused ? 😀

Ah yes you are right about the resistors. I blame the slightly blurry pic!

 

An alternator reg chip gives you:

Speed input (from the W) to allow reduced field current at low rpm and to avoid wasting field current when the engine is not running (and indeed to allow the thing to be permanently powered up but sleeping. Think 6 diode machine).

Just processing the W input with its wide range of voltages is a bit of a deal.

It gives you field current measurement, voltage measurement, ability to specify a field current limit, control over field current ramp rates/ soft start, adjustable regulated voltage, the actual control MOSFET and its driver circuitry.

 

Most of which you can’t get with just a mosfet and an opamp!

 

And all for under a tenner even in small quantities. I just don’t understand why you would go to the time and expense of reinventing all that.

 

 

[cheesegas]

46 minutes ago, dmr said:

Thanks, thats very useful info. Glad you conclude that its well made as I ordered one first thing this morning.

 

I have downloaded the pdf installation manual and its mostly good but I do have a number of technical questions so I will be testing out the technical support quite soon. A forum of some sort would be nice, or at least a facebook page where info can be shared.

 

I was going to start my own thread here but I propose that we share this one?

Yep, let's make this the Zeus thread! Looking forward to hearing your findings on it too.

 

 

30 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Thanks for that, very interesting. Fascinating to see how others have done it but to be honest I’m fairly surprised that they have made it so complicated. Why not just use an off the shelf alternator controller chip and a micro controller with built in CAN controller. No need for lumping great electrolytics. And why have they used through-hole resistors, no-one does that any more! The board does look sparsely populated but perhaps they needed a fairly big board for MOSFET heat dissipation.

 

To be fair their design does work with + and - controlled alternators but OTOH if you are going to do surgery on the alternator to cut out the regulator, it’s not really much more effort to reconnect one of the brushes to negative and thus only need a positive regulator.

 

Obviously weather protection is your thing but IMO for a typical narrowboat installation I don’t think significantly waterproofed case is necessary. Even in a cruiser stern installation, provided you keep it away from drips etc I think it is only dampness that needs to be protected against and so the lack of a conformal coating does seem very surprising.

I'm still confused as to why I can't find the IC, although it's almost certainly an off the shelf microcontroller rather than an FPGA. Maybe to make reverse engineering more difficult? As far as I know, only ARM based controllers have built in CAN so maybe they made it discrete to bring down costs. There's no through hole resistors, the only things are the through hole electrolytics. They're part of the MOSFET driver circuit rather than the CAN. 

 

Arco do make/distribute/rebadge their own line of alternators too, but oddly I couldn't find any already set up for external regulation like Balmar sell, all internal reg. Maybe the whole idea is to make the Zeus as universal as possible? Even the Iskra external brush packs sold by Beta have both brush wires brought out so it can be set up for either pos or neg regulation.

 

The weatherproofing is important I think as this is an American product, in the land of no narrowboats! The engine bay of a cruiser can be a wet place, engine hatches not sealing fully, splashing from bilge water etc. I intend to fit this under the cruiser stern and unfortunately it'll get wet whenever the boards are lifted after it rains. I'd have expected better for the RJ45, it's a totally non ruggedised connector otherwise; even the manual says to install with the connectors down despite the IP67 rating. Standard non-ruggedised RJ45s don't last long even just in a moist environment.

 

 

1 minute ago, dmr said:

I'm still not convinced about needing an alternator control chip, I reckon Adverc did it with just a transistor and an op amp and it worked ok. Not sure about the op-amp as they shave the numbers off. Plus, most alternator regulators are just a few trannies anyway (oops, musn't say that anym more).

For lithium you definitely need an alternator control chip as it needs to drop the voltage to float once the battery is full - that data needs to come from somewhere and be parsed etc, or you'd end up fitting its own shunt. Which, by the way, is one of the ways you can fit the Arco.

 

Temperature control is also a thing with lithium - the current needs to be reduced if the alternator is getting too hot. Given that engine space temperatures vary a lot depending on the type of boat and time of year, the current can't just be set at a fixed value if you want to get the most out the alternator. And the final thing, which is what the Zeus will solve for me, is that at idle speeds, my 90a alternator and Balmar combo will load the engine so much it pulls the RPMs down so far the engine runs very rough and enters a horrible resonance. This is an issue when trying to pass boats at tickover or when going through locks/mooring. I have a crude workaround in the form of a switch on the dash which shorts the temp sensor which causes the Balmar to halve the field current, I flick it when in locks or mooring up. The Zeus- and many other regulators - allows you to set an RPM curve to reduce the output current at lower revs.

 

The Adverc is a much simpler, much cruder thing designed for lead batteries; all it does is raise the field current every 10 minutes (I think!) with a 50% duty cycle, until the voltage gets to 14.4v. On most narrowboats with modern alternators it's completely useless as the alternator's internal regulator will aim for 14.4v anyway and increasing the field current won't make a difference as the rotor is in saturation. It is however useful if the cable run from alternator to batteries is long/too thin/just crap, as it will eliminate any voltage drop by ensuring the batteries get 14.4v at the terminals.

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Ah yes you are right about the resistors. I blame the slightly blurry pic!

 

An alternator reg chip gives you:

Speed input (from the W) to allow reduced field current at low rpm and to avoid wasting field current when the engine is not running (and indeed to allow the thing to be permanently powered up but sleeping. Think 6 diode machine).

Just processing the W input with its wide range of voltages is a bit of a deal.

It gives you field current measurement, voltage measurement, ability to specify a field current limit, control over field current ramp rates/ soft start, adjustable regulated voltage, the actual control MOSFET and its driver circuitry.

 

Most of which you can’t get with just a mosfet and an opamp!

 

And all for under a tenner even in small quantities. I just don’t understand why you would go to the time and expense of reinventing all that.

 

 

 

But you were doing a one-off. Isn't it a bit like writing software? Its good (but time consuming) to do as much low level stuff in house as you can, if you are too dependant on third part technology and that chip goes obsolete at the worse possible moment then you are in a spot of bother??

 

But I confess I am probably a bit out of date in my approach and get too bogged down in detail. Most software these days looks to be just an evenings worth of glue code to link up various off the shelf sub-components.

5 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Yep, let's make this the Zeus thread! Looking forward to hearing your findings on it too.

 

 

I'm still confused as to why I can't find the IC, although it's almost certainly an off the shelf microcontroller rather than an FPGA. Maybe to make reverse engineering more difficult? As far as I know, only ARM based controllers have built in CAN so maybe they made it discrete to bring down costs. There's no through hole resistors, the only things are the through hole electrolytics. They're part of the MOSFET driver circuit rather than the CAN. 

 

Arco do make/distribute/rebadge their own line of alternators too, but oddly I couldn't find any already set up for external regulation like Balmar sell, all internal reg. Maybe the whole idea is to make the Zeus as universal as possible? Even the Iskra external brush packs sold by Beta have both brush wires brought out so it can be set up for either pos or neg regulation.

 

The weatherproofing is important I think as this is an American product, in the land of no narrowboats! The engine bay of a cruiser can be a wet place, engine hatches not sealing fully, splashing from bilge water etc. I intend to fit this under the cruiser stern and unfortunately it'll get wet whenever the boards are lifted after it rains. I'd have expected better for the RJ45, it's a totally non ruggedised connector otherwise; even the manual says to install with the connectors down despite the IP67 rating. Standard non-ruggedised RJ45s don't last long even just in a moist environment.

 

 

For lithium you definitely need an alternator control chip as it needs to drop the voltage to float once the battery is full - that data needs to come from somewhere and be parsed etc, or you'd end up fitting its own shunt. Which, by the way, is one of the ways you can fit the Arco.

 

Temperature control is also a thing with lithium - the current needs to be reduced if the alternator is getting too hot. Given that engine space temperatures vary a lot depending on the type of boat and time of year, the current can't just be set at a fixed value if you want to get the most out the alternator. And the final thing, which is what the Zeus will solve for me, is that at idle speeds, my 90a alternator and Balmar combo will load the engine so much it pulls the RPMs down so far the engine runs very rough and enters a horrible resonance. This is an issue when trying to pass boats at tickover or when going through locks/mooring. I have a crude workaround in the form of a switch on the dash which shorts the temp sensor which causes the Balmar to halve the field current, I flick it when in locks or mooring up. The Zeus- and many other regulators - allows you to set an RPM curve to reduce the output current at lower revs.

 

The Adverc is a much simpler, much cruder thing designed for lead batteries; all it does is raise the field current every 10 minutes (I think!) with a 50% duty cycle, until the voltage gets to 14.4v. On most narrowboats with modern alternators it's completely useless as the alternator's internal regulator will aim for 14.4v anyway and increasing the field current won't make a difference as the rotor is in saturation. It is however useful if the cable run from alternator to batteries is long/too thin/just crap, as it will eliminate any voltage drop by ensuring the batteries get 14.4v at the terminals.

 

The Adverc works for me as the alternator regulates at 14.4 and the Adverc cycles it up to the 14.8 that the Trojans need. Its sad that the Adverc did not evoilve into something like the Zeus but they wanted nothing to do with micro=controllers and embedded software.

 

The Adverc cycling is interesting and can be a right pain but I suspect it actually solves a few problems by accident.

 

We might be at cross-purposes with Nicks post. We are not discussing what the alternator controller (Zeus) does but how much of that is implemented in micro-controller software and associated hardware, and how much is done within a dedicated "automotive" IC linked to the micro-controller.

[blackrose]

So the Zeus must be the next generation of high tech alternator controller? What does it do that older external controllers don't and what's the function of the Bluetooth connectivity? Do you look at your phone to check voltage and amps on a Zeus app while you're going down the canal or is it just for displaying historical data? Or is there some other function? Sorry I'm not familiar with these devices. 

[nicknorman]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

So the Zeus must be the next generation of high tech alternator controller? What does it do that older external controllers don't and what's the function of the Bluetooth connectivity? Do you look at your phone to check voltage and amps on a Zeus app while you're going down the canal or is it just for displaying historical data? Or is there some other function? Sorry I'm not familiar with these devices. 

It is primarily relevant to lithium batteries. You need something “smart” to avoid mechanical overloading at low rpm, to avoid overheating the alternator and to go to float when the battery is full to avoid overcharging it.

The primary benefit of the Bluetooth link is for configuring the settings using the Zeus App.

[blackrose]

Ah I see, thanks. Yes so it's basically doing several things to configure the alternator to make it suitable for lithium batteries, rather than doing what "conventional" external alternator regulators attempt to do - increase the voltage and get more charge into LA batteries.

Edited February 20 by blackrose

[cheesegas]

4 hours ago, blackrose said:

So the Zeus must be the next generation of high tech alternator controller? What does it do that older external controllers don't and what's the function of the Bluetooth connectivity? Do you look at your phone to check voltage and amps on a Zeus app while you're going down the canal or is it just for displaying historical data? Or is there some other function? Sorry I'm not familiar with these devices. 

The Bluetooth is just for configuration, there's no need to use the app once it's all set up. The only other direct competitor on the market, the Wakespeed, is configured by using a piece of extremely old software to send it text commands which is fiddly and very easy to get wrong. I expect the 'next generation' is marketing speak for saying it's easier to configure. 

 

Older external controllers like the Sterling and Adverc are designed for lead batteries and lack features like the ability to switch to float voltage, reducing load at low RPM and integrating with a CANbus system like a Victron Cerbo to dynamically reduce charge current to avoid damaging the batteries or management system by charging too quickly.

[nicknorman]

9 hours ago, cheesegas said:

Yep, let's make this the Zeus thread! Looking forward to hearing your findings on it too.

 

 

I'm still confused as to why I can't find the IC, although it's almost certainly an off the shelf microcontroller rather than an FPGA. Maybe to make reverse engineering more difficult? As far as I know, only ARM based controllers have built in CAN so maybe they made it discrete to bring down costs. There's no through hole resistors, the only things are the through hole electrolytics. They're part of the MOSFET driver circuit rather than the CAN. 

 

Arco do make/distribute/rebadge their own line of alternators too, but oddly I couldn't find any already set up for external regulation like Balmar sell, all internal reg. Maybe the whole idea is to make the Zeus as universal as possible? Even the Iskra external brush packs sold by Beta have both brush wires brought out so it can be set up for either pos or neg regulation.

 

The weatherproofing is important I think as this is an American product, in the land of no narrowboats! The engine bay of a cruiser can be a wet place, engine hatches not sealing fully, splashing from bilge water etc. I intend to fit this under the cruiser stern and unfortunately it'll get wet whenever the boards are lifted after it rains. I'd have expected better for the RJ45, it's a totally non ruggedised connector otherwise; even the manual says to install with the connectors down despite the IP67 rating. Standard non-ruggedised RJ45s don't last long even just in a moist environment.

 

 

I used a PIC 18F26K83 which has built in CAN as well as a load of other peripherals. Cost a couple of quid. It’s only an 8 bit micro but perfectly adequate for the job.

 

I agree about the RJ45. I used them myself but the controller is in the engine room so it’s warm and dry. Yes certainly weatherproofing is important for their target market but my point was that less than perfect weatherproofing isn’t much of a negative point for most canal boat applications - what is needed is tolerance of high relative humidity.

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Ah I see, thanks. Yes so it's basically doing several things to configure the alternator to make it suitable for lithium batteries, rather than doing what "conventional" external alternator regulators attempt to do - increase the voltage and get more charge into LA batteries.

Yes.

9 hours ago, dmr said:

 

But you were doing a one-off. Isn't it a bit like writing software? Its good (but time consuming) to do as much low level stuff in house as you can, if you are too dependant on third part technology and that chip goes obsolete at the worse possible moment then you are in a spot of bother??

 

Certainly component obsolescence is a constant worry, but it applies to just about anything fancier than a resistor! The chip I used is obsolete now, but there are other new ones. One would just have to change the driver software to adapt to a different device, 95% of the product would be unaffected.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, cheesegas said:

Older external controllers like the Sterling and Adverc are designed for lead batteries and lack features like the ability to switch to float voltage, reducing load at low RPM and integrating with a CANbus system like a Victron Cerbo to dynamically reduce charge current to avoid damaging the batteries or management system by charging too quickly.

 

Were they to be used in conjunction with lithium batteries you mean? Older controllers don't need those features when charging LA batteries.

Edited February 20 by blackrose

[cheesegas]

19 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Were they to be used in conjunction with lithium batteries you mean? Older controllers don't need those features when charging LA batteries.

Yep, apologies, missed out that bit! Those features are designed for lithium batteries.

[nicknorman]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

 

… if you are too dependant on third part technology and that chip goes obsolete at the worse possible moment then you are in a spot of bother??

 

You made me look! The device I used was NXP. It is obsolete. But the first other device I found was Infineon. Same package, same pin out, same principles, same LIN interface standards. Seems to be an industry standard sort of device.

Detail differences in LIN device address and control registers scaling, so only some very minor changes associated with the LIN interface needed to utilise the new device. ST do one very similar  same pinout. That is how you make a smart alternator regulator for £50 (component cost).
I suppose the only concern might be that when ICE vehicles finally cease to exist, so will a need for ECU controlled alternator controllers. But I’ll probably be dead by then!

Edited February 20 by nicknorman

[dmr]

I reckon the micro-controller must be hidden under the bluetooth module. There are a lot of tracks heading that way and as the Bluetooth likely only needs power and a serial bus connection then there is a lot else going on.

I wonder why they choose to do it this way? must be a concious decision to hide their choice of controller?

 

On the subject of water-protection of the CAN RJ45, I have very little knowledge of these things, but if there is a mating connector cap that is not easy to get then we need to suggest to Arco that they should include one with the Zeus, especially those shipped to Europe.

[PeterF]

3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

The Bluetooth is just for configuration, there's no need to use the app once it's all set up. The only other direct competitor on the market, the Wakespeed, is configured by using a piece of extremely old software to send it text commands which is fiddly and very easy to get wrong. I expect the 'next generation' is marketing speak for saying it's easier to configure. 

I suppose this is true if you have an iphone without USB-C connectivity. I have an Android phone and find the Wakespeed very easy to program from their app. The only downside is the task of removing the cover and using the USB cable. However, if they had a Bluetooth add on I would certainly fit it. Should install mine this spring, if I did not already have it I would probably have gone with the Zeus.

[Chris Miller]

I would say the BT840E mezzanine board is providing the bluetooth RF and microcontroller functions. It has an ARM cortex M4 processor that is available for general usage and there are SPI and GPIO interfaces available for off board comms.

 

The purpose of these advanced regulators is to provide correct charging control for lithium batteries. The crux of the problem is a lithium battery will cause a standard alternator to overheat as the battery will draw as much current as possible. The alternator field is controlled to reduce the charge current as the alternator temperature approaches a maximum setpoint value. Secondly it is also important that an 'Allow to charge' signal is accepted so a battery BMS can disable charging sources in the event the battery parameters are out of range. This is to avoid the BMS disconnecting the battery while the alternator is charging the battery, thus causing damage to the alternator.

 

There are work arounds that may work to some degree, but will result in slower charging and risk standard alternators overheating is some situations. One popular option is to retain a lead acid battery and use a DC-DC charger to charge a house lithium bank. This is a cheaper solution, but does have the drawback that the charge speed is limited to the rating of the DC-DC converter. The rating of this has be less that the alternator rating, but choosing what this factor should be is difficult. Too high and it will work is some situations, but over heat the alternator in others.

 

[dmr]

21 minutes ago, Chris Miller said:

I would say the BT840E mezzanine board is providing the bluetooth RF and microcontroller functions. It has an ARM cortex M4 processor that is available for general usage and there are SPI and GPIO interfaces available for off board comms.

 

The purpose of these advanced regulators is to provide correct charging control for lithium batteries. The crux of the problem is a lithium battery will cause a standard alternator to overheat as the battery will draw as much current as possible. The alternator field is controlled to reduce the charge current as the alternator temperature approaches a maximum setpoint value. Secondly it is also important that an 'Allow to charge' signal is accepted so a battery BMS can disable charging sources in the event the battery parameters are out of range. This is to avoid the BMS disconnecting the battery while the alternator is charging the battery, thus causing damage to the alternator.

 

There are work arounds that may work to some degree, but will result in slower charging and risk standard alternators overheating is some situations. One popular option is to retain a lead acid battery and use a DC-DC charger to charge a house lithium bank. This is a cheaper solution, but does have the drawback that the charge speed is limited to the rating of the DC-DC converter. The rating of this has be less that the alternator rating, but choosing what this factor should be is difficult. Too high and it will work is some situations, but over heat the alternator in others.

 

Have just had a quick look at the BT840 specs, you may well be correct that this is also providing the brains.

The Allow to Charge looks to me to be the neatest way to easily implement a safe lithium installation, but do any common lithium batteries support this? I find no mention of it even with the more advanced batteries that support CANbus.

[BEngo]

The common Daly,  JK, JBD/Overkill/xiaoxiang BMS  units all expose the state of  the charge FETs over their coms units-  UART, RS485, BT and App, CANBUS are all available, albeit not fitted to or exposed on all batteries. I haven't run across SPI or I2C, yet.

  All these  BMS'  will accept an incoming command to open and close the charge FET.  There are others ( e.g. ANT-BMS ) I have not investigated

 

The hardest part seem to be in parsing the control  messages from the BMS to extract the necessary decision data (pack voltage, cell voltages, balance delta , charge current from the serial string of hex bytes that the BMS transmits in reply to an incoming hex byte string.  Hard wired connections seem easier to manage than BT ones.

 

A look round the home automation and diy solar sites will produce a bewildering quantity of information and there is plenty of C, C++ and Python code lurking.

 

N

 

 

[Chris Miller]

Drop in batteries with internal an BMS generally do not.

Batteries that use external an BMS generally do, for example victron does. Have a look at this example wiring diagram: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/3-Phase-VE-Bus-BMS-system-4-pin-with-3xQuattro-and-4x200Ah-24V-Li.pdf

The CYRIX Li CHARGE 230 has a signal from the external BMS called 'BSM charge disconnect'. This, as the name says disconnects the charging circuits when the BMS demands this. Connect this to the alternator regulator so that the alternator is disabled a few seconds before a disconnect.

 

The only feasable way I can think of to allow drop in batteries to be charge directly from an alternator would be a parallel hybrid lead acid / lithium. Effectivly the lead acid sits floating as the lithium battery voltage is slightly higher than the lead acid, but in the event of a disconect the leadacid is still connected to provide a load for the alternator. An external regulator is still required for the alternator though as this setup won't guard agains the alternator overheating. The only real advantage of this is allowing cheaper drop in lithium batteries to be used and not have the additonal wiring an external BMS requires.

[cheesegas]

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The common Daly,  JK, JBD/Overkill/xiaoxiang BMS  units all expose the state of  the charge FETs over their coms units-  UART, RS485, BT and App, CANBUS are all available, albeit not fitted to or exposed on all batteries. I haven't run across SPI or I2C, yet.

  All these  BMS'  will accept an incoming command to open and close the charge FET.  There are others ( e.g. ANT-BMS ) I have not investigated

Whilst it's indeed possible to control the charge/discharge FETs externally, this is the reverse of how other BMSs work. For example, RECbms/Pylontech will take control of all charge sources and tell them when to start and stop charging rather than being told to switch on and off. The contactor/FET in these BMSs is a last resort, which is how it should be in my opinion.

 

However, having an external battery gauge such as the Victron BMV along with a JBD BMS is a good interim solution though; setting the BMVs relay to close at 100% becomes the command to stop charging, and opening it at 95% or whatever is the allow to charge. This will however result in short cycling if it's being charged with a heavy load on the battery which is less than the current the charger can supply

6 minutes ago, Chris Miller said:

Drop in batteries with internal an BMS generally do not.

Batteries that use external an BMS generally do, for example victron does.

I largely agree with this, but there are more and more drop ins appearing on the market with CANbus. Renogy's newest offering is fully Victron compatible for example, and there's a few more coming to market, can't remember the brands offhand though!

 

There are of course Pylontechs etc which have an internal BMS and will speak to a Cerbo happily to take control over charge sources, but they are designed for domestic installations and I would not recommend using them on a boat for a few reasons.

[Chris Miller]

Do you have any more details which Renogy batteries support this? I've just had a look but only came up with the their new Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery. These have an RS485 port that allows daisy chaining batteries together plugging in a display.

[dmr]

I feel that UARTs and RS485 etc etc are of little use to the average user (or even me and I know what they are 😀). CANbus is probably the best as it is slowly becoming a boat standard but is not available on most batteries.  A very simple "alow to charge" signal (a relay drive type thing) from the batteries that could be progammed (via bluetooth) to switch at 90% or whatever (well before the internal disconnect) would be a very useful solution for those who don't want a full CANbus or VEbus system.

 

Zeus and some Victron DC-DC converters etc are able to respond to a simple allow to charge signal.