Arco Zeus regulator - first impressions and a look inside

[BEngo]

10 hours ago, nicknorman said:

These modules are about £3 from China, and for that you get the BLE interface plus enough spare processor power to run an alternator controller. Remind me how the Zeus can cost £800+!?

I know you know this, but...

 

First off there are the design costs.  American, so probably high. 

 

Then All the tests and certifications that are required by the  myriad regulatory bodies involved,  from UL to the EU the long way round,  and again, some of these are American, some even Californian, so will want their collective backsides well and expensively wallpapered. 

 

Then, and only then do you get to components,  assembly and production testing. ( Probably Chinese so needing on site QC and QA plus someone to make sure that only the ordered number get made.) 

 

Add something for the cost of borrowing the development money.

 

Finally add in enough profit that the first batch will cover the development and certification costs and any second batch will pay for the Mk2 version.

 

N

[nicknorman]

10 minutes ago, BEngo said:

I know you know this, but...

 

First off there are the design costs.  American, so probably high. 

 

Then All the tests and certifications that are required by the  myriad regulatory bodies involved,  from UL to the EU the long way round,  and again, some of these are American, some even Californian, so will want their collective backsides well and expensively wallpapered. 

 

Then, and only then do you get to components,  assembly and production testing. ( Probably Chinese so needing on site QC and QA plus someone to make sure that only the ordered number get made.) 

 

Add something for the cost of borrowing the development money.

 

Finally add in enough profit that the first batch will cover the development and certification costs and any second batch will pay for the Mk2 version.

 

N

 

And then there is the “we should charge as much as the market will stand”. They will have looked at the pricing of the wakespeed and Balmar offerings.

 

Edited February 24 by nicknorman

[IanD]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

And then there is the “we should charge as much as the market will stand”. They will have looked at the pricing of the wakespeed and Balmar offerings.

 

 

So are you suggesting that Balmar and Wakespeed don't also have all the costs (and profits) referred to above?

 

All companies charge the price for their product that people -- the market -- is willing to pay, because -- duh, that's how business works... 🙂

 

If you don't like that (which of course also provides a living for their employees...) then you can always buy your own components and design/build your own -- which I know you have done. It's much cheaper because component cost in any electronic product is a small fraction of the selling price. At least, it's cheaper if you don't see your own time as having any value, in other words you're doing it for fun -- and as a hobby -- but you can hardly expect commercial suppliers to work like this, can you?

 

I've built my own gear in many different areas over the years either because I wanted to or nobody sold *exactly* what I wanted or -- as a student -- I couldn't afford to buy ready-made. But I was never under any illusion that it would have saved money if I valued my time and effort at any realistic value, even minimum wage...

[BEngo]

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

So are you suggesting that Balmar and Wakespeed don't also have all the costs (and profits) referred to above?

Wakespeed didn't.  It was an open source project: " crowd coded" if you like.  All the stuff is still out there if you want to build one.

 

N

[IanD]

1 minute ago, BEngo said:

Wakespeed didn't.  It was an open source project: " crowd coded" if you like.  All the stuff is still out there if you want to build one.

 

N

 

At least the design part was almost free, but once it became a commercial product manufactured and sold by Wakespeed (and now Dragonfly who bought them out) they still have all the manufacture/testing/certification/salaries/profits issues that any company has -- and they sold it at a premium price for a premium product, which is often paired up with expensive alternators and batteries so why should they sell it cheap?

 

Complaining about the price because you can build one cheaper yourself is like sitting down in a restaurant and complaining loudly that you could buy the ingredients for a fraction of the price -- which is of course true, so go home and cook it yourself instead of moaning. Or pay the restaurant price and realise that most of this is not paying for ingredients but costs, overheads and salaries which you don't have at home...

[dmr]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Complaining about the price because you can build one cheaper yourself is like sitting down in a restaurant and complaining loudly that you could buy the ingredients for a fraction of the price -- which is of course true, so go home and cook it yourself instead of moaning. Or pay the restaurant price and realise that most of this is not paying for ingredients but costs, overheads and salaries which you don't have at home...

 

A "friend of a friend" never went to the pub because it was much cheaper to stay at home and drink his homebrew (all by himself).

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

So are you suggesting that Balmar and Wakespeed don't also have all the costs (and profits) referred to above?

 

All companies charge the price for their product that people -- the market -- is willing to pay, because -- duh, that's how business works... 🙂

 

If you don't like that (which of course also provides a living for their employees...) then you can always buy your own components and design/build your own -- which I know you have done. It's much cheaper because component cost in any electronic product is a small fraction of the selling price. At least, it's cheaper if you don't see your own time as having any value, in other words you're doing it for fun -- and as a hobby -- but you can hardly expect commercial suppliers to work like this, can you?

 

I've built my own gear in many different areas over the years either because I wanted to or nobody sold *exactly* what I wanted or -- as a student -- I couldn't afford to buy ready-made. But I was never under any illusion that it would have saved money if I valued my time and effort at any realistic value, even minimum wage...

My comment was a statement of fact, not a complaint. A 4 paragraph rant from you is not going to alter my statement of fact.

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

My comment was a statement of fact, not a complaint. A 4 paragraph rant from you is not going to alter my statement of fact.

It's a theme of yours though, repeatedly banging the drum about companies daring to sell stuff for a lot more than the cost of the components or what you can make it for or think it's "worth", as if this is some great conspiracy.

 

I'm sure it would be much cheaper to buy the steel and weld a narrowboat hull up yourself, but most people realise that the raw material isn't why hulls cost what they do... 😉

Edited February 24 by IanD

[nicknorman]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's a theme of yours though, repeatedly banging the drum about companies daring to sell stuff for a lot more than the cost of the components or what you can make it for or think it's "worth", as if this is some great conspiracy.

 

I'm sure it would be much cheaper to buy the steel and weld a narrowboat hull up yourself, but most people realise that the raw material isn't why hulls cost what they do... 😉

It is not a theme of mine to repeatedly bang a drum about companies daring to sell stuff … blah blah. It is you making stuff up in order to make a personal attack on me. Everyone can see it, except you.

 

What it is is me pointing out that the component cost is a small fraction of the retail price. I didn’t think we disagreed about that. But you will find any excuse to have a go of course.

 

I also mentioned that when deciding on the retail price of a product, as well as deciding on a strategy to recover the development costs over a reasonable time, and make a reasonable profit, one would also look at the existing market to review competitor prices. If the other calculations revealed that you could sell the product at 50% the price of the competitors, it would foolish to do so. Selling it for 90% of the competitor price would be better, or even 110%, because in this sort of market people think cheaper is worse and more expensive is better, and there is no point in making less profit just for the sake of it.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

It is not a theme of mine to repeatedly bang a drum about companies daring to sell stuff … blah blah. It is you making stuff up in order to make a personal attack on me. Everyone can see it, except you.

 

What it is is me pointing out that the component cost is a small fraction of the retail price. I didn’t think we disagreed about that. But you will find any excuse to have a go of course.

 

I also mentioned that when deciding on the retail price of a product, as well as deciding on a strategy to recover the development costs over a reasonable time, and make a reasonable profit, one would also look at the existing market to review competitor prices. If the other calculations revealed that you could sell the product at 50% the price of the competitors, it would foolish to do so. Selling it for 90% of the competitor price would be better, or even 110%, because in this sort of market people think cheaper is worse and more expensive is better, and there is no point in making less profit just for the sake of it.

You know you accused me of posting a long rant in response to your "fact"?... 😉

[nicknorman]

It’s a shame you have to reduce every thread you contribute to, to personal conflict.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It’s a shame you have to reduce every thread you contribute to, to personal conflict.

Pot, kettle.

[nicknorman]

I tried to send this by PM but I got the system response “IanD cannot receive messages”. Presumably there is an option to turn off receiving PMs which you have selected. So I’ll have to make it public. This is what I said in my PM:

 

On the one hand you seem quite intelligent and knowledgeable. But on the other hand, sometimes incredibly childish. “Pot, kettle etc” is just so playground along with a total inability to recognise your own behaviour.

 

I am going to stop interacting with you because you turn everything into an argument, even when we basically agree. Which is a shame because we both share a lot of knowledge and expertise and could have some interesting discussions. But I really can’t be bothered with the petty playground bickering. So you win, I’m out.

[dmr]

The end of the Adverc, it has worked well for our 15 years of owning this boat, but things move on.

Goliath, I like wires, they're almost as much fun as beer 😀.

 

Now that we don't move quite as much as we used to its more difficult to keep the batteries in good condition, so I think Lithium is on the horizon. I don't like the "drop in hybrid" approach so I hope that this is the way to go.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Good luck with it, I’m sure you’ll solve it,

yes, I was admiring your wiring,

I like solar so I’ll see how I get on with my extra solar panel this summer,

it’s been good to me this winter but then I’ve hardly used any electricity,

proof will be when I get that freezer going again,

 

 

[dmr]

We use just over 100Amp-hour each day, I just don't know where it all goes 😀. Solar is not the answer for us, already too much boaty infrastructure on the roof and we spend winters in the Calder Valley where it rains every day and the sun sets at 2pm. My plan is to have at least about 600Ah of lithium and be able to charge at about 100 amps, so could easily go three days between engine runs. This is an "hour per day" approach, I want to generate a days worth of electricity in an hour of engine running.

Currently have 720Ah of Trojans and when they are due for replacement it will be lithiums. The Zeus is expensive but its key to doing a proper lithium system.

[cheesegas]

7 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Good luck with it, I’m sure you’ll solve it,

yes, I was admiring your wiring,

I like solar so I’ll see how I get on with my extra solar panel this summer,

it’s been good to me this winter but then I’ve hardly used any electricity,

proof will be when I get that freezer going again,

I think everyone likes solar! I have 1kw of panels on the roof and no space for any more. Fridge stays on year round, the first year I was on the boat I turned it off and used the great outdoors and gave myself the worst food poisoning ever. And a fox pissed on my fridge box. These regulators are great for liveaboards without shore power as you can put a huge amount of energy into the battery very quickly. My alternator usually gets switched off around May and solar does everything including charging the starter battery.

 

39 minutes ago, dmr said:

We use just over 100Amp-hour each day, I just don't know where it all goes 😀. Solar is not the answer for us, already too much boaty infrastructure on the roof and we spend winters in the Calder Valley where it rains every day and the sun sets at 2pm. My plan is to have at least about 600Ah of lithium and be able to charge at about 100 amps, so could easily go three days between engine runs. This is an "hour per day" approach, I want to generate a days worth of electricity in an hour of engine running.

That's about average I think, if a little on the high side. In winter, cooking with gas, I use around 70-80ah per 24hrs. That's with the fridge running, laptop charging if I'm working from home, wifi router on 24/7, being reasonably careful with power. In summer, the inverter stays on 24/7 and I use my electric kettle, toaster and induction hotplate, usage goes up to around 2 or 3 times that.

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

I think everyone likes solar! I have 1kw of panels on the roof and no space for any more. Fridge stays on year round, the first year I was on the boat I turned it off and used the great outdoors and gave myself the worst food poisoning ever. And a fox pissed on my fridge box. These regulators are great for liveaboards without shore power as you can put a huge amount of energy into the battery very quickly. My alternator usually gets switched off around May and solar does everything including charging the starter battery.

 

That's about average I think, if a little on the high side. In winter, cooking with gas, I use around 70-80ah per 24hrs. That's with the fridge running, laptop charging if I'm working from home, wifi router on 24/7, being reasonably careful with power. In summer, the inverter stays on 24/7 and I use my electric kettle, toaster and induction hotplate, usage goes up to around 2 or 3 times that.

 

I do need to work out where those amp-hours go. The fridge is 14 years old now so pobably not the best. The router is always on, as are a few LED fairy lights but thats all only milli-amps. My laptop is on most of the time but its efficient. I suspect my wifes very old Macbook is a factor but whenever I measure it I don't find a problem. We don't use the inverter much at all, the washing machine runs of the TravelPower when the engine runs.

 

I've only had the ability to count amp-hours for a few weeks so have not done a really good study yet.

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I do need to work out where those amp-hours go. The fridge is 14 years old now so pobably not the best. The router is always on, as are a few LED fairy lights but thats all only milli-amps. My laptop is on most of the time but its efficient. I suspect my wifes very old Macbook is a factor but whenever I measure it I don't find a problem. We don't use the inverter much at all, the washing machine runs of the TravelPower when the engine runs.

 

I've only had the ability to count amp-hours for a few weeks so have not done a really good study yet.

A couple of years ago I noticed our (Shoreline compressor) fridge was running most of the time, even when the ambient temperature was average. I put an hour counter on it, discovered it was running about 70% of the time.

 

In the end I got a gas kit from Amazon and added some “compatible” gas though not the original gas. Net result it now doesn’t run most of the time. I guess more like 25% of the time. So that might be one option, I think it cost around £50. Which is a lot less than a new fridge!

 

Also we do have RGB LED tape running under the gunnels through the open plan saloon/dinette/galley which uses a surprising amount of juice, around 5A.

[dmr]

52 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

A couple of years ago I noticed our (Shoreline compressor) fridge was running most of the time, even when the ambient temperature was average. I put an hour counter on it, discovered it was running about 70% of the time.

 

In the end I got a gas kit from Amazon and added some “compatible” gas though not the original gas. Net result it now doesn’t run most of the time. I guess more like 25% of the time. So that might be one option, I think it cost around £50. Which is a lot less than a new fridge!

 

Also we do have RGB LED tape running under the gunnels through the open plan saloon/dinette/galley which uses a surprising amount of juice, around 5A.

 

The boat next door has just got himself a full re-gassing kit, but in our case the door seal is going and some of the plastic interior has cracked so I think a new fridge is in order, its done a good job and easily earned its keep.

 

We have several sets of the "bare wire" style LED lights, they look pretty and are good night time safety lights. These are the ones that have a big USB plug with a button and sequential presses select various flash modes. This is a bit tedious so we just leave them on. These lights have various fade in and out modes so they must be doing a very high frequency switching to implement the dimming?  and for this reason I suspect they use quite a bit less current than the simple always on LEDS. I need to confirm this.

[IanD]

12 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I tried to send this by PM but I got the system response “IanD cannot receive messages”. Presumably there is an option to turn off receiving PMs which you have selected. So I’ll have to make it public. This is what I said in my PM:

 

 

On the one hand you seem quite intelligent and knowledgeable. But on the other hand, sometimes incredibly childish. “Pot, kettle etc” is just so playground along with a total inability to recognise your own behaviour.

 

I am going to stop interacting with you because you turn everything into an argument, even when we basically agree. Which is a shame because we both share a lot of knowledge and expertise and could have some interesting discussions. But I really can’t be bothered with the petty playground bickering. So you win, I’m out.

Like I said last time we had an interaction tonight like this, you keep accusing me of exactly what you're doing yourself -- which is what "pot, kettle" said in fewer words.

 

If you kept discussions to the facts then we could indeed have more useful discussions. Last time I tried that (melting CANBUS...) you threw your toys out of the pram in a bout of denial, strawman arguments and blame transferral -- oh and look, here we are again... 😞

 

I've even tried offering olive branches to calm things down by agreeing that DIY is cheaper -- and as I've said, I've done plenty myself -- but you keep going on about how expensive commercial kit is (for good reasons) and then denying that's what you said or trying to divert the argument away by attacking what I said, even though it's true -- again, same tactics as last time.

 

Maybe if we met up over a beer we could actually have an interesting and useful conversation, but it doesn't seem likely to happen on here... 😞

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Like I said last time we had an interaction tonight like this, you keep accusing me of exactly what you're doing yourself -- which is what "pot, kettle" said in fewer words.

 

If you kept discussions to the facts then we could indeed have more useful discussions. Last time I tried that (melting CANBUS...) you threw your toys out of the pram in a bout of denial, strawman arguments and blame transferral -- oh and look, here we are again... 😞

 

I've even tried offering olive branches to calm things down by agreeing that DIY is cheaper -- and as I've said, I've done plenty myself -- but you keep going on about how expensive commercial kit is (for good reasons) and then denying that's what you said or trying to divert the argument away by attacking what I said, even though it's true -- again, same tactics as last time.

 

Maybe if we met up over a beer we could actually have an interesting and useful conversation, but it doesn't seem likely to happen on here... 😞

 

Yes, a beer sounds like a good idea.

The arguments here are just going to get useful threads shut down.  There are a couple of posters on this forum who have a "reputation" and I have met them in real life and found them to be good people. There are also one or two here who I hope I never meet.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

This is an "hour per day" approach, I want to generate a days worth of electricity in an hour of engine running.

Currently have 720Ah of Trojans and when they are due for replacement it will be lithiums. The Zeus is expensive but its key to doing a proper lithium system.

 

Expensive but if you achieve your “hour a day” approach it’ll have been more than worth it.

Quite a target to set,

when will you be set up and running with it?

 

 

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

Yes, a beer sounds like a good idea.

The arguments here are just going to get useful threads shut down.  There are a couple of posters on this forum who have a "reputation" and I have met them in real life and found them to be good people. There are also one or two here who I hope I never meet.

 

Beer is *always* a good idea 🙂

 

Back on topic, it would be helpful if you posted both good and not-so-good things you find out about the Zeus, it does look like an excellent (if expensive!) solution but what it's really like to set up and use (and how well it works) is what matters -- especially if there are things that they haven't thought of which are less-than-ideal for a narrowboat application, which is presumably very low on their priority list.

 

Though like a lot of Victron kit, if the issue is software/firmware not the hardware this can often be fixed with an update, assuming the manufacturers are willing to listen to users and make changes -- and it's been built so that the firmware can be upgraded easily... 🙂

Edited February 25 by IanD

[cheesegas]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

I do need to work out where those amp-hours go.

Little loads add up very fast. My compost toilet extractor, wifi router, Fire tablet (on the cabin wall for system monitoring) all add up to 1 amp. This is 24ah a day!

 

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Also we do have RGB LED tape running under the gunnels through the open plan saloon/dinette/galley which uses a surprising amount of juice, around 5A.

LED tape is pretty damn inefficient in terms of watts consumed and lumens output compared to something like an LED torch for a couple of reasons. As it's on a tape, there's no easy way for the LEDs to shed their heat, no heatsink...so they run hot, which in turn reduces their output. The high brightness tape is a lot more inefficient too.

 

Also, so you can cut it to length and use a constant voltage driver, there's loads of current limiting resistors built into the tape, as you probably know, this way of driving LEDs is far less efficient than a constant current driver...but then you wouldn't be able to cut to length.