Lithium Batteries installation

[kris88]

19 hours ago, magnetman said:

Is there any reason why the MPPT would object to a voltage which was not jumping around? Presumably with solar panels with no shade and a sunny day this would be quite a common outcome. 

Talk to James about this. As he was talking to me about this a couple of years ago and he has experience of doing it. He was suggesting to me that I could use a solar mppt controller on the output of a Oxford oil filled welding set, that has the battery charging option. This would be to regulate the output of battery charger for use with lifepo4’s. He had been doing something similar. 

[IanD]

42 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

And back here in the real world, the above is not available to the average muppet boater like me with other stuff to do with their lives. The options for us are:

 

1) A cheap-as-chips hybrid drop-in regulated by a long bit of wire (tolerating the tiny risk of the internal BMS failing)

2) £6k+ dropped into the coffers of Ed Shiers or similar

3) Stick with the LA bank and keep on wearing down the patience of the neighbours with excessive engine running in winter

 

 

Any boater who wants to avoid the LA engine running times can buy an LFP domestic battery and the Victron B2B, which only adds about 25% to the cost of the battery and has many advantages over a length of wire. Keep the existing LA starter battery/alternator, connect solar MPPT to the LFP. Simple, should be safe and reliable, unlikely to have any insurance problems in the future 🙂

 

If you can't afford that -- which basically means you can't afford LFP at all -- stick with LA... 😉

Edited February 11 by IanD

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Any boater who wants to avoid the LA engine running times can buy an LFP domestic battery and the Victron B2B, which only adds about 25% to the cost of the battery and has many advantages over a length of wire. Keep the existing LA starter battery/alternator, connect solar MPPT to the LFP. Simple, should be safe and reliable, unlikely to have any insurance problems in the future 🙂

 

If you can't afford that -- which basically means you can't afford LFP at all -- stick with LA... 😉

 

 

Which Victron B2B, exactly? 

 

Maybe I'll get one to play with. If I can see any advantage over my nine quid length of wire!

 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

48 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

And back here in the real world, the above is not available to the average muppet boater like me with other stuff to do with their lives. The options for us are:

 

1) A cheap-as-chips hybrid drop-in regulated by a long bit of wire (tolerating the tiny risk of the internal BMS failing)

2) £6k+ dropped into the coffers of Ed Shiers or similar

3) Stick with the LA bank and keep on wearing down the patience of the neighbours with excessive engine running in winter

 

 

Fourth option is to get one of those new victron B2Bs instead of a wire.

Not that cheap, but you can precisely control the charging of the lithiums and set bulk/float values so that they don't get overcharged.

 

I remember that a few of the more experienced contributors dropped the use of B2Bs as they were disappointed with the wastefulness and general performance of the Sterling 1260 units, but this new victron with its claimed 98% efficiency might be a great solution and help prolong the lithiums' lifespan too. 

It might even meet possible future safety regs because the LA and lithiums are not directly and permanently connected?

 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes I get the  cost thing and that was my point really - the intrinsic cost (component cost) of a fancy smart alternator regulator is less than £100 so it is a shame that they cost nearly 10 times that. The only reason why they do cost that much is because the manufacturer and the retailer both need to make a profit, and a lot of up-front man-hours go into software development, testing etc.

 

But there is a lot of “open source” stuff out there, people give freely of their time to create stuff and publish it on the internet, which eliminates most of the one-off costs above. So it’s a shame that this doesn’t happen for an alternator controller project. Well it did, as we know, but it then went commercial.

 

That's the same for any commercial product, or food or drink in a pub or restaurant -- DIY is always cheaper, especially if you value your time and effort at zero... 😉

 

The problem with any home-brewed kit when high voltages (mains) or currents (big batteries) are concerned is build quality/reliability/testing/debugging, and insurers are justifiably wary because of this.

 

Commercial gear -- at least, from reputable manufacturers -- should have been built to accepted standards and (hopefully!) extensively tested and debugged, and having larger numbers out there makes it likely that and design faults/bugs are known and get fixed.

 

Don't get me wrong, DIY electrical/electronic gear made properly by people who know what they're doing is absolutely fine, and may even be better than commercial gear because there's less tendency to shave off pennies and cut corners -- I've built lots myself over the years when I couldn't buy (or afford!) what I wanted.

 

But some of it is also bodged deathtrap material built be people who don't know or care how to do it properly, and I've seen plenty of that too... 😞

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Which Victron B2B, exactly? 

 

Maybe I'll get one to play with. If I can see any advantage over my nine quid length of wire!

 

 

The Victron Orion XS I gave the link to earlier. Mind you, I can't see you dropping £300 on something just to have a play with it... 😉

Edited February 11 by IanD

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Well currently I have nothing bar an unconnected alternator on the boat. So it's a reasonable question what to install.

But the choice seems to be between a costly professional install, a simple DIY hybrid system with a long bit of wire, getting up to speed with some sort of self-developed electronic control system or sticking with lead acid, the 2nd and 3rd options apparently falling foul of battery manufacturers' instructions, relevant standards and insurance requirements. Hence, slightly reluctantly thinking of heading down the LA route.

 

Incidentally, have any of the hire boat firms gone down the lithium route, or are they all sticking with tried and tested technology, widely understood and easily fixed if something goes wrong?

Hire yards on the Broads have been using lithium batteries on their more up market boats for many years now.

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Well currently I have nothing bar an unconnected alternator on the boat. So it's a reasonable question what to install.

But the choice seems to be between a costly professional install, a simple DIY hybrid system with a long bit of wire, getting up to speed with some sort of self-developed electronic control system or sticking with lead acid, the 2nd and 3rd options apparently falling foul of battery manufacturers' instructions, relevant standards and insurance requirements. Hence, slightly reluctantly thinking of heading down the LA route.

 

Incidentally, have any of the hire boat firms gone down the lithium route, or are they all sticking with tried and tested technology, widely understood and easily fixed if something goes wrong?

 

 

Victron AGM batteries are very good quality. Not cheap but if you don't want to do lithium because it is complicated AGM is still a valid solution specially for a Boat which is cruising rather than moored when occupied. 

 

Obviously being able to cram in as much charge as possible in a short time is desirable for someone who moors for two weeks then moves because the law says they should. 

For someone whose Boat tends to be moving for several hours per day the advantage is less significant. 

 

People always used to do OK with lead batteries and they can still do the job on a Boat which is not set up like an apartment. 

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

The Victron Orion XS I gave the link to earlier. Mind you, I can't see you dropping £300 on something just to have a play with it... 😉

The item you linked to earlier on the Offgrid Power Solutions website is described as an Orion XS, but the corresponding picture shows a "non-isolated DC/DC charger". I thought the whole point of such a unit in this application is that the two sides of the system are isolated from each other.

 

[MtB]

42 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The item you linked to earlier on the Offgrid Power Solutions website is described as an Orion XS, but the corresponding picture shows a "non-isolated DC/DC charger". I thought the whole point of such a unit in this application is that the two sides of the system are isolated from each other.

 

 

 

Might be the wrong picture, as nowhere does the thing bear the title "Orion XS", afaics.

 

 

 

This looks more like it...

 

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

The Orion XS 50A is non isolated. The 30A version is isolated. 

 

BuckBoost 50 is the previous name of the Orion XS 50A. 

 

 

[MtB]

Still seems to share a "Ground" terminal though!  

 

 

[magnetman]

In the specs it is written non isolated for the Orion 50 but not written on the blue casing. 

[Richard10002]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

Still seems to share a "Ground" terminal though!  

 

 

Does that matter? I have the Orion 30A thing, and chose isolated over non isolated. The non isolated, ( common ground), was cheaper, so it would be handy to know the difference. 

[dmr]

In most cases, as long as the system has good hefty negative cabling there should be no need for isolation. Victron themselves say this, and also point out that their isolated devices are less efficient though the figures in the data sheets don't really back this up.

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

The item you linked to earlier on the Offgrid Power Solutions website is described as an Orion XS, but the corresponding picture shows a "non-isolated DC/DC charger". I thought the whole point of such a unit in this application is that the two sides of the system are isolated from each other.

 

 

With the B2Bs I have, you can buy isolated or non-isolated versions. 

But I would give the lithium option a bit more consideration. From what I've seen of mine, they dont need much checking or maintenance once its been set up. 

It comes on as soon as the voltage in the lead acid source battery rises above a user-set level (r you can add a delay on that), and it switched off when the lead acid voltage falls below your set level, in my case I use 13.4 I think, so that it switches off within a few seconds of the engine switching off.

You can usually wire them to come on/off with the ignition of you want to, but the voltage option works well. 

 

If I set the bulk charging voltage to about 13.8 or 13.9, the B2Bs will go into float when the lithiums are about 80-90% full, so they never get over stressed. I set the float voltage to 12.5v so effectively the charging stops once it goes into float. I'm wondering if the new B2B model might have an option not to bother with float, since its no use with lithiums anyway.

 

But either way, they can pretty much look after themselves once you've got them set up.

 

One potential problem issue not yet mentioned in this thread is you running the lithiums SoC or voltage down too low.

I use a victron BMV712 and a BEP701 switch to physically disconnect the load cables from the lithiums once the SoC or voltage gets too low, but thats another £500 cost, which is not great. 

You could rely on you keeping an eye on the SoC, and ultimately the lithiums own internal BMS will disconnect them as a protection measure if you forget and run them too low.

I would hope that their BMS would let you configure that internal low voltage disconnect value, since the default set values seem a bit extreme.  

 

But the overcharging risks can be well managed by the B2B itself, such that very little monitoring or intervention is needed by the user as part of day to day use.

 

Edited February 11 by Tony1

[magnetman]

The orion 50 seems to have a vibration sensor so it goes on and off with the engine. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

The item you linked to earlier on the Offgrid Power Solutions website is described as an Orion XS, but the corresponding picture shows a "non-isolated DC/DC charger". I thought the whole point of such a unit in this application is that the two sides of the system are isolated from each other.

 

Why? Vin and Vout are isolated, they have a common GND, which is fine. "Isolated" means the grounds are electrically separate, not needed for a system like this.

 

The Victron link I gave was the correct one, the other one had an old photo.

 

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

Victron AGM batteries are very good quality. Not cheap but if you don't want to do lithium because it is complicated AGM is still a valid solution specially for a Boat which is cruising rather than moored when occupied. 

 

Obviously being able to cram in as much charge as possible in a short time is desirable for someone who moors for two weeks then moves because the law says they should. 

For someone whose Boat tends to be moving for several hours per day the advantage is less significant. 

 

People always used to do OK with lead batteries and they can still do the job on a Boat which is not set up like an apartment. 

 

 

Nothing to do with being set up like an apartment -- of course LA do the job, but you have to run the engine for hours to get them fully charged/equalised as current falls off and prevent sulphation if you don't want them to die an early death.

 

LFP accepting full current up to 100% SoC and then stopping -- plus higher cycle efficiency -- means maybe half the engine running time and wear and less fuel burned, which is why a lot of boaters are fitting them even in non-apartment boats... 😉

Edited February 11 by IanD

[magnetman]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

Nothing to do with being set up like an apartment -- of course LA do the job, but you have to run the engine for hours to get them fully charged/equalised as current falls off and prevent sulphation if you don't want them to die an early death.

 

LFP accepting full current up to 100% SoC and then stopping -- plus higher cycle efficiency -- means maybe half the engine running time and wear and less fuel burned, which is why a lot of boaters are fitting them even in non-apartment boats... 😉

Some people run their engines for several hours while moving the Boat and don't have washing machines. The Boat may well be on mains power when not being used. 

 

Yes lithium batteries are a lot better but -depending on how one uses the Boat- decent AGM is still a valid option. Particularly for someone who has an alternator which is currently doing nothing. This seems to indicate a low energy consumer or maybe an unfinished Boat. 

 

 

Edited February 11 by magnetman
quoted text

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Some people run their engines for several hours while moving the Boat and don't have washing machines. The Boat may well be on mains power when not being used. 

 

Yes lithium batteries are a lot better but -depending on how one uses the Boat- decent AGM is still a valid option. Particularly for someone who has an alternator which is currently doing nothing. This seems to indicate a low energy consumer or maybe an unfinished Boat. 

 

 

The vast majority of boats round here moored online don't move much, don't have washing machines, don't have shore power, and run either their engine or generator regularly for hours in winter to keep their batteries charged. If they could afford to switch to LFP they'd probably halve generator/engine running time.

 

AGM still have most of the same problems as standard LA, they just cost more and -- if treated properly -- last longer. If not treated properly they still die an early death, as many boaters have found... 😞

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

The vast majority of boats round here moored online don't move much, don't have washing machines, don't have shore power, and run either their engine or generator regularly for hours in winter to keep their batteries charged. If they could afford to switch to LFP they'd probably halve generator/engine running time.

 

AGM still have most of the same problems as standard LA, they just cost more and -- if treated properly -- last longer. If not treated properly they still die an early death, as many boaters have found... 😞

It was @David Mack who said he might reluctantly buy lead acid. We are not talking about 'most of the Boats' I was referring to a comment by a single contributor. 

 

 

 

I'm not arguing about whether lithium is better. It obviously is but it is not the only valid option for a Boat which is used for Boating such as a historic might be. 

[Tony1]

51 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The orion 50 seems to have a vibration sensor so it goes on and off with the engine. 

 

If someone was to throttle a ferret- just as a hobby, say- is the B2B sensitive enough to pick up that sort of vibration?

A friend was asking.

He wouldn't want the B2B switching on every time he offed one of his wee beasties.

Victron will have surely thought of that.

 

 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

If someone was to throttle a ferret- just as a hobby, say- is the B2B sensitive enough to pick up that sort of vibration?

A friend was asking.

He wouldn't want the B2B switching on every time he offed one of his wee beasties.

Victron will have surely thought of that.

 

 

You'd hope so. I believe it can also be set to  come on at a given LA voltage which would only happen when the alternator is charging it, or can be triggered from the engine run connection -- one way or the other should work, given three two ways to do this... 😉

 

Actually 2 ways, @magnetman seems to have been imagining the vibration detection... 😉

Edited February 11 by IanD
imaginary vibration sensor...

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

If someone was to throttle a ferret- just as a hobby, say- is the B2B sensitive enough to pick up that sort of vibration?

A friend was asking.

He wouldn't want the B2B switching on every time he offed one of his wee beasties.

Victron will have surely thought of that.

 

 

I wondered if they had considered that diesel heaters like the neverspacher often get installed in engine bays. 

 

 

Windy nights with poor fendering. 

 

Ladies and gentleman activities. 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

The orion 50 seems to have a vibration sensor so it goes on and off with the engine. 

Dunno where you got that idea from, it's not in the manual -- engine run/stop detection is either via input voltage or a switched power connection (engine run)...

[Tony1]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Ladies and gentleman activities. 

 

Heavens, just imagine. If one were to engage in "affairs of the heart" on the boat it could be a nightmare.

Especially with me being so handsome and charming and everything. And constantly getting pestered by lady boaters vying for my attention and wanting sexual favours. 

Well I do declare. The poor B2B would be on and off all night.  

Victron better get their act together or there'll be a warranty claim on their hands.

 

Edited February 11 by Tony1