New BMC vedette owner needs some info !!

[Tracy D'arth]

Wow, space engine in a narrow boat!  What warp factor are you aiming for? I have spare dilithium crystals.

Spell checkers and predictive text do throw up some comical results.

Agree, a spare motor is good to have for all the little bits that cannot be bought anymore.

[BEngo]

As the boat is out of water, it is quite possible that a previous owner  has filled the engine with antifreeze mixture to prevent frost damage and internal corrosion.  All that is needed is to stick the intake hose from the seacock in a bucket of ready mixed antifreeze and run the engine for a couple of minutes.  The jabsco pump will then push antifreeze into the block

 

 

N

[nicjo]

On 16/01/2024 at 10:25, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If it has been sat for 2 years without regular running of the engine then I'd suggest that the vanes in the impeller will have welded themselves to inside of the pump, and, when you start the engine they will get torn-off. You then have bits of rubber circulating in your cooling system which will cause blockages.

 

Find the pump and remove the faceplate (take a photograph of the impeller so you know which way the vanes defelect) and take out the old impeller, replace it with a new one (silicone grease the tips) ensuring the vanes are bent the correct way.

 

You are probably looking for something like this. It may be belt driven or attached directly to the engine (like mine) - if not overpainted it would normally have a brass faceplate  ........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alan where did you get that impeller for the pump from please ? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Alan where did you get that impeller for the pump from please ? 

 

 

Any decent chandlery - you'll find a better choice of stuff at some of the online 'marine' chandlers rather than you canalside little shop.

 

Just one exaample :

 

"100s" of impellers, just find the one for your pump.

 

Search Results for impeller | (force4.co.uk)

[nicjo]

Thanks … there’s a complete one on eBay may buy that .. confused still on the water direction on motor .. 

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, nicjo said:

confused still on the water direction on motor .. 

 

You show a pair of raw water inlet strainers that T into the raw water pump inlet hose. The photo shows the raw water pump outlet pipe, so follow this to see where it runs to. You can see the engine inlet point on the front of the engine, but nothing between the pump outlet and engine inlet so no idea that is going on, but I would expect a T so when the thermostat is closed water can still be delivered to the wet exhaust. You can also see a strainer on the pipe running into the engine.

 

The water outlet on the engine is on the thermostat housing and this is shown in one of your photos, but not where it runs to.

 

I fear that if you what us to help explain it, you either need to post a lot more photos showing ALL the pipework, or draw a diagram of what you find when you follow the pipes.

[nicjo]

ok i was having a good look today from what i can see.. there is two inlets that go up to the T after the Jabsco. (im guess theres x2 inlets incase one fouls up?).. Then at the T it heads left into the engine block and i imagine circulates till thermo open and kicks it into the exhaust.. And the right T part goes direct into the exhaust as soon as starts up .. ? think im getting there.. 

[Tony Brooks]

41 minutes ago, nicjo said:

ok i was having a good look today from what i can see.. there is two inlets that go up to the T after the Jabsco. (im guess theres x2 inlets incase one fouls up?).. Then at the T it heads left into the engine block and i imagine circulates till thermo open and kicks it into the exhaust.. And the right T part goes direct into the exhaust as soon as starts up .. ? think im getting there.. 

 

Yes, I think you are, but that T may be more than a simple T or there may be an extra fitting in one of the pipes. Either a restrictor or a one way valve that will also restrict the flow. This is based on the 1.5 diesel, so the Vedette may be different.

[nicjo]

Hi Tony 

 

Been the boat today and got here running on the trailer.. Ive put an oil wynnes treatment in to breakdown the oil before i change it so ran it for 2 mins.. on trailer had the sea cock shut but the brass tops off ready to pour in fresh water to cool her down however this never happened the water wasnt sucking up .. last week i replaced the impeller and it drives around ok when running.. Would i guess the impellor wont suck up until the thermo stat opens in the engine once reached temp? Also theres no drain for the oil on bottom of the sump on my engine or even my spare engine.. How do you drain oil? Suck it through the dipstick is all i can think .. 

 

thanks  Nick 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Hi Tony 

 

Been the boat today and got here running on the trailer.. Ive put an oil wynnes treatment in to breakdown the oil before i change it so ran it for 2 mins.. on trailer had the sea cock shut but the brass tops off ready to pour in fresh water to cool her down however this never happened the water wasnt sucking up .. last week i replaced the impeller and it drives around ok when running.. Would i guess the impellor wont suck up until the thermo stat opens in the engine once reached temp? Also theres no drain for the oil on bottom of the sump on my engine or even my spare engine.. How do you drain oil? Suck it through the dipstick is all i can think .. 

 

thanks  Nick 

 

The impellor should be sucking (and 'blowing') water the instant it starts to rotate.

You mean to say that the sea-cock was closed and there was no water in the pipe from the sea-cock to the pump ?

Had you primed it ?

 

If has rotated for more than a minute without water then it is (almost certainly) in need of replacement as the tips of the vanes will have burnt off.

[nicjo]

Also what oil you using for the engine and the gearbox? 

not synthetic I take it? 

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The impellor should be sucking (and 'blowing') water the instant it starts to rotate.

You mean to say that the sea-cock was closed and there was no water in the pipe from the sea-cock to the pump ?

Had you primed it ?

 

If has rotated for more than a minute without water then it is (almost certainly) in need of replacement as the tips of the vanes will have burnt off.

I closed the sea cock as the water would have just feel onto the trailer below.. Then took brass cap of the sea cock filter and place a funnel in with water and nothing went down / up to the pump.. I did grease the impeller before in case ran dry for a minute so maybe ok will check .. Didnt prime it ? How'd you

prime the water ? Thanks 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Didnt prime it ? How'd you

 

To prime it (when there is no water supply) - take the face plate of the impellor,  fill the pipe with water until it starts to run out of the pump.

Put the face plate back on. Start to pour water into the funnel, get someone to stat the engine for you - don't wait for the level to drop as it will pump 'a pipe amount' in a second or three. (Yes you will be getting water into the bilge but unless you are in the water its goinf to be messy).

 

Nest question : Impellors only spin in one direction, if you put them in the wrong way when the engine starts the vanes / fingers will be damaged, the tips broken off, or even the whole 'finger' ripped off within one revolution of the impellor.

The impellor vanes must be bent in the correct direction to allow the rotation to flex them over the 'flat' in the pump. If they are bent the wrong way, then as the impellor is rotated the fingers need to turn in the space by 180 degrees - there is not room for them to do this, so the break off.

 

Did you take a picture of the old impellor to show you which was to bend the fingers when you fitted it ?

This impellor rotates anti-clockwise, so the fingers can bend back on themselves as it rides over the 'flat' in the pump (right hand side) That is what generates the pumping action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What happens to an impellor if you run it dry or put it in the 'wrong way'

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18 by Alan de Enfield

[nicjo]

hi thanks yes i took a photo and ensured the blades where in same direction.. I'll pop back down the boat now and retry !! will update you !! 

 

[nicjo]

Ok been boat set a high level feed into the jabsco and 👍.. was sucking like a £&@!.. picking up an oil sucker tonight to drain oil out .. and will change filter at same time .. replaced to fuel filter x2 which looked like they was old . A lot of water in them .. so will check the fuel filler .. and looks like no one has every drained them on service .. so far so good thanks all for assistance 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, nicjo said:

Also what oil you using for the engine and the gearbox? 

not synthetic I take it? 

 

I closed the sea cock as the water would have just feel onto the trailer below.. Then took brass cap of the sea cock filter and place a funnel in with water and nothing went down / up to the pump.. I did grease the impeller before in case ran dry for a minute so maybe ok will check .. Didnt prime it ? How'd you

prime the water ? Thanks 

 

Right, what you did should have allowed it to self prime and when you take the faceplate off the pump me guess is that all the vanes will be correctly orientated with no significant damage BUT:

 

This is a very old engine and the way the pump works puts side thrust on the shaft. I am all but certain that your pump has the shaft running in the metal pump body, hence the greaser. It probably has an oil/water seal under the wear plate in the back of the pumping chamber. It will have another seal at the backend of the pump body. If the body is worn, and there is a very good chance that is the case, and the seal is fitted backwards or is also worn then it won't prime because it can suck air down the shaft. Try filling the greaser and screwing it down as tight as you can. That just might seal the shaft enough for it to prime with a bit of a rev.

 

With the impeller out, try moving the shaft from side to side, that may give you some idea about wear in the body.

[nicjo]

Any ideas on an engine oil and gearbox specs for the BMC engine ? 

 

What are users putting in ? 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Any ideas on an engine oil and gearbox specs for the BMC engine ? 

 

What are users putting in ? 

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

Look back to Jan 15th on page 1 of this topic. I posted the table out of the manual

 

Gearbox and reduction box use what the manual says. For the engine I am sure SAE20W50 oil or SAE 30 will do. API about SF. It won't need anything fancy.

[nicjo]

Just sucked out only 2 litres from engine 😏 and about 100ml from gearbox !!! Bought my oil and gearbox oil (ep140) .. any idea of quantity of oil needed in the box 

[john.k]

Be aware the main part of the reversing gear uses engine oil........ONLY the reduction gears use EP .....and far as I can see ,there are NO reduction gears .......using EP in the reversing part may cause clutch slippage a drag.

[bizzard]

EP140 is very thick known as Castrol High press use to be used in prewar car differentials. Smells of almonds.  EP80-90 smells of cats pee.

Edited March 19 by bizzard

[nicjo]

Ok I’ve took a look at my spare identical engine and box .. the engine oil in sump  can’t get into bell housing area or gearbox / drive as both separate units .. however as per photo on my spare there is looks like a breather pipe the goes from next to the dipstick to the bottom of bell housing. Possibly a breather I’m guessing and not a feed ??? .. so the box needs engine oil ? Or ep140? ? If so what quantity? Approximately? 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, bizzard said:

EP140 is very thick known as Castrol High press use to be used in prewar car differentials. Smells of almonds.  EP80-90 smells of cats pee.

 

From the photos the OP has no reduction box so I think he did not need to buy the EP140. I echo what JohnK said about the actual gearbox using engine oil.

2 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Ok I’ve took a look at my spare identical engine and box .. the engine oil in sump  can’t get into bell housing area or gearbox / drive as both separate units .. however as per photo on my spare there is looks like a breather pipe the goes from next to the dipstick to the bottom of bell housing. Possibly a breather I’m guessing and not a feed ??? .. so the box needs engine oil ? Or ep140? ? If so what quantity? Approximately? 

 

Is the engine on its side in the photo because I can't equate that photo with the box in your original photos. This box looks as if it has a split case, the B type does not. Can you take a photo showing more of the box and engine?

 

I thought the B type box has a dipstick in the top, close to the bell housing, but that was a long time ago and here is still a question about if yours is an A type.

 

This is a very distant memory and it might relate to Watermota or Worthan Blake boxes. The manufacturers do not know the angle at which the box will be installed, so (from hazy memory) you fill it until the oil level comes up to the shaft as it exits the back of the box. Hopefully the big drum will be sitting slightly in the oil.

 

No idea what that pipe is for.

 

 

[nicjo]

That’s all my spare engine photos ..  same set up as mine n boat apart from the pipe disconnected from next to engine to bottom bell house 

I imagine I use the dipstick on bell housing for the oil level on gear box drive .. or to bottom of the spinning gears.. 

Was curious on that feed on my spare ? 

[Tony Brooks]

I think that I know what that pipe is, and I also think that you, or a previous owner, guessed it fitted onto the engine sump.

 

Originally these engines would have been fitted with a brass oil drain pump with a three-way valve on the bottom so you could select Gearbox, engine, or OFF. Your pipe went to the gearbox connection and another one that screwed onto the fitting by the MOWOG lettering went to the engine connection on the valve.

 

So not a breather, but an oil drain pump pipe.

 

If you took the fitting on the engine out you would find that it has a vertical tube fitted to it to reach almost to the bottom of the sump.

FWIW, I think that I can also see the distributor drive gear, which will be lubricated by gearbox oil. There appears to be a partition as part of the flywheel housing that probably carries an oil seal. That is one mystery solved. I am now sure that it is an A type box.

 

[nicjo]

great we are getting there!! yes the distributor drive will run of the gear box oil as the oil will be both in housing of the fly wheel and gears. My engine had me stumped way back because there was zero oil on my dipstick in my boat bell housing, but obvs because the level was so low that why i was thinking separate engine oil, then dry bell housing and finally a separate gear box with shaft in between

. But yes its engine oil, feeds the engine and ANOTHER oil in the bell housing / gearbox.. IF that all makes sense ?? 

Soooooo what oil in the rear (excuse me!!!) EP140 or engine oil?