New BMC vedette owner needs some info !!

[nicjo]

Gearbox under flooring to cold today to take up .. 🥶

[Tony Brooks]

27 minutes ago, dmr said:

and a complete engine+gearbox on eBay for £300.

I've got a real soft spot for the BMC A series (and the B's ) but not really suitable for my boat.

 

Do you have a link for that because the one I found seems to have some kind of weird cludge  bracketed onto the back of the engine (exposed flywheel teeth).

[Ken X]

3 hours ago, nicjo said:

on the second photo at start the dipstick to engine is bent and has paint flaking off next to brass drain.. below is the other dipstick looks very dry as if not used? 

Blimey, if that's the engine oil dipstick with the flaking paint then bent doesn't fully cover it, FUBAR is more discriptive. 😀. 

 

Quite intrigued by the drain tap.  It appears to be open, indicating no coolant is present.  Is this the case?

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Ken X said:

Quite intrigued by the drain tap.  It appears to be open, indicating no coolant is present.  Is this the case?

 

I hope so, because I am sure that engine is direct raw water cooled, so if it has not been drained down (including the Jabsco pump & manifold) the OP should expect expensive frost damage.

[dmr]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Do you have a link for that because the one I found seems to have some kind of weird cludge  bracketed onto the back of the engine (exposed flywheel teeth).

This one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225875385660?hash=item349738dd3c:g:OQMAAOSwpQZlN5D3&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwHBOMnxcoCr7WHP3XmHZL5hXMLTcJvXEDCvzZVBR4jrJRPK42a%2BQSq9rJmk3RZSAvKAaa0mDkV%2B2mh0aBQROR2QTtfxLmwAiG3o0wGN1sPG1y6tsz9rbbL8%2FKz5IubBjtVFa8oBryAfUxcQxlxtYe3v41QsbGmMiR88Q%2F67NPILf%2FVrBC2faVxN6pR6%2BlWekqtsqJFRYASF9Z%2BoGReqOC3Wp1bYHHBnQsWxxG4WKH9wMm3a3LfnV3BuJmRvtLJ7MaA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6bE-PGhYw

 

A couple of photos with the gearbox removed, it looks sort of sensible to me but I have not a clue if that is how it should be.

How does that distributer arrangement work? there must be a 2 to 1 reduction in there somewhere? How is it lubricated?

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, dmr said:

This one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225875385660?hash=item349738dd3c:g:OQMAAOSwpQZlN5D3&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwHBOMnxcoCr7WHP3XmHZL5hXMLTcJvXEDCvzZVBR4jrJRPK42a%2BQSq9rJmk3RZSAvKAaa0mDkV%2B2mh0aBQROR2QTtfxLmwAiG3o0wGN1sPG1y6tsz9rbbL8%2FKz5IubBjtVFa8oBryAfUxcQxlxtYe3v41QsbGmMiR88Q%2F67NPILf%2FVrBC2faVxN6pR6%2BlWekqtsqJFRYASF9Z%2BoGReqOC3Wp1bYHHBnQsWxxG4WKH9wMm3a3LfnV3BuJmRvtLJ7MaA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6bE-PGhYw

 

A couple of photos with the gearbox removed, it looks sort of sensible to me but I have not a clue if that is how it should be.

How does that distributer arrangement work? there must be a 2 to 1 reduction in there somewhere? How is it lubricated?

 

Thanks, that is not the one that found, it looks complete.

 

I don't know about the distributor or how it is lubricated, except that it must be. As pointed out by someone else if the flywheel is running in oil then why is oil not pouring out of the starter motor. When the OP gets the manual, hopefully  he will explain it to us all.

[Ken X]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I hope so, because I am sure that engine is direct raw water cooled, so if it has not been drained down (including the Jabsco pump & manifold) the OP should expect expensive frost damage.

That makes perfect sense.  I hadn't clocked it was raw water cooled.  Too used to indirect cooling.

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, Ken X said:

That makes perfect sense.  I hadn't clocked it was raw water cooled.  Too used to indirect cooling.

 

When the Vedette was first designed, I doubt any "marine" engine had anything but direct raw water cooling. I think heat exchangers and keel/skin tank cooling only became popular when many automotive engines were marinised and light alloy parts were used that tended to corrode in salt water. It also seemed to coincide when increases in automotive power outputs demanded cooling system pressurisation, which is more difficult to achieve on a direct raw water cooled engine.

[nicjo]

12 hours ago, dmr said:

and a complete engine+gearbox on eBay for £300.

I've got a real soft spot for the BMC A series (and the B's ) but not really suitable for my boat.

 

Just now, nicjo said:

 

Yes it raw water cooled the brass tap must drain the remaining head water into bilge.. The ebay motor maybe a good idea as a parts engine in case of future issues? Will throw a cheeky bid on it .. 

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Yes it raw water cooled the brass tap must drain the remaining head water into bilge..

 

It should drain the block as well. I would advise taking the tap out and poking a bit of stiff wire into the hole. We found on our direct raw water cooled engines tended to build up a layer of muck in the bottom of the water jacker that blocked the outlet.

 

The brass hexagon in the manifold is the manifold drain, I suggest that you take this out for winter. Poke this one through as well.

 

If you don't know, turn the sea inlet off if the boat is afloat or if ashore just leave it open. Then take the brass plate off the raw water pump and remove the rubber impeller. We kept ours in a tin of water over the winter, but other used glycerine. Make sure the wings on the impeller are not split, have taken a permanent set, or  the round bits on the end of each wing has not been worn flat. It is often advised that the impeller be renewed every year, but hat is usually a bit excessive as long as you inspect it annually.

 

Back to the subject

 

An excellent photo of a B type box has just been posted on is it upside down or down side up..??  that you can compare with your box. The filler is the hexagon just in front of the breather in the rectangular cover. The Ebay images tells us that you probably have the A type box, and it can be filled via the cover bolted to the top of the box.

[nicjo]

thanks for info tony .. its been out water 2 years now . but will pop down and ensure all drains are open .. off course its snow today !! 

 

[dmr]

I remember seeing an old (wooden?) cruiser in the Ellesmere Port museum and that had a BMC engine in it, I wonder if its one of these?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, nicjo said:

thanks for info tony .. its been out water 2 years now . but will pop down and ensure all drains are open .. off course its snow today !! 

 

 

If it has been sat for 2 years without regular running of the engine then I'd suggest that the vanes in the impeller will have welded themselves to inside of the pump, and, when you start the engine they will get torn-off. You then have bits of rubber circulating in your cooling system which will cause blockages.

 

Find the pump and remove the faceplate (take a photograph of the impeller so you know which way the vanes defelect) and take out the old impeller, replace it with a new one (silicone grease the tips) ensuring the vanes are bent the correct way.

 

You are probably looking for something like this. It may be belt driven or attached directly to the engine (like mine) - if not overpainted it would normally have a brass faceplate  ........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

The pump is normally fitted to the timing chain cover, with a drive dog fitted onto the camshaft gear.

 

FWIW, if the pump is the one in the Ebay add there is every chance that the body and shaft will be worn so it is impossible to at least reluctant to prime and will probably leak from the body. This can often be overcome for a very short while by screwing the grease cap right down and refilling it ready to do again.

[Tracy D'arth]

The distributor runs off the end of the camshaft but I cannot remember where the oil pump drives off on the Vedette.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The distributor runs off the end of the camshaft but I cannot remember where the oil pump drives off on the Vedette.

 

I surmised that, but can't see it has space to fit between the engine backplate and flywheel, unless the flywheel is a special casting with a step in the front face. If it is then the drive gear could be in its own housing and lubricated by leakage from the rear camshaft bearing.

[nicjo]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If it has been sat for 2 years without regular running of the engine then I'd suggest that the vanes in the impeller will have welded themselves to inside of the pump, and, when you start the engine they will get torn-off. You then have bits of rubber circulating in your cooling system which will cause blockages.

 

Find the pump and remove the faceplate (take a photograph of the impeller so you know which way the vanes defelect) and take out the old impeller, replace it with a new one (silicone grease the tips) ensuring the vanes are bent the correct way.

 

You are probably looking for something like this. It may be belt driven or attached directly to the engine (like mine) - if not overpainted it would normally have a brass faceplate  ........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok thats great tip will be doing this job ... 

 

19 hours ago, dmr said:

and a complete engine+gearbox on eBay for £300.

I've got a real soft spot for the BMC A series (and the B's ) but not really suitable for my boat.

 

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks, I still think it is an A type box but know no more about it, especially the dipstick.

 

If you take the tin cover off the box and look inside, you should see a big drum with a brake band wrapped around it and three toggles sticking out of the back. I would expect the oil level to be just under halfway up the drum if there is no other information. If someone knows better, happy to be corrected on that.

[nicjo]

yer took off that today the level was low.. at the bottom of the gearing.. so will definitely need a change and top up ... 

Im interested to know how cooling on BMC works.. There is two in or out pipes with tap on them running into engine, so imagine this cools and put out in exhaust ? If so why are there two? Also on turning the brass tap I tasted antifreeze in the block?! So do it have an internal cooling around engine ? without a radiator and another cooling going through exhaust ?

 

 

[dmr]

Nice photo.

Whats with the Solex? I always associate The BMC "A" with the lovely SU. Were the Solex only fitted to the marine engines or do they pre-date the SU?.

 

In addition to multiple minis with the A series I also had a passion for the VW air cooled engine so am horribly familiar with the Solex, the SU is a much nicer carb.

[Tony Brooks]

30 minutes ago, nicjo said:

yer took off that today the level was low.. at the bottom of the gearing.. so will definitely need a change and top up ... 

Im interested to know how cooling on BMC works.. There is two in or out pipes with tap on them running into engine, so imagine this cools and put out in exhaust ? If so why are there two? Also on turning the brass tap I tasted antifreeze in the block?! So do it have an internal cooling around engine ? without a radiator and another cooling going through exhaust ?

 

 

 

I will try to explain, but it may help if you look at the cooling system section of the maintenance notes on my website. To be sure I need to see all the pipework at the front of the engine.

 

This is a direct raw water cooled engine with a wet exhaust where water is sucked out of the river/canal/see, circulated through the engine and exhaust manifold, and the injected into the exhaust to allow cool the exhaust gasses a rubber hose to be used. This helps minimise resonance, and the water cools and contracts the exhaust gasses. Both effects give a quieter exhaust.

 

There are a couple of options here. The output from that brass pump flows through the horizontal pipework and into the engine, but with the thermostat closed the water cud not get into the exhaust, so a bypass is needed. If you look in the pipe running vertically up from that T you may find a spring-loaded ball valve. This is normally closed when the engine is hot, but with the thermostat closed pressure build up and opens the valve, so water can flow into the exhaust.

 

It may not have such a valve, in which case the system relies upon the Jabsco (brass) water pump having sufficient output to feed through the engine AND the bypass direct to the exhaust. In this case there may be some kind of physical restriction in the bypass pipe.

 

Hope this helps, ask if there is anything you do not understand.

 

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Nice photo.

Whats with the Solex? I always associate The BMC "A" with the lovely SU. Were the Solex only fitted to the marine engines or do they pre-date the SU?.

 

In addition to multiple minis with the A series I also had a passion for the VW air cooled engine so am horribly familiar with the Solex, the SU is a much nicer carb.

 

I think that at one time, up draft carburettors were preferred on marine engines. I don't know why, but I have a feeling it was to do with backfires and/or preventing pooling of petrol in the manifold if the float needle valve leaked. I know the carb in the photo is a side draft and I don't know why, but I suspect it is to do with Solex being the only supplier of up drafts at the time, so BMC stuck with them when the up draft was discontinued.

 

There may also have been concerns about salt water atmosphere corrosion if a light alloy card was used.

[nicjo]

Thanks Patron .. If wasnt dark would be going back boat yard for a look !! 

 

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, nicjo said:

Thanks Patron .. If wasnt dark would be going back boat yard for a look !! 

 

 

Who is Patron, you make it sound like Maigret. Patron just means the person has contributed money to the running of the forum

[nicjo]

Arh thats how it works ! hence newbie.. cheers Tony .. Im still bit confused on the water system but will look at the pipe locations tomrw or next day ... 

 

[nicjo]

I bought that space engine bmc and box from ebay.. always good to have a spare at £300!! I will pop down this week to try get my head around the cooling system.. I cracked the small brass tap on port side of engine block and tasted antifreeze, so still trying to work out the systems cooling works.. Will take some covers off and get photos of the pipework.. thanks