Todmorden Guillotine closure - what do these winding hole codes mean?

[Mac of Cygnet]

Rochdale Canal
Location: Rochdale Canal Lock 19 - Guillotine Lock
Starts At: Lock 19
Ends At: Lock 19
Up Stream Winding Hole: RD-020-001
Down Stream Winding Hole: RD-017-004

Thursday 18 January 2024 08:00 until Wednesday 24 January 2024 17:00

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Rochdale Canal
Location: Rochdale Canal Lock 19 - Guillotine Lock
Starts At: Lock 19
Ends At: Lock 19
Up Stream Winding Hole: RD-020-001
Down Stream Winding Hole: RD-017-004

Thursday 18 January 2024 08:00 until Wednesday 24 January 2024 17:00

 

Some sort of infrastructure reference used by CRT?

[Adam]

https://canalrivertrust.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapTools/index.html?appid=b46e3e0bda4a44a0be267df7674139a5

 

Type the reference in there and it will show you the location

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

20 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

Some sort of infrastructure reference used by CRT?

The letters are simply the canal:

RD Rochdale,

SU shropshire union

Ox Oxford 

and so on

the numbers I always thought were perhaps a reference to distance along the canal…dunno. 
it’s also how the enforcers record our location
 

but really no use to us needing to know by name of location where to wind,

 

is the first number the distance along the canal?

and the second the number of the asset/structure/thing within that stretch? 🤷‍♀️

30 minutes ago, Adam said:

https://canalrivertrust.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapTools/index.html?appid=b46e3e0bda4a44a0be267df7674139a5

 

Type the reference in there and it will show you the location

I’m not finding that very user friendly on my phone 

[David Mack]

The map at the bottom of the stoppage notice tells you the extent of the closure I.e. between winding holes.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Yes, 

but it would be interesting to know how they work out their reference numbers. 

could be helpful when playing dodge with the enforcers/spotters when bridge hopping. 

[ditchcrawler]

24 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

is the first number the distance along the canal?

and the second the number of the asset/structure/thing within that stretch? 🤷‍♀️

I’m not finding that very user friendly on my phone 

Not bad on the computer 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Not bad on the computer 

I’ll have a ganders on me iPad later then, see if that’s any better than phone. 

 

[Ian Mac]

First of all I'm on the case for them sending out a totally useless stoppage notice. I am fighting to get stoppage notices made for boaters and other users not for internal use.
As to the references - a lot of the stoppage notice is auto generated using the details in the C&RT database. The database as I understand it breaks the whole system down into 25m chunks, with structures added in, in high detail so a lock chamber consists of a fore bay, head gates, chamber tail gates, and tail bay. There is huge amount of data in the system, as it does not just cover the structures but also the plants growing, state of the channel, and of the towpath historic structures, neighbours, water inlets and draw off, etc., etc.
If you think of it as an excel spread sheet and each 25m section as a row, maybe that will help you envisage it.
Then each object within the 1 kilometre length has a sequence number (not necessarily in order!) so RD-017-004 is item 4 in  the 17km from the start of the canal, which the system knows is a winding hole. Note, only maintained wnding holes are listed in the C&RT database as such, whereas Nicholson's, etc show a  lot of other places where you can turn your boats, as well, which may well be private, or not maintained.
Hope that helps. PS it does lead to interesting anomalies in places such as the BCN were the historic names and measurements are used, and not those which we all use, again something I'm attempting to improve.
So this is where your help would be useful in this case. The trust had to add the Rochdale into their system when they took it over from the waterways trust, many bits of detail are missing as they did not get the detailed historic records which they have for many other waterways. So for these two winding holes, they will not have names, so just the database identifier has be used.
What should they be called.

My starter for 10

Up Stream Winding Hole: RD-020-001 - Wallsden Pool WH above lock 29

Down Stream Winding Hole: RD-017-004 - Todmoreden Town WH below lock 19

--

cheers IAn MAc

[dmr]

The winding hole situation on the Rochdale is not good so it could well be down to a lack of records. Neither of these two locations in your post are signed as winding holes. The slightly wider bit below lock 19 is a popular winding hole, especially with the Shire Cruisers hire boats coming up from Sowerby. But its tight, i'm not even sure that a 57 foot boat can get round. More importantly it has mooring bollards right opposite so it is quite legitimate for it to be blocked by moored boats.

The better spot is just below Baltimore marina and a full length boat can turn there if it hits the right spot, but again its not signed and boats do sometimes moor opposite.

The wide bit at Nip Square (Walsden Pool?) is good but again not signed, but its so big that a sign is not really needed, but there are a couple of other spots that look pretty good but are heavily silted.

The dry dock entrance in Hebden Bridge is quite good, there was a "no mooring" sign opposite but thats gone, and boats moored in the drydock entrance can make turning difficult. After that its a case of booking the deep lock and turning at the Calder and Hebble junction.

 

Below lock 33 is a great spot but again not signed and again sometimes blocked with a moored boat.

As we have a 70+ foot boat we are a bit semsitive to these things 😀. I have thought about trying to get CRT to improve things, but cynically I fear they might put a lot of effort into a "blue signing oppurtunity" and I would rather see the time and money going into maintanance.

 

But to answer your question:

  RD-020-001 Nip Square Wide

  RD-017-004 Golden Lion Bridge

[Jim Riley]

On 12/01/2024 at 23:01, dmr said:

The winding hole situation on the Rochdale is not good so it could well be down to a lack of records. Neither of these two locations in your post are signed as winding holes. The slightly wider bit below lock 19 is a popular winding hole, especially with the Shire Cruisers hire boats coming up from Sowerby. But its tight, i'm not even sure that a 57 foot boat can get round. More importantly it has mooring bollards right opposite so it is quite legitimate for it to be blocked by moored boats.

The better spot is just below Baltimore marina and a full length boat can turn there if it hits the right spot, but again its not signed and boats do sometimes moor opposite.

The wide bit at Nip Square (Walsden Pool?) is good but again not signed, but its so big that a sign is not really needed, but there are a couple of other spots that look pretty good but are heavily silted.

The dry dock entrance in Hebden Bridge is quite good, there was a "no mooring" sign opposite but thats gone, and boats moored in the drydock entrance can make turning difficult. After that its a case of booking the deep lock and turning at the Calder and Hebble junction.

 

Below lock 33 is a great spot but again not signed and again sometimes blocked with a moored boat.

As we have a 70+ foot boat we are a bit semsitive to these things 😀. I have thought about trying to get CRT to improve things, but cynically I fear they might put a lot of effort into a "blue signing oppurtunity" and I would rather see the time and money going into maintanance.

 

But to answer your question:

  RD-020-001 Nip Square Wide

  RD-017-004 Golden Lion Bridge

Would 35/36 pound above you be useable if it was dredged? 

[dmr]

Have seen a few boats turn there, certainly good for 57 foot as long as the pound is full. Google Earth suggests a 70 footer just might get round and it looks more likely since the tree was removed. Will give it a go next time we go up that way. I think the far bank is the natural bed of the canal rather than silt so should not be dredged, but we could maybe get a few rocks out.

Right above lock 39 is another likely spot, about a foot short for us but mostly due to rocks.

 

Really shallow 57 footers can turn somewhere below lock 34 but its heavily silted so no hope for us, we struggle just to get through.