BSS compliance - breather pipes meeting BS7840 specification

[pedroinlondon]

Hi all

 

I've bought a decommissioned enclosed life boat, which I'm told will require a few changes and additions to be compliant with the canal world/BSS exam.

The changes I am aware of are "fuel pipe change", "external fuel tank filler" and "breather pipes" to meet BS7840 specification.

The fuel pipe change and filler I think I understand. These enclosed life boat tanks are in the cabin and an external filling hole needs to be fitted, and the fuel hose must be compliant to the BS spec above.

 

But what are breather pipes, and how does one fit them and to what?

Tips with photos would be appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

Edited January 11 by pedroinlondon

[Ewan123]

8 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Hi all

 

I've bought a decommissioned enclosed life boat, which I'm told will require a few changes and additions to be compliant with the canal world/BSS exam.

The changes I am aware of are "fuel pipe change", "external fuel tank filler" and "breather pipes" to meet BS7840 specification.

The fuel pipe change and filler I think I understand. These enclosed life boat tanks are in the cabin and an external filling hole needs to be fitted, and the fuel hose must be compliant to the BS spec above.

 

But what are breather pipes, and how does one fit them and to what?

Tips with photos would be appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

Who told you about the required changes/additions? I would ask them, (if they know what they're talking about) they should be able to give you a good answer.

[David Mack]

The fuel tank needs a vent pipe which runs from the top of the tank to the outside air,and which terminates above the tank filler level. This pipe allows air out when the tank is filled and back in as fuel is consumed. Details of what is required are on the BSS checklist.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

The changes I am aware of are "fuel pipe change", "external fuel tank filler" and "breather pipes" to meet BS7840 specification.

 

This is an interesting one. Why do you think you need to comply with BS7840? Do we even still have BSs nowadays?

 

Is it to do with RCR compliance? I'm not sure RCR compliance is necessary when bringing an old boat onto the UK canal system, if RCR regs did not apply to it in its younger days, which they probably didn't if it was on a ship or drilling platform.

 

 

[BWM]

You may need to ask someone who specialises in historic/unusual craft. My former cargo carrying narrow boat has tanks with internal fillers and vents, and being built that way is exempt - how that translates to yours, I don't know the answer. 

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This is an interesting one. Why do you think you need to comply with BS7840? Do we even still have BSs nowadays?

 

Is it to do with RCR compliance? I'm not sure RCR compliance is necessary when bringing an old boat onto the UK canal system, if RCR regs did not apply to it in its younger days, which they probably didn't if it was on a ship or drilling platform.

 

 

 

The BSS requires fuel hoses to ..........................

 

 

Is the material of the fuel filling line suitable and in good condition? R

 

Check the material and condition of fuel filling lines which can be seen or reached.

Check the markings on any fuel filling hose. Fuel filling lines must not show signs of fuel leaks, damage or deterioration.

Fuel filling hose must be marked as suitable for the fuel in use or supported by an appropriate declaration.

 

Applicability – diesel filling hose in good condition may be accepted without marking or declaration, provided it can be examined over its entire length.

Applicability- hoses marked ISO 7840, ISO 8469, ISO 15540, SAE J 1527, DIN 4798 or RINA DIP/66/96 may be accepted as being suitable for use with petrol or diesel.

Applicability – in cases where the filling hose is suitably marked, enough of the hose must be accessed in order that the Examiner can make a reasonable assessment as to its general condition.

 

And, there are 6 sub-sections on the fuel vent hose, type, size etc etc etc.

[David Mack]

40 minutes ago, BWM said:

You may need to ask someone who specialises in historic/unusual craft. My former cargo carrying narrow boat has tanks with internal fillers and vents, and being built that way is exempt - how that translates to yours, I don't know the answer. 

It doesn't. The exemption is limited to historical firmer working canal craft, and doesn't apply to a relatively new lifeboat, now being refurbished as a canal boat.

I can see that for a lifeboat, having the filler and vent on the exterior, exposed to the wind and waves, would be a bad idea. The reverse is true on the canal.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Is it to do with RCR compliance? I'm not sure RCR compliance is necessary when bringing an old boat onto the UK canal system, if RCR regs did not apply to it in its younger days, which they probably didn't if it was on a ship or drilling platform.

 

 

Thinking about it - it certainly wouldn't have been buit to RCR compliance as it was not a 'Recreational' craft.

 

However, if it is now being converted to a 'recreational craft', I would suggest that it falls under the same section of the RCR as any imported boat of any age, (from say the USA) which has not been built to RCR standards - that being the case (and you will no doubt argue "just do it and dont worry about it") it is subject to a PCA, cost ~£2000-£3000 assuming it is compliant, if not it would need all of the failure points rectifying at additional cost.

[magnetman]

Get a BSS inspector to check it. You then get two months to sort out anything which fails the inspection. 

 

Seems the easiest way and a good BSS inspector will do a retest later and just charge for transport costs. 

 

 

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

It doesn't. The exemption is limited to historical firmer working canal craft, and doesn't apply to a relatively new lifeboat, now being refurbished as a canal boat.

I can see that for a lifeboat, having the filler and vent on the exterior, exposed to the wind and waves, would be a bad idea. The reverse is true on the canal.

Yes and of course as the enclosed lifeboat is designed to only be used once the fueling arrangement is irrelevant.

 

It will have enough fuel on board to do the required job in an emergency. If an emergency occurs the lifeboat will be replaced afterwards rather than put back into service. 

 

The only function is to save lives in an emergency. 

 

 

 

That is why it is called a lifeboat. 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It will have enough fuel on board to do the required job in an emergency. If an emergency occurs the lifeboat will be replaced afterwards rather than put back into service. 

 

Surely flogging them to would-be canal boaters rather than destroying them is 'putting them back into service'. Albeit a different type of service!

 

 

But whatever, isn't the OP just another of Liquid Molly's doppels?

 

 

[David Mack]

56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thinking about it - it certainly wouldn't have been buit to RCR compliance as it was not a 'Recreational' craft.

 

However, if it is now being converted to a 'recreational craft', I would suggest that it falls under the same section of the RCR as any imported boat of any age, (from say the USA) which has not been built to RCR standards - that being the case (and you will no doubt argue "just do it and dont worry about it") it is subject to a PCA, cost ~£2000-£3000 assuming it is compliant, if not it would need all of the failure points rectifying at additional cost.

If it was already in the UK as a lifeboat, and therefore not imported, does a simple change of use to recreational trigger a need for RCD compliance and PCA if there has been no major change?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If it was already in the UK as a lifeboat, and therefore not imported, does a simple change of use to recreational trigger a need for RCD compliance and PCA if there has been no major change?

 

 

Well as it would not be compliant in its original guise I'm pretty sure it would. I'm sure I remember reading something similar on the RSG Comitee decisions - I'll try and find it.

[magnetman]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Surely flogging them to would-be canal boaters rather than destroying them is 'putting them back into service'. 

Not really. All they arrr doing is selling an object stored on land. I doubt they are concerned with what the buyer then does with it. They could be putting it in a garden to grow some flowers. 

 

Its quite a clever way to get rid of fibreglass which is rather an awkward material to deal with. If someone will pay you and take it away something is going right. 

 

 

 

 

Cutting up and sending to landfill is going to be a lot of hassle. 

 

 

I wonder when discussions will be had about the rather obvious non sustainable nature of GRP Boats. 

 

Ideally Boats should be made of recyclable materials like metal or wood. 

 

Can we burn the GRP in power stations ?

Edited January 11 by magnetman

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Its quite a clever way to get rid of fibreglass which is rather an awkward material to deal with. If someone will pay you and take it away something is going right. 

 

I think its pretty irresponsible, not clever.

 

Precisely because its so awkward, they should dispose of the redundant boats in an environmentally sound manner, not flog them off to any Tom Dick or Harry who will probably eventually abandon them as lost causes. 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

I think its pretty irresponsible, not clever.

 

Precisely because its so awkward, they should dispose of the redundant boats in an environmentally sound manner, not flog them off to any Tom Dick or Harry who will probably eventually abandon them as lost causes. 

 

 

 

I meant clever from a business point of view. Maybe I should have used the word 'shrewd'. 

 

I agree with your sentiments. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

If it was already in the UK as a lifeboat, and therefore not imported, does a simple change of use to recreational trigger a need for RCD compliance and PCA if there has been no major change?

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well as it would not be compliant in its original guise I'm pretty sure it would. I'm sure I remember reading something similar on the RSG Comitee decisions - I'll try and find it.

 

 

I cannot find the example I was thinking of but something which may 'comparable' :

It was not made as an RCD/RCR boat but when it is modified it fall within the directive & it becomes subject to the RCD/RCR

 

If a canoe (which is RCD / RCR exempt) is fitted with a form of propulsion (engine or electric motor) it them becomes subject to the RCR/RCR

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I also noticed is that if (say) a petrol engine is on the RCD 'approved list' and it is then changed to run on LPG, it must be re-submitted for emission & noise testing and approval before it can be used.

Edited January 11 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If a canoe (which is RCD / RCR exempt) is fitted with a form of propulsion (engine or electric motor) it them becomes subject to the RCR/RCR

 

Gods teeth does this mean my floating electric beer drinking platform needs to be examined? 

 

I'm so shocked. Life will never be the same again. 

 

To be fair it is not a canoe it is a trainee rowing shell with an electric motor on the back. Maybe it will be okay. 

 

 

[matty40s]

7 hours ago, pedroinlondon said:

Hi all

 

I've bought a decommissioned enclosed life boat, which I'm told will require a few changes and additions to be compliant with the canal world/BSS exam.

The changes I am aware of are "fuel pipe change", "external fuel tank filler" and "breather pipes" to meet BS7840 specification.

The fuel pipe change and filler I think I understand. These enclosed life boat tanks are in the cabin and an external filling hole needs to be fitted, and the fuel hose must be compliant to the BS spec above.

 

But what are breather pipes, and how does one fit them and to what?

Tips with photos would be appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

Ok, most of the above arguments are typical between the guys involved.

Basically, your fuel tank should have 2 externally fitted pipes other than the fuel to engine/diesel heater supply..., a filler, and a breather.

These can either be flexible, or solid piping.

If flexible, both the tank supply point, and the external fitting point must be visible and inspectable for sureness. ie, the examiner must be able to access the internal fittings to make sure they are sound and not perished.

The breather pipe must be fitted to the exterior with an air vent, which must have anti flash gauze fitted to those.

[Momac]

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

I can see that for a lifeboat, having the filler and vent on the exterior, exposed to the wind and waves, would be a bad idea. The reverse is true on the canal.

It could be that a ships lifeboat has no external fuel filler  but this may be because of forces associated with the launch of the lifeboat rather than wind and waves. Seagoing pleasure craft have external fuel fillers and breathers 

 

[matty40s]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Gods teeth does this mean my floating electric beer drinking platform needs to be examined? 

 

I'm so shocked. Life will never be the same again. 

 

To be fair it is not a canoe it is a trainee rowing shell with an electric motor on the back. Maybe it will be okay. 

 

 

Just dont take it out midweek if a CRT bomb staff is going to happen.

[magnetman]

It is true that diesel supply lines if flexible need to have ISO 7840 printed onto them. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Just dont take it out midweek if a CRT bomb staff is going to happen.

 

It is on the Thames so it currently free of the CRT problem. 

 

I'm hoping the lock keepers are not aware of the RCR. I really would not want to engage with the RCR in either of its guises. They might nick the motor and repaint it !

 

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It is true that diesel supply lines if flexible need to have ISO 7840 printed onto them. 

 

 

Yes I  believe they do 

[magnetman]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It could be that a ships lifeboat has no external fuel filler  but this may be because of forces associated with the launch of the lifeboat rather than wind and waves. Seagoing pleasure craft have external fuel fillers and breathers 

 

I don't think refuelling is at the top of the agenda with these craft. 

[matty40s]

Having seen the beer, I'm not sure it will be shipped out to the Houthi anytime soon, however many boats they lose in the next few days....

[magnetman]

 

It's basically a "I don't want to die" situation rather than yachting . 

 

 

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

Having seen the beer, I'm not sure it will be shipped out to the Houthi anytime soon, however many boats they lose in the next few days....

 

Northeast passage seems to be looking more interesting, Maybe Putin knows what he is doing.