Proposed new accessible electric narrowboat.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

I doubt it will be free, but it might be a bargain. I wonder where any money from selling it will go, since I assume the builders were paid by Government funding?

I imagine it will go to the Company that started the project and maybe used by the man in charge😂

  I don’t think the boat is going to be sold, maybe kept by the company for future R&R and that’s not Research and Development😂😂

Edited December 24, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I imagine it will go to the Company that started the project and maybe used by the man in charge😂

Hope he gets charged with insult a battery. Sorry just doing my Christmas cracker jokes. Wouldn't make a living from it. 🎄🤶🎅🌲😂

Just now, Jon57 said:

Hope he gets charged with insult and battery. Sorry just doing my Christmas cracker jokes. Wouldn't make a living from it. 🎄🤶🎅🌲😂

 

[magnetman]

Did you mean a salty battery? 

 

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/12/13/significant-breakthrough-this-new-sea-salt-battery-has-4-times-the-capacity-of-lithium

[IanD]

48 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I imagine it will go to the Company that started the project and maybe used by the man in charge😂

  I don’t think the boat is going to be sold, maybe kept by the company for future R&R and that’s not Research and Development😂😂

I don't think the canals around Sheffield are especially conducive to rest and recuperation... 😉

 

39 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Did you mean a salty battery? 

 

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/12/13/significant-breakthrough-this-new-sea-salt-battery-has-4-times-the-capacity-of-lithium

There's a lot of confusion in that article -- high-density molten salt (sodium-sulphur or otherwise) are not exactly compatible with boats and cats, "molten" should be a clue, for the same reason "room-temperature" lifetime isn't relevent, and they certainly don't have 4x the energy density of lithium when you include the case and things needed to keep them molten.

 

Batteries using sodium instead of lithium are already starting to appear on the market, they're cheaper and sodium supply is unlimited but they're also bigger and heavier than lithium cells.

 

So another badly-written publicity puff piece about yet another "battery breakthrough" that isn't... 😞

Edited December 24, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

It was a play on words 'assault and battery' 

[Jon57]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

It was a play on words 'assault and battery' 

Humour bypass probably I figure. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't think the canals around Sheffield are especially conducive to rest and recuperation... 😉

Probably end up Oxfordshire way.

[magnetman]

Upper Thames is alright. Don't come too far down looking for peaceful spaces as there are wreckless bank managers around. 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It was a play on words 'assault and battery' 

Ho Ho Ho, I realised that. Didn't make the article any less crap, though... 😉

Edited December 24, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Agreed. It was just pulled out randomly. I know there is a lot of nonsense in this subject. 

 

My favourite was the supercaps capacitor based energy storage system. They had lots of little LTO cells but the bloke was good at making people think they were capacitors. 

 

KiloWatt Labs. Hilarious and some australians bought them. 

 

 

 

 

People did think they were capacitors because of the packaging. The company claimed to have solved the capacitor problem and have an energy storage unit which would recharge a million times. 

 

A real joke. Apparently Australia is a big market and loads of scams around. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Matt Wardman said:

Can I wish everyone on this thread a Happy Christmas.

 

I enjoy thinking around the edges of the box, or slightly out of it, and have really enjoyed all the comments.

 

Me too, I had lots of ideas for my boat which turned out to be impractical when confronted with narrowboat realities -- but also several which did work out well, and I'm pleased with the end result 🙂

 

If you do go ahead I'm sure you'll go through the same process, but you might also get a lot of useful advice from people on here who've already done this -- even if a lot of it is explaining why something you think is a good idea is pointless or won't work... 😉

 

Be aware that there's a pretty strong "anti-modern-technology/the-old-ways-were-better" bunch on here as well as a smaller "boundless-optimism-tech-can-fix-everything" one, and neither is always right -- or wrong... 😉

Edited December 24, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

I would say 'Be pleased..." rather than 'Be aware...'.

 

It would be a bit boring if everyone had exactly the same view and ideas ! 

[IanD]

Just now, magnetman said:

I would say 'Be pleased..." rather than 'Be aware...'.

 

It would be a bit boring if everyone had exactly the same view and ideas ! 

Absolutely -- I was just pointing out that he'll get a lot of advice, some of it good and correct, some of it poor and wrong, and it's not always easy to tell which is which... 😉

[Ronaldo47]

The government's Green Marine document, which only addresses sea-going (marine!) craft and says nothing about inland waterways, other than navigations used by sea-going craft, only considers electric propulsion to be suitable for a limited number of vessels, such as short-distance ferries that can be recharged between trips when in dock.  

 

It seems to put its faith in new, undiscovered or yet-to-be-developed  technologies such as Ammonia,  for use in the type of vessel where storage space for fuel is not going to be a problem, and really only considers vessels that travel between ports where they can refuel.

 

I very much doubt that any proper  consideration has been made by government  to inland waterways, the type of journeys made by canal boats (in particular, those with nothing corresponding with a home port), or the physical contraints affecting small vessels such as canal boats that mostly do not go from port to port like marine vessels and do not have enough space for low-energy-density fuel to provide a range equivalent to diesel . 

 

Politicians do tend to make decisions based on policy first, and only consider the details of how to implement it  afterwards, especially where the implementation and its cost will be the responsibility of someone else well after the next general election. When I was in the Civil Service, a session in one of the  Civil Service College courses I was sent on,  highlighted numerous examples of this practice and the consequential financial  costs to the taxpayer.  

 

Edit:

 

P.S. 

Have the government published a  a document corresponding to the Green Marine one that does address the inland waterways ? I haven't heard anyone mention such a thing.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ronaldo47
edited for conciseness, typos, and PS

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The government's Green Marine document, which only addresses sea-going (marine!) craft and says nothing about inland waterways, other than navigations used by sea-going craft, only considers electric propulsion to be suitable for a limited number of vessels, such as short-distance ferries that can be recharged between trips when in dock.  

 

It seems to put its faith in new, undiscovered or yet-to-be-developed  technologies such as Ammonia,  for use in the type of vessel where storage space for fuel is not going to be a problem, and really only considers vessels that travel between ports where they can refuel.

 

I very much doubt that any proper  consideration has been made by government  to inland waterways, the type of journeys made by canal boats (in particular, those with nothing corresponding with a home port), or the physical contraints affecting small vessels such as canal boats that mostly do not go from port to port like marine vessels and do not have enough space for low-energy-density fuel to provide a range equivalent to diesel . 

 

Politicians do tend to make decisions based on policy first, and only consider the details of how to implement it  afterwards, especially where the implementation and its cost will be the responsibility of someone else well after the next general election. When I was in the Civil Service, a session in one of the  Civil Service College courses I was sent on,  highlighted numerous examples of this practice and the consequential financial  costs to the taxpayer.  

 

Edit:

 

P.S. 

Have the government published a  a document corresponding to the Green Marine one that does address the inland waterways ? I haven't heard anyone mention such a thing.

I don't think electric canal boats would need "a range equivalent to diesel", they need a range long enough that charging isn't needed more often than other things like water filling/toilet emptying -- which is rather less. Batteries -- apart from cost -- aren't the problem, charging points are.

 

Electrifying the canals isn't even on the government's radar, "green marine" is because -- like cars -- ships emit huge quantities of CO2. Boats on inland waterways probably emit 1000x less than either so they don't care... 😞

Edited December 24, 2023 by IanD

[peterboat]

49 minutes ago, IanD said:

I don't think electric canal boats would need "a range equivalent to diesel", they need a range long enough that charging isn't needed more often than other things like water filling/toilet emptying -- which is rather less. Batteries -- apart from cost -- aren't the problem, charging points are.

 

Electrifying the canals isn't even on the government's radar, "green marine" is because -- like cars -- ships emit huge quantities of CO2. Boats on inland waterways probably emit 1000x less than either so they don't care... 😞

I do wonder if it will be one of those ouch moments? Suddenly diesel extremely expensive, banned from towns and cities, so the few of us that have done something have the waterways to ourselves for a few months, that's until they get closed down and turned into linear boat housing estates!

[magnetman]

I think Diesel will get cheaper if demand reduces. The nodding donkey pimps are not going to suddenly stop. 

 

 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I think Diesel will get cheaper if demand reduces. The nodding donkey pimps are not going to suddenly stop. 

 

 

Doubt it, refineries will close down and demand for the bit of diesel left will shoot through the roof! It will be like Mad Max you will be killing each other for the juice 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[magnetman]

Not me as I'll be sailing around the world in a sloop once it starts getting dodgy. 

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Not me as I'll be sailing around the world in a sloop once it starts getting dodgy. 

I have sailed around the world in a sloop and can assure you its very dodgy, dangerous and bloody expensive!

Edited December 24, 2023 by peterboat

[magnetman]

Yes but less likelihood of Mad Max scenarios? 

 

I imagine it is also incredibly boring. 

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Matt Wardman said:

 It needs to be economic for a marina or mooring to supply sufficient power to the relevant pontoons, and for nb owners to build or adapt boats to be able to accept the amount of current. I could see one pontoon, with the extra infra. to be reserved for electric-propulsion boats, for example, or for a "charging mooring" to be set up with high-current capability - for residents boats wanting a quick charge, or for visitors.

That's why I think what happens will be patchy and depend on the economics of each area / location.

I don't think that is whats required, most boats in marinas stay there for several days. weeks. months, years at a time, they don't need fast charging on their berths. Its the boats that are out cruising that require the facility to recharge before continuing on their travels.

[magnetman]

 

Thats why using other batteries would work. 

They can upload power through very short conductors very rapidly. 

 

Grid connection could be much smaller and let the batteries take the load. There is a technical name for this forgot what it is. 

 

Expensive. 

 

 

 

No overnight mooring at charging stations. After all people don't stay the night at the Diesel pump. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes but less likelihood of Mad Max scenarios? 

 

I imagine it is also incredibly boring. 

Don’t you mean that water based “Mad Max” flop “Waterworld” ⛵️⛵️

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Thats why using other batteries would work. 

They can upload power through very short conductors very rapidly. 

 

Grid connection could be much smaller and let the batteries take the load. There is a technical name for this forgot what it is. 

 

Expensive. 

 

 

 

No overnight mooring at charging stations. After all people don't stay the night at the Diesel pump. 

Expensive is one side if it, big issues with safety and certification of installations both on land and boat is another. But the real killer is that it's not really needed...

 

Ultra-fast chargers (>100kW) handle currents of many hundreds of amps at 400V or 800V DC nowadays, the equipment to do this is expensive but also needs a lot of safety precautions, and DIY installations are pretty much banned -- EVs also need extensive certification and mechanics need special training.

 

It's needed when EVs on long journeys need to charge rapidly. It's difficult to see why canal boats need it when they can charge up overnight much more cheaply and easily, with simple and widely available 48V systems, and without the need for massive expensive shoreside batteries and chargers. Similar to the case for home charging of EVs which is what most owners do...