Wood burning and health

[Alan de Enfield]

There has been just one prosecution and three fines handed out for people using banned wood-burning stoves in England, data has revealed.

Despite more than 10,000 complaints about wood being burned in populated areas since January 2022, local councils have not been enforcing the government’s “tough new restrictions” on stoves. Two-thirds of these complaints were not followed up at, and only a handful led to any action.

 

In smoke-control areas, households can only burn unauthorised fuels, such as wood, on appliances that are rigorously tested to demonstrate low-smoke emissions. Fines of up to £300 and criminal prosecutions, which could result in fines of up to £5,000, can be brought under the Environment Act 2021.

 

English councils have issued just three fines under tighter wood burner rules (msn.com)

[noddyboater]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

The person living in a house on the side of the canal with a smoky boat just a few feet from their doors and windows has a ‘right’ to breath clean air.  Unfortunately in an overcrowded environment one persons ‘freedoms’ forces another to suffer.  That’s why boats were included, too many selfish people enforcing their rights without regard to the consequences to others.

Luckily I'm not in a smoke control area but I always keep check on the wind direction when loading the fires up. 

If it's blowing to my lovely neighbours on the West it's smokeless ovoids and hardwood.

To the East and it's bank em up with the proper black stuff - stinkier the better, cos he's a prize Tw@t.

It's not hard to be considerate.

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There has been just one prosecution and three fines handed out for people using banned wood-burning stoves in England, data has revealed.

Despite more than 10,000 complaints about wood being burned in populated areas since January 2022, local councils have not been enforcing the government’s “tough new restrictions” on stoves. Two-thirds of these complaints were not followed up at, and only a handful led to any action.

 

In smoke-control areas, households can only burn unauthorised fuels, such as wood, on appliances that are rigorously tested to demonstrate low-smoke emissions. Fines of up to £300 and criminal prosecutions, which could result in fines of up to £5,000, can be brought under the Environment Act 2021.

 

English councils have issued just three fines under tighter wood burner rules (msn.com)

 

Isn't it likely that this is because wood-burning stoves *are* currently allowed so long as they're DEFRA approved, so the authorities have to not only prove that wood is being burned but also check what type of stove it's being burned in?

 

If a blanket ban on woodburning in urban areas is brought in then detection/prosecution will be a lot easier, just like it is for non-smokeless fuel burning.

 

Mind you, councils still probably won't have the resources to do this... 😞

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Isn't it likely that this is because wood-burning stoves *are* currently allowed so long as they're DEFRA approved,

 

So as 2/3rd the of the complaints are not followed up, how do you know that 'its likely' all of them were using compliant stoves?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There has been just one prosecution and three fines handed out for people using banned wood-burning stoves in England, data has revealed.

Despite more than 10,000 complaints about wood being burned in populated areas since January 2022, local councils have not been enforcing the government’s “tough new restrictions” on stoves. Two-thirds of these complaints were not followed up at, and only a handful led to any action.

 

In smoke-control areas, households can only burn unauthorised fuels, such as wood, on appliances that are rigorously tested to demonstrate low-smoke emissions. Fines of up to £300 and criminal prosecutions, which could result in fines of up to £5,000, can be brought under the Environment Act 2021.

 

English councils have issued just three fines under tighter wood burner rules (msn.com)

 

I suspect that lots of those complaints originate from people who witness visible smoke from a chimney or flue and assume that is a valid complaint. Our stove emits visible smoke when lighting despite using ready to burn kindling and fire lighters that are suitable for use in smoke control areas. The stove is also approved by DEFRA for burning wood in smoke control areas.

 

We have a couple of 'curtain twitching type' neighbours and would fully expect them to make a complaint if indeed they haven't already.

 

I would welcome the council to come and see what we burn and what we burn it on.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So as 2/3rd the of the complaints are not followed up, how do you know that 'its likely' all of them were using compliant stoves?

That's not what I said, please read again 😉

[magnetman]

11 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

I suspect that lots of those complaints originate from people who witness visible smoke from a chimney or flue and assume that is a valid complaint. Our stove emits visible smoke when lighting despite using ready to burn kindling and fire lighters that are suitable for use in smoke control areas. The stove is also approved by DEFRA for burning wood in smoke control areas.

 

We have a couple of 'curtain twitching type' neighbours and would fully expect them to make a complaint if indeed they haven't already.

 

I would welcome the council to come and see what we burn and what we burn it on.

 

Yes the 'warming up' phase of a wood burning stove is interesting. I wonder how many times you are allowed to light the fire per day.

 

Without the temperature in the Boat / House being logged constantly I don't see how it would be possible to prove that the smoke was emitted during a startting up phase or during normal use.

 

Suspect IanD is right and a blanket ban will come in.

 

It would be slightly ironic if a blanket ban came in at the same time as a ban on wood burning because if one can not burn wood a blanket is a handy thing to have!

 

 

I hope they don't ban Dunlopillo wool blankets.

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

but also check what type of stove it's being burned in?

But surely to know if they are using an approved stove it would be necessary to look at it, or are they thinking that, as it is the law, 'its 'likely the stoves are approved'?

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But surely to know if they are using an approved stove it would be necessary to look at it, or are they thinking that, as it is the law, 'its 'likely the stoves are approved'?

 

That's what I said -- they'd either have to inspect the stove, or ask the householder to provide proof that it's DEFRA-approved, and this would waste a lot of time and effort on the ones that are approved.

 

If woodburning is banned then -- like burning non-smokeless fuel -- all they have to do is prove what was being burned, which is easier and cheaper to do because *all* woodburners will be guilty...

 

There are several reasons for all this kerfuffle and the likely ban; the first is the huge rise in the number of "lifestyle" woodburners in urban areas, the second is the recent realisation about just how bad PM2.5 pollution is for people's health, and the third is the girl whose death was ruled by the coroner to be caused by pollution -- which means the government are scared they'll be sued for massive damages if they don't do something to reduce urban pollution levels.

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Yes the 'warming up' phase of a wood burning stove is interesting. I wonder how many times you are allowed to light the fire per day.

 

Without the temperature in the Boat / House being logged constantly I don't see how it would be possible to prove that the smoke was emitted during a startting up phase or during normal use.

 

Suspect IanD is right and a blanket ban will come in.

 

It would be slightly ironic if a blanket ban came in at the same time as a ban on wood burning because if one can not burn wood a blanket is a handy thing to have!

 

 

I hope they don't ban Dunlopillo wool blankets.

 

I think a ban on existing wood burning stoves is very unlikely.

 

I think what could happen is a ban on new installs from a given date at some point in the future. A bit like the ban on the sale of ICE vehicles. 

 

From a given date only stoves that can burn smokeless solid fuel will be allowed. (Which of course will eventually be completely banned given the agreement at COP., cough).

[magnetman]

Or maybe strict enforcement on emission of smoke regardless what the appliance actually is.

 

It seems to be a smoke story here. OK so at the moment one can pay extra and get a DEFRA approved appliance but this is still capable of burning dirty or damp wood or even house coal. Just because it is approved by a .gov body does not mean it is incapable of burning troublesome fuels.

 

I'm sure if push came to shove one can burn sliced up road cones, dessicated rodents and tyres cut up with a slitting disc in a DEFRA stove.

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Or maybe strict enforcement on emission of smoke regardless what the appliance actually is.

 

It seems to be a smoke story here. OK so at the moment one can pay extra and get a DEFRA approved appliance but this is still capable of burning dirty or damp wood or even house coal. Just because it is approved by a .gov body does not mean it is incapable of burning troublesome fuels.

 

I'm sure if push came to shove one can burn sliced up road cones, dessicated rodents and tyres cut up with a slitting disc in a DEFRA stove.

 

 

 

It's not a smoke problem, PM2.5 particles are invisible to the naked eye (no smoke) but are probably the most dangerous of all the pollutants generated by burning stuff.

 

How to get emissions of them down is another issue, but banning woodburning stoves -- even DEFRA-approved ones -- which generate the majority of them in urban areas (3x what road transport does) would be a very good start.

Edited December 18, 2023 by IanD

[frangar]

Of course the real reason for banning stoves is that the general public can gather free fuel and governments hate things they can’t control and tax. 
 

I really do believe it’s more about control than pollution. 

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It's not a smoke problem, PM2.5 particles are invisible to the naked eye (no smoke) but are probably the most dangerous of all the pollutants generated by burning stuff.

 

How to get emissions of them down is another issue, but banning woodburning stoves -- even DEFRA-approved ones -- which generate the majority of them in urban areas (3x what road transport does) would be a very good start.

It is a smoke problem according to laws which have been passeed because they refer to smoke.

 

 

Thats why it is called a 'smoke control order'.

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

Of course the real reason for banning stoves is that the general public can gather free fuel and governments hate things they can’t control and tax. 
 

I really do believe it’s more about control than pollution. 

 

 

Definitely.

 

A gradual move towards enslavement is always on the cards. If everyone could be forced to used electric for everything then buy shares in electricity companies.

 

Its not only a conspiracy theory there is also the psychological impact of forcibly removing people's basic rights.

 

Surely it must be a right to heat your living space.

 

Its a bit covidesque. By not wearing a face mask you are killing other people.

 

If this was in fact true there would not be so many humans about. Humans have always burned things and they never managed to become extinct in fact quite the opposite.

 

There is a mix of capitalism and fear here which is not a new story.

 

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Or maybe strict enforcement on emission of smoke regardless what the appliance actually is.

 

It seems to be a smoke story here. OK so at the moment one can pay extra and get a DEFRA approved appliance but this is still capable of burning dirty or damp wood or even house coal. Just because it is approved by a .gov body does not mean it is incapable of burning troublesome fuels.

 

I'm sure if push came to shove one can burn sliced up road cones, dessicated rodents and tyres cut up with a slitting disc in a DEFRA stove.

 

 

 

This is true.

 

Charnwood make it clear that ours is only compliant if it is used in accordance with the instructions, which include not burning unseasoned wood.

 

Road cones aren't specifically mentioned as a no no but I'm pretty sure that would wreck the compliance too. As well as making a hell of a mess of your stove and flue.

[magnetman]

Cones can work ok if the fire is burning hot enough and you also use some coal.

 

There is potential for flue issues but careful planning and judicious use can help reduce problems in this regard.

[Ronaldo47]

On 17/12/2023 at 11:47, Jerra said:

That is going to be a problem with most central heating as those things we call radiators are actually mainly giving heat by convection.  Of course they radiate heat but most of the heating of a room is by convection.  You need to be very close to a radiator to feel a lot of heat.

Mum's armchair was right next to the radiator, and so did receive its radiant heat. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Ronaldo47

[Jerra]

29 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Mum's armchair was right next to the radiator, and so did receive its radiant heat. 

However as I mentioned most are nowhere near radiators, so radiant heat is a problem.  Our radiators are on, if I hold my hand 15 to 20cm away both sides i.e. the one towards the radiator and the one away feel the same temperature.  You really do have to be close to get much radiant heat.

[magnetman]

Those old electric bar fires were brilliant.

 

I had one on one of the Boats it was a work of art. Bought it on fleabay for about £20. Standard 1kW element and a lovely copper backing.

 

Trouble is one day a piece of clothing fell on it accidentally, caught fire and would have burnt the Boat down had I not been in front of it.

 

Bit dodgy so did away with it.

 

Great heater though !

 

 

That was proper radiant heat.

 

Probably better mounted at height than sitting on the floor.

Edited December 18, 2023 by magnetman

[Willonaboat]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

Its a bit covidesque. By not wearing a face mask you are killing other people.

 

 

 

Wearing a face mask to stop the transmission of a virus is analogous to using a shopping trolley to transport sand. If more people understood this they would see the plandemic (because that's what it was - planned) for what it was. Or as Klaus Schwab put it, an "opportunity" to implement The Great Reset. this goes hand in hand with the UN's Agenda 2030 (you'll hear that year more and more...)

 

Change is coming, like it or not. Sadly most people aren't aware of how drastic and fundamental to thier lives this change will be. CBDCs, carbon credits, social credits and "you will own nothing and be happy", apparently.

 

But I'm just a conspiracy theorist. Obviously...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Willonaboat said:

 

Wearing a face mask to stop the transmission of a virus is analogous to using a shopping trolley to transport sand. If more people understood this they would see the plandemic (because that's what it was - planned) for what it was. Or as Klaus Schwab put it, an "opportunity" to implement The Great Reset. this goes hand in hand with the UN's Agenda 2030 (you'll hear that year more and more...)

 

Change is coming, like it or not. Sadly most people aren't aware of how drastic and fundamental to thier lives this change will be. CBDCs, carbon credits, social credits and "you will own nothing and be happy", apparently.

 

But I'm just a conspiracy theorist. Obviously...

 

Can you take your conspiracy theory BS to the politics and current affairs section of the forum where we can give it a good going over....

[magnetman]

That Mone woman needs shooting. 

I'm amazed someone with that much money didn't figure out changing the name to something like Kaplinski or Cheverton ages ago would have been sensible. Easy with deed poll I did it when I was 18. 

[Willonaboat]

The so-called elite, super-rich, powerful... many of them are hypocrites, liars, psycopaths... (I'll stop there) and I see lots of examples of them sticking two fingers up to the rest of us. They private-jet around the world, then fly by helicopter to their superyacht parties, live in mansions, consume more than most of us would ever dream of, and preach to us that we should fly less, drive less, eat less meat/diary, etc and save the planet because of the so-called 'climate emergency'. They don't believe that. They know it's a scam to enslave us. They'll carry on regardless while we suffer. It's coming. Unless we prepare ourselves to be as self-sufficient as we can be in as many ways as we can. Don't say you haven't been warned.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Willonaboat said:

The so-called elite, super-rich, powerful... many of them are hypocrites, liars, psycopaths... (I'll stop there) and I see lots of examples of them sticking two fingers up to the rest of us. They private-jet around the world, then fly by helicopter to their superyacht parties, live in mansions, consume more than most of us would ever dream of, and preach to us that we should fly less, drive less, eat less meat/diary, etc and save the planet because of the so-called 'climate emergency'. They don't believe that. They know it's a scam to enslave us. They'll carry on regardless while we suffer. It's coming. Unless we prepare ourselves to be as self-sufficient as we can be in as many ways as we can. Don't say you haven't been warned.

 

Yes, lovely.

 

Take it to the correct part of the forum though.

 

And it will be discussed.

[frangar]

5 minutes ago, MJG said:

 

Yes, lovely.

 

Take it to the correct part of the forum though.

 

And it will be discussed.

Ohhh. You love that forum plod outfit don’t you. Are you a mod now? Did you have to register yet another name to get the job?