Marina mooring and CC’ing - are the miles enough?

[cheesegas]

Hi all. Usually I CC around the south east, this year it’s been between Leighton Buzzard, Brentford and Broxbourne on the Lea. When I travel for work it’s usually for a week or two and I put the boat in a non residential marina to keep it safe. 
 

However, towards the end of this year and for much of next year I’ll be away for work a lot more, occasionally back in the UK, and then as usual in summer I plan to spend a couple months or so off work on the upper Thames. When I’m away the boat will be in one of four non residential marinas on CRT water who have offered me a spot on an ad hoc basis and are ok with me living on the boat occasionally. I don’t like spending time in a marina so whenever I’m back I’ll be cc’ing again, but only for a random week here and there. 

 

This does mean I’ll be doing very few miles on CRT waters though, possibly 20-30 only and I may not be spotted. How does this work for licensing? I don’t want to commit to a contract on a home mooring at the marina as my work is flexible and might change - is there a way I can inform the CRT I’ll be in a marina not on a home mooring? Or is it better just to do a new home mooring declaration form every time I get to a new marina? I’ll be away for anything from 2 weeks to 2-3 months. 

 

I’ve called the CRT three times to ask but they’ve been pretty useless, they told me someone will call back but that never happens. 

[Tony Brooks]

I think that you can just declare the marina home mooring as long as you are paying for it. Then when you stop paying go onto their site and declare you are now CCIng

 

When you go onto the Thames it is not any of CaRTs business, it is EA water. Be aware that mooring on the Thames is not as straight forward as on the canals. In many places you have to pay. Say between £5 and £15 a night - more at Henley during the regatta.

[cheesegas]

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that you can just declare the marina home mooring as long as you are paying for it. Then when you stop paying go onto their site and declare you are now CCIng

 

When you go onto the Thames it is not any of CaRTs business, it is EA water. Be aware that mooring on the Thames is not as straight forward as on the canals. In many places you have to pay. Say between £5 and £15 a night - more at Henley during the regatta.

Thanks, as I'll be staying in a number of different marinas depending on where I am so I wasn't sure if the CRT would have an issue with me declaring a different home mooring for 2 weeks to 2 months multiple times a year, and then declaring CC status inbetween. 

 

And yep, I've spent a couple months on the Thames for the last two years, I know all about the rules and I've gotten to know the spots way out in the sticks on public land where it's ok to stay for a few nights, and the better paid spots. I'm aware it's EA water hence my questions as those miles won't count towards my CRT CC'ing quota...

Edited December 5, 2023 by cheesegas

[Arthur Marshall]

I'd have thought if you've declared a home mooring, if you're only out cruising for a few weeks and then going to another marina, you're no different from any other home moorer who goes out on holiday, or moves mooring, so I wouldn't declare as a CC at all, until you go back cruising permanently. Save you the surcharge, too. You'll just need to advise CRT of each new home mooring.

[Captain Pegg]

Note that CRT do check marinas - well certainly those that require licenses if not all - so your sightings record should include your stays on home moorings.

 

I think it’s wrong to suggest you will have the status of a boat with a home mooring when between paid moorings though. If you haven’t got a current mooring agreement or contract then you can’t satisfy the requirement of having an available home mooring and therefore when out and about on CRT waters as well as the 14 day limit you will need to move to a different place and not shuffle.

 

If you move progressively in the above manner between declared home moorings and/or non-CRT water then I cannot see how distance can be a factor.

 

ETA - I’m a little puzzled at the notion of being in a marina but not on a home mooring. Although the system requires the licence holder to declare their status I’d suggest that ultimately their status is a matter of fact rather than being arbitrary i.e. a paid mooring is a home mooring.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Momac]

3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

Hi all. Usually I CC around the south east, this year it’s been between Leighton Buzzard, Brentford and Broxbourne on the Lea. When I travel for work it’s usually for a week or two and I put the boat in a non residential marina to keep it safe. 
 

However, towards the end of this year and for much of next year I’ll be away for work a lot more, occasionally back in the UK, and then as usual in summer I plan to spend a couple months or so off work on the upper Thames. When I’m away the boat will be in one of four non residential marinas on CRT water who have offered me a spot on an ad hoc basis and are ok with me living on the boat occasionally. I don’t like spending time in a marina so whenever I’m back I’ll be cc’ing again, but only for a random week here and there. 

 

This does mean I’ll be doing very few miles on CRT waters though, possibly 20-30 only and I may not be spotted. How does this work for licensing? I don’t want to commit to a contract on a home mooring at the marina as my work is flexible and might change - is there a way I can inform the CRT I’ll be in a marina not on a home mooring? Or is it better just to do a new home mooring declaration form every time I get to a new marina? I’ll be away for anything from 2 weeks to 2-3 months. 

 

I’ve called the CRT three times to ask but they’ve been pretty useless, they told me someone will call back but that never happens. 

I suggest declaring a home mooring at the marina you expect to be in at around the time your license starts.

Then forget about it until the next license renewal.

Or you can change your home mooring on the C&RT online account as you move around if you prefer .

 

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I suggest declaring a home mooring at the marina you expect to be in at around the time your license starts.

Then forget about it until the next license renewal.

Or you can change your home mooring on the C&RT online account as you move around if you prefer .

 

 

 

That’s suggesting the OP be less than totally honest about their true status. Why do that if you have a compliant cruising pattern?

 

Edit to add that @cheesegas really shouldn’t do this because under the proposed licensing regime it would constitute licence fee evasion.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[LadyG]

45 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Note that CRT do check marinas - well certainly those that require licenses if not all - so your sightings record should include your stays on home moorings.

 

I think it’s wrong to suggest you will have the status of a boat with a home mooring when between paid moorings though. If you haven’t got a current mooring agreement or contract then you can’t satisfy the requirement of having an available home mooring and therefore when out and about on CRT waters as well as the 14 day limit you will need to move to a different place and not shuffle.

 

If you move progressively in the above manner between declared home moorings and/or non-CRT water then I cannot see how distance can be a factor.

 

ETA - I’m a little puzzled at the notion of being in a marina but not on a home mooring. Although the system requires the licence holder to declare their status I’d suggest that ultimately their status is a matter of fact rather than being arbitrary i.e. a paid mooring is a home mooring.

A contract is any agreement. OP has agreed to pay when in the mooring, I consider this is my home mooring when in a marina, whether it is residential or not is irrelevant to CRT surely.

I have flip flopped my status, that was few years ago, but if you have a problem the call centre only use the website you have available. Anything complex you need to talk to Licencing Officer. I don't think this is complex . I don't think he wants to know.

It was not a problem before the extra cost to cc. I do not think you are cc from what you have said, as when you are not on the boat it is in a marina , stationary.

Put the boat in a marina when you are buying your licence. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by LadyG

[Captain Pegg]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A contract is any agreement. OP has agreed to pay when in the mooring, I consider this is my home mooring when in a marina, whether it is residential or not is irrelevant to CRT surely.

I have flip flopped my status, that was few years ago, but if you gave a problem the call centre only use the website you have available. Anything complex you need to talk to Licencing Officer. I don't think this is complex .

Being a canal forum as I was writing in language that a broad audience might understand.

 

To some - most? - a contract implies a wordy document with terms and conditions and signatures. Many short term moorings are secured by nothing more than e-mail correspondence or even a phone call, hence my chosen words.

 

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

Being a canal forum as I was writing in language that a broad audience might understand.

 

To some - most? - a contract implies a wordy document with terms and conditions and signatures. Many short term moorings are secured by nothing more than e-mail correspondence or even a phone call, hence my chosen words.

 

Yes, true, but when I have a problem, I think, if I go to court how will I present my case. The case is that on the day I bought the licence I had a contact with the marina.

Now what happens if I decide to change my status on the website to cc  I don't know. So previously I changed my status from home mooring, assuming I had that contract and then changed to cc when I left that marina with no intention to return, ie the contact had lapsed.

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Being a canal forum as I was writing in language that a broad audience might understand.

 

To some - most? - a contract implies a wordy document with terms and conditions and signatures. Many short term moorings are secured by nothing more than e-mail correspondence or even a phone call, hence my chosen words.

 

Is that true of marina moorings? I'd have thought they'd have wanted something formal, but as I've never had one I'm guessing. But surely, if the boat is being largely kept on various moorings during a year, he's a home moorer. I don't turn into a continuous cruiser when I leave my mooring for the summer, nor did I in the period when I moved the boat from one mooring to another.

[dmr]

I suspect the CRT system has CC'ers and home moorers and does not really have a plan to cope with all those who are a bit of both, which is why they can not/will not answer your questions.

 

An option would be declare yourself as a home moorer each time you moor (if the marina is ok with this) and then declare as a CCer when you leave. Its very quick to change status online. Ideally you could arrange to be in a marina when you buy your licence 😀. This all feels a bit underhand and a way to avoid the new CC surcharge so CRT will have to come up with a policy before long. A big potential issue for CRT is that many CCers could take the same mooring short term just to get a licence, whilst in other cases it would be quite genuine.

This hasn't really answered your question but thats how the forum goes.😀

[David Mack]

29 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

That’s suggesting the OP be less than totally honest about their true status. Why do that if you have a compliant cruising pattern?

 

Edit to add that @cheesegas really shouldn’t do this because under the proposed licensing regime it would constitute licence fee evasion.

Under the 95 Act you are only required to notify CRT of your mooring status when you apply for a licence. You are not required to update them with subsequent changes  (although presumably your past behaviour could be a factor in 'satisfying the Board' when you apply to relicence as a CCer).

Boaters who frequently flip between having a home mooring and CCing are going to be an administrative pain in the neck for CRT once the differential licence cost comes in.

 

[Captain Pegg]

28 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes, true, but when I have a problem, I think, if I go to court how will I present my case. The case is that on the day I bought the licence I had a contact with the marina.

Now what happens if I decide to change my status on the website to cc  I don't know. So previously I changed my status from home mooring, assuming I had that contract and then changed to cc when I left that marina with no intention to return, ie the contact had lapsed.

Yes, so your earlier statement directed to the OP “I do not think you are CC” is incorrect.

 

If not in possession of a current mooring agreement he would definitely be without a home mooring. You seem to bring occupation of the boat into the equation but is completely irrelevant.

 

In the end I think you have the solution; update your status as it changes but it’s probably easiest and more defendable to start from a position of having paid for the licence fee for a boat with no home mooring. I think that was the OPs intention. Hence the statement about not wanting to declare a short term marina mooring as a home mooring.

 

In reality I think it will financially advantageous for them to do so.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't turn into a continuous cruiser when I leave my mooring for the summer, nor did I in the period when I moved the boat from one mooring to another.

No. But I have heard of boaters with an end of garden mooring who have declared themselves CCers when they go away on a long trip, so they don't have to pay the EoG mooring fee for the duration of the trip, only to claim it as a home mooring again on their return.

[enigmatic]

Are you cruising the Thames with a Gold Licence? I'd have thought that'd automatically put you low on the list of people they're likely to see as an enforcement issue

 

The "20 miles" is a suggestion to discourage people from staying on the towpath in the same town all year, not a minimum CRT waters journey length for someone that also spends a lot of time paying to be in marinas or off EA waters altogether. Ultimately the licence checkers are spotting boats that are in the same five mile zone every month, not trying to measure exactly how far away you've gone when you're not spotted by anyone for a couple of months

[Captain Pegg]

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Is that true of marina moorings? I'd have thought they'd have wanted something formal, but as I've never had one I'm guessing. But surely, if the boat is being largely kept on various moorings during a year, he's a home moorer. I don't turn into a continuous cruiser when I leave my mooring for the summer, nor did I in the period when I moved the boat from one mooring to another.

They are all different. Some require evidence of insurance and BSS and some need next to nothing. I’ve never signed an actual contract document as far as I can recall though.
 

The reason you don’t become a “CCer” is because there is no such thing.

 

You retain the right of use of your mooring whether your boat is on it or not. The OP has no equivalent when they leave a marina at the end of the agreed stay. Hence the rules are very different and the the intention to take up another paid mooring in future has no bearing.

[dmr]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No. But I have heard of boaters with an end of garden mooring who have declared themselves CCers when they go away on a long trip, so they don't have to pay the EoG mooring fee for the duration of the trip, only to claim it as a home mooring again on their return.

Is this really true? I would assume that once the mooring is vacated (not paid for) it would no longer be a mooring and a whole new application process would be required before it could be used again. A marina will pay CRT for the number of moorings whether or not they are occupied.

[GUMPY]

It's simple!

Make sure you have a mooring when you get your licence.

Declare that mooring.

When you leave that mooring to go to the new mooring do nothing.

On arrival at new mooring  declare you new mooring no

that's it.

 

[Captain Pegg]

17 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Are you cruising the Thames with a Gold Licence? I'd have thought that'd automatically put you low on the list of people they're likely to see as an enforcement issue

 

The "20 miles" is a suggestion to discourage people from staying on the towpath in the same town all year, not a minimum CRT waters journey length for someone that also spends a lot of time paying to be in marinas or off EA waters altogether. Ultimately the licence checkers are spotting boats that are in the same five mile zone every month, not trying to measure exactly how far away you've gone when you're not spotted by anyone for a couple of months

It’s the legal requirement to move to a new place every 14 days that does that.

 

Having a home mooring does change things but it is perhaps a grey area as to how it works when the status is transient. We’re about to find out with the impending changes.

 

i think what might help @cheesegas is to have the next marina mooring agreed before the current one expires.

 

Then the journey between the two can’t be anything other than ‘bona-fide for navigation’ can it? I think it’s that requirement that the range criterion applies to.

 

But that move still has to be done in accordance with the 14 days place to place and no shuffling requirements.

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, dmr said:

Is this really true? I would assume that once the mooring is vacated (not paid for) it would no longer be a mooring and a whole new application process would be required before it could be used again.

I can recall EoG moorers who have stated that online (maybe here, maybe elsewhere). But I also thought at the time it is a bit of a risk since BW/CRT might not accept it as a valid home mooring on your return. 

And with the CCer surcharge any financial incentive to do so will be reduced anyway.

[enigmatic]

10 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s the legal requirement to move to a new place every 14 days that does that.

 

Having a home mooring does change things but it is perhaps a grey area as to how it works when the status is transient. We’re about to find out with the impending changes.

 

i think what might help @cheesegas is to have the next marina mooring agreed before the current one expires.

 

Then the journey between the two can’t be anything other than ‘bona-fide for navigation’ can it? I think it’s that requirement that the range criterion applies to.

 

But that move still has to be done in accordance with the 14 days place to place and no shuffling requirements.

Well yes, I'm assuming the user is moving at least every 14 days when out of the marina, but those moves obviously don't have to be 20 miles each, and I can't imagine being occasionally spotted within a 20 mile range and not being spotted there at all at other times is likely to trigger their suspicions they're trying to avoid moving, especially not if someone has paid extra to cruise someone else's waters and have a bunch of marina receipts to prove that when they want to stay somewhere for an extended period of time they pay for it 

 

Your point that travelling between marinas demonstrates bona fide navigation is a good one too.

Edited December 5, 2023 by enigmatic

[GUMPY]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I can recall EoG moorers who have stated that online (maybe here, maybe elsewhere). But I also thought at the time it is a bit of a risk since BW/CRT might not accept it as a valid home mooring on your return. 

And with the CCer surcharge any financial incentive to do so will be reduced anyway.

I used to do it in the days of BW no requirement to declare CC then.

Never a problem apart from the daft BW staff member that told me I would lose the mooring, they didn't understand it was a FF mooring so I couldn't lose it provided I paid the owner.

[LadyG]

Just another sparkler to throw in the fire of confusion:  the UK Govt will use the status you have declared on certain dates (unknown dates at the time), to assess folk for certain benefits. This included the energy payment. So I nearly missed out on this as I forgot  to change the status from home mooring to cc. 

As cc is not or possibly was not relevant legal status, I felt it was a strange method to identify people who should benefit, pragmatic solution.

Just another sparkler to throw in the fire of confusion:  the UK Govt will use the status you have declared on certain dates (unknown dates at the time), to assess folk for certain benefits. This included the energy payment. So I nearly missed out on this as I forgot  to change the status from home mooring to cc. 

As cc is not or possibly was not relevant legal status, I felt it was a strange method to identify people who should benefit, pragmatic solution.

[GUMPY]

The government are also going to give themselves access to pensioners bank accounts. Did you know pensions are classed as a benefit? This is a precursor to making the state pension means tested😱

You have been warned.