Marina mooring and CC’ing - are the miles enough?

[Arthur Marshall]

Surely if your boat is in a CRT marina for more than rwo weeks, you need to declare it as a home mooring or risk an overstaying notice, the penalties for which are getting tougher.

With regard to the position of home moorers and CCers being financially the same, as has been argued, this is in a lot of cases simply not true. As I pay EOG fees direct to CRT, and always have, if I'd declared as a CC when leaving my first mooring and cruising to the next one, as yet unpaid for, I could have saved a few hundred quid.

But, of course, I wasn't on a continuous cruise, I was moving from one mooring to another, so never stopped being a home moorer, which is exactly what the OP is doing. I can't see any reason why a marina would want to know your status, and if they insist, there's no reason to tell them anything but what they want to hear.

[___]

The answer is actually in the licence fee consultation FAQs on the CRT website

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/national-consultations/licence-fee-review-changes-faqs-2023

 

It says refunds will only be given for moorings taken for a period of at least six months and running to the end date of the licence.

 

That’s at odds with their own literature on what constitutes a home mooring.
 

I think to not give discounts for winter moorings is perhaps a mistake. The costs for those will generally be greater than the licence fee surcharge. I predict next years uptake of winter moorings will be lower.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Lady M]

Is it possible CRT haven't realised how some CC boaters use paid for moorings?  This approach will make it more difficult for them to suggest that a CC boater with a major issue preventing movement for some time take up a mooring.   

[___]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Surely if your boat is in a CRT marina for more than rwo weeks, you need to declare it as a home mooring or risk an overstaying notice, the penalties for which are getting tougher.

With regard to the position of home moorers and CCers being financially the same, as has been argued, this is in a lot of cases simply not true. As I pay EOG fees direct to CRT, and always have, if I'd declared as a CC when leaving my first mooring and cruising to the next one, as yet unpaid for, I could have saved a few hundred quid.

But, of course, I wasn't on a continuous cruise, I was moving from one mooring to another, so never stopped being a home moorer, which is exactly what the OP is doing. I can't see any reason why a marina would want to know your status, and if they insist, there's no reason to tell them anything but what they want to hear.

 

The sightings are coded to distinguish the type of mooring the boat is on (if moored when spotted).

 

I was spotted twice 20 days apart on the same towpath mooring site last year and received an automatic letter reminding me of the requirement to move. My next two sightings were in the same marina and more than 20 days apart. That did not generate the same letter. It wasn't a CRT marina but is there such a thing anymore? I don't see that it matters. The system appears to know if you're in a place from which you are not required to move every 14 days.

 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I thought exactly the same in respect of declaration of home mooring. I’ve never been asked whether I’m declaring a short term mooring as a home mooring. The marina doesn’t generally know my mooring status.
 

It did make me wonder if under the new rules marinas will become more bothered by it though. As you pointed out the only time you are required to declare your mooring status is when applying for a licence. Hence the possible temptation for folk to buy a short term mooring and declare it as a home mooring for licence renewal purposes. That potentially drags the marina into licence enforcement matters. Perhaps that’s already why some in the South East don’t wish to have short term moorers declare a change of status. They always have the option of refusing you a berth.

 

Otherwise it strikes me the OP is likely to be fine. I’d still keep good records though should the question get asked.

I must be missing something but I cannot see how it impacts on the marina.??

[___]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I must be missing something but I cannot see how it impacts on the marina.??

 

Based on what the OP says it seems that some marinas do think it has an impact. Perhaps if we were in their shoes we'd understand why.

 

Getting drawn into disagreements between CRT and boaters under enforcement action or conflict with the conditions of the marina planning permissions are two possible areas.  

 

[Momac]

14 hours ago, LadyG said:

If you consider it to be a home mooring, I don't see why the marina have anything to do with it,  unkess your contract  with them, and if they have you signed up and you both agreed, in writing  that it is not to be declared, then you either accept that or you don't use that marina. Why do they they feel they need to interfere,

Is it confusion between leisure mooring and Residential Status. You are using the marina in a legitimate way IMHO. Many people will live on board in a marina occasionally. They have a house address and spend some time there .

I don't know why you discussed this with them,  did they raise the matter, try letting it drop!

 

 

 

I agree it's acceptable to stay on board in the marina providing its not weeks on end.

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Surely if your boat is in a CRT marina for more than two weeks, you need to declare it as a home mooring or risk an overstaying notice, the penalties for which are getting tougher.

 

Surely you can't overstay in a marina .

3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I can't see any reason why a marina would want to know your status, and if they insist, there's no reason to tell them anything but what they want to hear.

Correct.

I never had a conversation with the marina regarding my declaration that it is my home mooring.

 

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Based on what the OP says it seems that some marinas do think it has an impact. Perhaps if we were in their shoes we'd understand why.

 

Getting drawn into disagreements between CRT and boaters under enforcement action or conflict with the conditions of the marina planning permissions are two possible areas.  

 

The latter could only happen if the marina are flouting planning permission and would potentially arise anyway. Beyond that, the matter of whether a boater has a home mooring is not necessarily connected with whether the boater is residential. There is no reason for CaRT to inform the planners that a marina allows residential use in contravention of their planning status. As happened a few years back, it is clearly not in their (or our) interests.

 

It will be interesting to see whether CaRT pursue a boater that they believe to have made an incorrect declaration with regard to mooring status as a matter of enforcement or of simply a debt. This would be similar to having paid for a shorter boat than actual and is not the same as not having a licence at all.

 

I still cannot see that this is relevant to a marina unless they are already pushing the boundaries.

[Momac]

 

Living on a boat a few days like at weekend or occasionally a couple of weeks at a time  isn't residential. That's what I do . I definitely don't think I am a live-aboard boater .

 

Not having a home mooring and residing on a boat are completely separate things.

. 

eg.

You can have no home mooring and not live on the boat, never or rarely  stay overnight.

You can have a home mooring and  travel as a continuous cruiser  but also have a house where you live part of the time.

You can have a home mooring and a house and live on the boat a whole year while you continuously cruise.

 

 

 

 

[Sue68]

I find it so depressing that this is being discussed in a supposedly free country. When we lived on our boat we went to play skittles every Friday at Braunston. during the winter. This presumably wouldn't now be allowed. How dare they say where I can go . 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Sue68 said:

I find it so depressing that this is being discussed in a supposedly free country.

 

If you think this is a 'free land' then you are living in a very different part of it to me.

 

I was told by the Local Authority that I could not close down my business as it was a 'public amenity'.

I was then told I could not sell my Land.

I was told I cannot dig a hole without planning permission, I was subsequently told that I could not fill in a previously dug hole without planning permission.

I cannot erect a building without planning permission.

[Mike Todd]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

 

Living on a boat a few days like at weekend or occasionally a couple of weeks at a time  isn't residential. That's what I do . I definitely don't think I am a live-aboard boater .

 

Not having a home mooring and residing on a boat are completely separate things.

. 

eg.

You can have no home mooring and not live on the boat, never or rarely  stay overnight.

You can have a home mooring and  travel as a continuous cruiser  but also have a house where you live part of the time.

You can have a home mooring and a house and live on the boat a whole year while you continuously cruise.

 

 

 

 

Hence the only test that matters as it stands is whether or not the licence applicant has a home mooring, or not.

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, Sue68 said:

I find it so depressing that this is being discussed in a supposedly free country. When we lived on our boat we went to play skittles every Friday at Braunston. during the winter. This presumably wouldn't now be allowed. How dare they say where I can go . 

I'm afraid you have to accept the Ts&C's when you licence the boat, life in a first world country will have restrictions.

[GUMPY]

I have been reliably informed that to qualify as a home mooring it needs to be a minimum of a six month contract!

I believe its somewhere on the website or in the T&Cs

[Peanut]

12 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I have been reliably informed that to qualify as a home mooring it needs to be a minimum of a six month contract!

I believe its somewhere on the website or in the T&Cs

 

Posted earlier in link by Capt Peg:

If I’m a continuous cruiser (CC) and I take a mooring, will I be entitled to a refund on the CC additional fee, and how will that be calculated?

Yes, but we are still finalising the details and the process. This will be confirmed before the changes take effect in April. Any refund would be subject to us receiving satisfactory proof of the mooring being obtained.

What proof will you accept to confirm a mooring?

Proof of a mooring of six months or more could be confirmed with a written mooring agreement, signed and dated (showing the start and end date for the mooring agreement). We may also require proof of payment.

If I have a mooring and wish to become a continuous cruiser, will I have to pay the CC additional fee?

Yes, once you notify us that you have given up your mooring and become a continuous cruiser, we will calculate pro rata the CC additional fee you will need to pay.

If I’m a continuous cruiser and I take a short-term mooring or a temporary winter mooring, will I be entitled to a refund on the CC additional fee for the period?

We will only refund the CC surcharge where you take a mooring for your boat of six months or more, which also goes to the end of your licence period.

Short-term moorings or temporary winter moorings of fewer than six months will not be eligible for a refund on the CC additional fee.

 

[cheesegas]

Interesting, thanks for finding that!

 

However, it only mentions mooring in relation to fees and charges which I'm not fussed about. I'm only concerned about the CRT sending me a nasty letter and being difficult about license renewal because I've only been spotted a few times and haven't done many miles because I've spent the rest of the time in a marina...which doesn't count as a home mooring.

[LadyG]

33 minutes ago, cheesegas said:

Interesting, thanks for finding that!

 

However, it only mentions mooring in relation to fees and charges which I'm not fussed about. I'm only concerned about the CRT sending me a nasty letter and being difficult about license renewal because I've only been spotted a few times and haven't done many miles because I've spent the rest of the time in a marina...which doesn't count as a home mooring.

If you don't declare a home mooring when you buy your licence you will effectively be declaring cc, if you do declare a home mooring at the time you buy a licence, do you have to have a written contract, signed by both sides, and for the six months in the future, not three months previous and three month in advance,  if it is for the licence applicant to interpret the rules, I can forsee a lot of confusion, on both sides.

[Lady M]

I think this is why the surcharge approach should not have been adopted.

[GUMPY]

Written contract for a mooring?

My last marina mooring didn't have one! It was a yearly verbal contract payable monthly , quarterly or yearly your choice.

Oh and it only required a month's notice if you wanted to leave before the year was up🤔

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Lady M said:

I think this is why the surcharge approach should not have been adopted.

We, (The Royal We) agree, there lies madness....

[Momac]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

If you don't declare a home mooring when you buy your licence you will effectively be declaring cc, if you do declare a home mooring at the time you buy a licence, do you have to have a written contract, signed by both sides, and for the six months in the future, not three months previous and three month in advance,  if it is for the licence applicant to interpret the rules, I can forsee a lot of confusion, on both sides.

My marina contract renewal is in 1st July. Its not a signed contract but then again in most aspects of daily life most contracts are not signed (eg Utilities, council tax, purchases in shops) .  I do get a receipt for my payment for the mooring.

My C&RT License starts April

 

So I never never  have a marina contract lasting longer than the C&RT license. I am sure I am not alone in this respect.

The same applies to insurance and BSS. As long as it is valid on the day the license commences that's all good. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

It's a right barrel of worms... The short term marina mooring thing is interesting. If you're a continuous cruiser, surely the requirement to move place every two weeks doesn't just relate to towpath moorings, but also if you're offline in a marina. Or does the fact that you have an agreed mooring somewhere cancel the obligation, while not changing your  overall status?

The latter would be sensible, but does anyone really know?

The more you look at how this new system will work, the more it looks like a bureaucratic nightmare.

[Momac]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 If you're a continuous cruiser, surely the requirement to move place every two weeks doesn't just relate to towpath moorings, but also if you're offline in a marina.

 

I certainly would not have applied the 14 day rule (or less if signposted) anywhere other than out on the waterway. And even then at a legitimate paid for mooring on the waterway  the 14 day rule does not apply. This is regardless of a home mooring declared or not.

 

Folks  let's not try to add  complication where it is unnecessary.

 

[___]

28 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's a right barrel of worms... The short term marina mooring thing is interesting. If you're a continuous cruiser, surely the requirement to move place every two weeks doesn't just relate to towpath moorings, but also if you're offline in a marina. Or does the fact that you have an agreed mooring somewhere cancel the obligation, while not changing your  overall status?

The latter would be sensible, but does anyone really know?

The more you look at how this new system will work, the more it looks like a bureaucratic nightmare.

If you buy a mooring then you don’t have to move for the duration, irrespective of how long you are on the mooring.

 

What you must do is move “bona fide for navigation” at all other times when you are a not on a paid mooring.

 

Hence CRT’s expectation of a sufficient range comes into play.

 

As I said earlier in the thread if you were to move progressively and directly between paid moorings and never stay in the same place for more than 14 days I don’t think there is any argument that you aren’t moving in accordance with the law irrespective of range. But that’s not to say you won’t first attract CRT’s attention and then have to argue your case.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

What you must do is move “bona fide for navigation” at all other times when you are a not on a paid mooring.

 

 

That statement only applies to boaters with no home mooring, for boaters with a home mooring there is no such requirement.