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Charges for visitor moorings


magpie patrick

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Hello folks, just a general query - I'm aware of charges for visitor moorings at Llangollen, but are there any other locations on a canal or canalised river (I.e. CRT own the banks) where visitor moorings are charged for? Someone else has asked me and as I don't tend to go to the busy bits I have to admit I don't know! 

 

Thanks 

 

Magpie

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11 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Hello folks, just a general query - I'm aware of charges for visitor moorings at Llangollen, but are there any other locations on a canal or canalised river (I.e. CRT own the banks) where visitor moorings are charged for? Someone else has asked me and as I don't tend to go to the busy bits I have to admit I don't know! 

 

Thanks 

 

Magpie

Little Venice in London, Salthouse Docks in Liverpool? I'm not entirely sure if i'm honest.

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Little Venice has some paid for CRT moorings.

 

I think Kings Cross is getting them and possibly the cutting on the KK side of Angel tunnel.

 

Some of these (Angel tunnel) have electric and are called 'eco moorings' with a ban on fires and generators*

 

 

It will be interesting to observe how widespread paid-for moorings will become and what the CRT will do about enforcement.

 

One can't help thinking a private contractor is going to turn up to do this job. Mr DE Car park man me thinks.

 

 

 

 

For the Angel eco moorings "Please note that boaters will need a Meter Macs account to access the electricity supply."

 

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/islington-eco-mooring-zone-trial

 

 

I'm not convinced the CRT allow cc licence holders to have metermacs accounts...

 

Maybe they have changed this.

 

 

 

* It isn't a ban on fires and generators it is "During the trial, there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking."

 

Which is rather interesting wording !

 

 

 

I wonder who it was who thought up that lovely expression "Progressive encouragement"

 

Its hilarious.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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16 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Little Venice has some paid for CRT moorings.

 

I think Kings Cross is getting them and possibly the cutting on the KK side of Angel tunnel.

 

Some of these (Angel tunnel) have electric and are called 'eco moorings' with a ban on fires and generators*

 

For the Angel eco moorings "Please note that boaters will need a Meter Macs account to access the electricity supply."

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/islington-eco-mooring-zone-trial

 

I'm not convinced the CRT allow cc licence holders to have metermacs accounts...

 

Maybe they have changed this.

 

* It isn't a ban on fires and generators it is "During the trial, there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking."

 

Which is rather interesting wording !

 

I wonder who it was who thought up that lovely expression "Progressive encouragement"

 

Its hilarious.

 

 

Total lack of joined-up thinking here -- how do you "progressively encourage" visiting boaters to use electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking (a "gas-free" boat too...) when this means they end up with a boat that can't go anywhere else on the system?

 

There are a *tiny* minority of boats like mine (LFP hybrid with onboard diesel generator and boiler) which could take advantage of this, but not 99.9% of the boats on the canals -- and never will be until/unless there are network-wide charging points, like for EVs. Even then any switch to EBs in any numbers would take many *many* years...

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Total lack of joined-up thinking here -- how do you "progressively encourage" visiting boaters to use electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking (a "gas-free" boat too...) when this means they end up with a boat that can't go anywhere else on the system?

 

 

 

There are electric bollards at the moorings.

 

This isn't about not having a diesel engine its mainly about smoke from fires.

 

 

The thing which does intrigue me now is do the CRT give metermacs electric accounts to people without home moorings.

 

 

If they don't then it will only be a visitor mooring for those from elsewhere.

 

 

It looks like if you have a 'clean' cc licence then you can get an account but

 

3.9.We reserve the right to refuse you access to the Portal or any other website run by or connected to the Trust (including canalrivertrust.org.uk), and to terminate your account(s) if you are in breach of any relevant laws, these Terms and Conditions or any other applicable terms and conditions, guidelines or policies.

 

 

So presumably they mean if you are a cc licence holder under enforcement then you can't get a metermacs account.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

There are electric bollards at the moorings.

 

This isn't about not having a diesel engine its mainly about smoke from fires.

 

The thing which does intrigue me now is do the CRT give metermacs electric accounts to people without home moorings.

 

If they don't then it will only be a visitor mooring for those from elsewhere.

 

 

I'm aware that smoke from fires (especially wood-burners) is one root cause of the problem -- but how do you get boaters to install electric heating instead of a solid-fuel stove? (and electric cooking if they cook on the stove too)

 

The only thing that is likely to be practical and enforceable is a ban on burning wood and coal and only allowing smokeless fuel i.e. the same as is likely to be applied to houses -- and that's getting plenty of opposition from the well-off in London who've installed woodburners as a cosy lifestyle choice... 😞

 

My point was that the quote saying "there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking" shows that whoever wrote it has no idea about the real-world practicality of doing this.

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45 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'm aware that smoke from fires (especially wood-burners) is one root cause of the problem -- but how do you get boaters to install electric heating instead of a solid-fuel stove? (and electric cooking if they cook on the stove too)

 

The only thing that is likely to be practical and enforceable is a ban on burning wood and coal and only allowing smokeless fuel i.e. the same as is likely to be applied to houses -- and that's getting plenty of opposition from the well-off in London who've installed woodburners as a cosy lifestyle choice... 😞

 

My point was that the quote saying "there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking" shows that whoever wrote it has no idea about the real-world practicality of doing this.

Instead of electric cooking isn't gas cooking and diesel heating considered acceptable  ?

 

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I'm aware that smoke from fires (especially wood-burners) is one root cause of the problem -- but how do you get boaters to install electric heating instead of a solid-fuel stove? (and electric cooking if they cook on the stove too)

 

The only thing that is likely to be practical and enforceable is a ban on burning wood and coal and only allowing smokeless fuel i.e. the same as is likely to be applied to houses -- and that's getting plenty of opposition from the well-off in London who've installed woodburners as a cosy lifestyle choice... 😞

 

My point was that the quote saying "there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking" shows that whoever wrote it has no idea about the real-world practicality of doing this.

 

 

It is practical if moorings have electric and the person on the boat has a metermacs account. it depends what the target audience is. 

 

If it is people who usually keep their boats on a mooring with power and just want to visit central London then they may well already have induction hobs and immersion heaters. 

 

I think this is probably who the target audience are rather than itinerants living in floating sheds. 

 

I am intrigued by the idea of progressive encouragement. 

 

It sounds a little bit scary in some ways. 

 

 

 

 

It is quite eye opening reading the conditions surrounding the bookable moorings. If the CRT can do this in one place presumably they can do it in another place provided there are mooring rings. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Instead of electric cooking isn't gas cooking and diesel heating considered acceptable  ?

 

Yes of course -- but that's not what the document says...

 

"During the trial, there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking."

 

Which means electric heating, immersion heater, and electric hob/oven. Which makes zero sense except for boats which have a permanent mooring with power and never (or rarely) move from it -- and are therefore very unlikely to ever use these eco-moorings...

 

Edited by IanD
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 Mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking."

 

 

There are electric bollards at the eco moorings. You can only use these moorings if you have a metermacs account. This may be part of the "progressive encouragement" strategy. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If the CRT can do this in one place presumably they can do it in another place provided there are mooring rings.

 

From CRT:

"Following consultation we're planning further pre-bookable moorings in London, including at Kings Cross (Regent’s Canal) and Sweetwater in the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park (Lee Navigation)."

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Just now, Hudds Lad said:

 

From CRT:

"Following consultation we're planning further pre-bookable moorings in London, including at Kings Cross (Regent’s Canal) and Sweetwater in the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park (Lee Navigation)."

Yes I saw that. 

 

Presumably this is establishing as a fact that the CRT are allowed to charge for towpath moorings. 

 

I did wonder when this would happen. It seems quite an interesting way of raising a bit of money. Could be an option for a lot of popular areas on canals. 

 

 

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Fair point. I thought all of the BW and CRT moorings were on yearly contracts not visitor moorings. 

 

 

I should have put 'visitor moorings'. The topic is about visitor moorings it is in the thread title. 

Requiring people to book in advance and reserving the right to immediately remove boats without bookings on towpath moorings does seem to me to be a precedent. 

 

 

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I don't know what they can actually do on long term mooring sites, but for some time there have been forbidding notices threatening substantial charges for anyone mooring at a long term site without prior permission. Bit of a shame as in the past it used to be a regular thing for long term moorers to make their home mooring available to others temporarily when they were away boating. 

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31 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes of course -- but that's not what the document says...

 

"During the trial, there will be a progressive encouragement for boaters mooring here to move from burning solid fuels to using electricity for their heating, hot water and cooking."

 

Which means electric heating, immersion heater, and electric hob/oven. Which makes zero sense except for boats which have a permanent mooring with power and never (or rarely) move from it -- and are therefore very unlikely to ever use these eco-moorings...

 

It does say ''progressive encouragement'' and not ''requirement''.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It does say ''progressive encouragement'' and not ''requirement''.

 

It still makes no sense, however slowly or quickly it's done.

 

At least, not without a robust system-wide charging network so there can be a wholesale shift to electric (not hybrid) boats -- for which there is absolutely no plan... 😞

 

It's like saying "We're going to encourage everyone to switch their ICE cars for EVs" without any plan to provide charging points -- lovely in theory, impractical in reality.

Edited by IanD
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Its got nothing to do with electric propulsion or batteries. 

 

A mains electric connection can run your heating, cooking and hot water without requiring a battery or an electric motor anywhere on the boat. 

Plinth fan heater, induction hob and immersion heater.

Of course the fan heater has a motor and water pump to taps but neither of these need batteries or for the boat to be electrically propelled. 

 

The eco moorings are to enable boats to be 'clean' while moored in the zone. 

 

I think it is more about the neighbours moaning than the theoretical move to electric propulsion. 

 

Interestingly my inner London residential mooring had a requirement on the planning permission that no smoke or dust would be emitted from the boats. All 3 boats have multifuel fires and use them..

 

 

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11 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The eco moorings are to enable boats to be 'clean' while moored in the zone. 

Which is fine for boats designed to meet that requirement. But is doesn't work for most visiting boats which won't be equipped for electric cooking and heating. And the boats so designed will not really be appropriate for use elsewhere where there is no mains hookup.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which is fine for boats designed to meet that requirement. But is doesn't work for most visiting boats which won't be equipped for electric cooking and heating. And the boats so designed will not really be appropriate for use elsewhere where there is no mains hookup.

Both my boats have gas and electric cooking as well as electric heating in addition to coal fires. Only small boats 40x9 and 30x10ft 6 by no means luxurious but I can cook and heat either way. 

 

It is very easy to arrange for immersion heater in addition to engine heated water. 

 

These moorings are meant for transient boats. It says in the t&c the boat may not be your main residence. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which is fine for boats designed to meet that requirement. But is doesn't work for most visiting boats which won't be equipped for electric cooking and heating. And the boats so designed will not really be appropriate for use elsewhere where there is no mains hookup.

 

Plenty of boats have mains hookup, microwave, immersion heater element and a £10 fan heater which can be plugged in (not all at once).

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