Issues with lithiums in very cold weather?

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes they were LiFePo4's, see the image copied from DC's post below:

 

 

Of course it doesn’t actually say that any examples did go on fire, just that there is a risk (in their opinion) that it could go on fire. Possible conflation with the risk presented by other Li chemistries?

[cuthound]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Of course it doesn’t actually say that any examples did go on fire, just that there is a risk (in their opinion) that it could go on fire. Possible conflation with the risk presented by other Li chemistries?

 

The government don't issue recall notices on a whim. They require evidence of several identical failures.

 

My guess is that the batteries overheated and caused nearby combustible materials to ignite. 

[MtB]

Just now, cuthound said:

 

The government don't issue recall notices on a whim. They require evidence of several identical failures.

 

My guess is that the batteries overheated and caused nearby combustible materials to ignite. 

 

 

If one reads facebook, the Renogy forum and similar trash, one realises how spectacularly thick, stoopid and ignorant a proportion of lithium users really are. 

 

So I think you are probably right. 

[Tony1]

20 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

If one reads facebook, the Renogy forum and similar trash, one realises how spectacularly thick, stoopid and ignorant a proportion of lithium users really are. 

 

So I think you are probably right. 

 

I suspect there are many lithium users who don't have the benefit of the advice and experience on a forum like this one, and who routinely overstress their batteries. 

I spoke to a guy with a lithium bank at Llangollen in December- he was on the shoreline hookup and I noticed his SoC was saying 98%.

On a day to day basis mine stay under 85% (maybe 90% sometimes), and I remarked that 98% was a high SoC to be reaching on a daily basis.

I added that I had read that it might shorten their lifespan- and maybe worse.

But he wasn't having any of it- not that he was rude or dismissive, but he was unmoved in his conviction that he knew these batteries well, and felt sure he was handling them safely. 

Fortunately there are usually safeguards that will protect ill-informed users from harming themselves or their batteries- such as high-temp sensors and high voltage disconnects, etc. 

Even a half decent MPPT or other charging unit will safely manage the battery voltage if set correctly, and will go into float mode (i.e. effectively stop charging) long before the batteries start to suffer any harm. 

I just hope that knowledge spreads quickly about managing lithiums conservatively and not pushing them too hard too often. 

All we need is a single LiFeP04 fire on a narrowboat, and before you know it the bloody things will have to be towed behind your boat in a titanium tender, enclosed by a lead lined blast-proof shelter that's been blessed by the Pope.

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

All we need is a single LiFeP04 fire on a narrowboat, and before you know it the bloody things will have to be towed behind your boat in a titanium tender, enclosed by a lead lined blast-proof shelter that's been blessed by the Pope.

 

 

Dammit you've had that email too, eh?

 

 

[Tony1]

18 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Dammit you've had that email too, eh?

 

 

 

Well not yet- its guesswork at the moment, but I'm fully expecting my insurance company to transpose the nuclear waste regulations into a new 'information document' covering the installation of lithium batteries, since as we know lithium batteries are currently the most dangerous objects that exist anywhere on the planet, and certainly the greatest threat to the future of mankind.

I wouldn't mind if the next extinction-level event was caused by lithium batteries, as long as it took out those BSS b****rds who are turning lithium battery longevity and preservation advice into so-called essential safety regs.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Tony1

[magnetman]

I've heard rumours from a Very Reliable Sauce that beer storage aboard boats is going to be subjected to severe sanctions via the BS scheme soon. 

 

 

[Tony1]

15 hours ago, magnetman said:

I've heard rumours from a Very Reliable Sauce that beer storage aboard boats is going to be subjected to severe sanctions via the BS scheme soon. 

 

 

 

Thank Heavens they are finally taking the deadly danger of beer more seriously.

Barely a decade ago I almost dropped a can of beer onto my foot. 

Had I actually dropped it, and had it actually hit my foot if I did drop it- and had I not been wearing slippers at the time this disaster nearly happened- then it would have damn near killed me. 

Clearly some sort of system is required to transfer beer from fridge to worktop without the dangerously unreliable and greasy hand of a human.

I have some initial designs for a beer-loading system, which I will freely admit are derived from the autoloader of a T80 tank. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thank Heavens they are finally taking the deadly danger of beer more seriously.

Barely a decade ago I almost dropped a can of beer onto my foot. 

Had I actually dropped it, and had it actually hit my foot if I did drop it- and had I not been wearing slippers at the time this disaster nearly happened- then it would have damn near killed me. 

Clearly some sort of system is required to transfer beer from fridge to worktop without the dangerously unreliable and greasy hand of a human.

I have some initial designs for a beer-loading system, which I will freely admit are derived from the autoloader of a T80 tank. 

 

 

I installed a BMS (beer management system) on my boat to prevent this exact scenario. I buy the beer. Mrs R drinks it. No risk of foot damage. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Clearly some sort of system is required to transfer beer from fridge to worktop without the dangerously unreliable and greasy hand of a human.

 

Hang on. You keep your beer in a fridge??? 

 

Are you American or something?!!!

 

 

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I installed a BMS (beer management system) on my boat to prevent this exact scenario. I buy the beer. Mrs R drinks it. No risk of foot damage. 

 

Call me old fashioned, but I do think I see the teeniest potential flaw in this otherwise admirable arrangement.... 

 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

Call me old fashioned, but I do think I see the teeniest potential flaw in this otherwise admirable arrangement.... 

 

What's that then? 

 

It's been an arrangement that has worked adequately for years. 

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hang on. You keep your beer in a fridge??? 

 

Are you American or something?!!!

 

 

 

Yes I do.

And I drink cheap lager with unlikely scandinavian-sounding brand names from LIDL (other stores are available).

There. I've said it. 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Yes I do.

And I drink cheap lager with unlikely scandinavian-sounding brand names from LIDL (other stores are available).

There. I've said it. 

 

 

OMG, my condolences.

 

And there was me thinking you were 'one of us', Proper boaters who partake of 'Proper ale'. Y'know, brown and warm stuff with acorns and worms and bits of tree trunk floating about in it....

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

What's that then? 

 

It's been an arrangement that has worked adequately for years. 

 

Just a slight niggle old boy. Perhaps a niggle-ette. 

But in my ideal world scenario, at some point in the beer management process, I would quite like to do some actual tasting of the beer. 

I know- I'm nit picking, but...

 

There is also the danger of one's partner having a few too many, and starting to throw objects at one.

In my younger years I had a girlfriend who sometimes got violent after too much alchohol. Nights out were often lively, if a tad dangerous.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I drink cheap lager with unlikely scandinavian-sounding brand names

 

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

at some point [...] I would quite like to do some actual tasting of the beer. 

 

I think I've spotted the problem!

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

OMG, my condolences.

 

And there was me thinking you were 'one of us', Proper boaters who partake of 'Proper ale'. Y'know, brown and warm stuff with acorns and worms and bits of tree trunk floating about in it....

 

Sadly not old fruit. I sit firmly within the 'chav' demographic- in fact I see myself as something of a cultural ambassador from this much-maligned group. Crossing social divides, and all that.

And of course, face down in the gutter on Saturday night.

 

 

 

[magnetman]

Interestingly the Nitrous Oxide bottle which the kids dispose of after doing their inhaling are exactly the right size to make a beer can holder. 

 

The big bottles. Aluminium ones. Smartwhip brand. The plastic covering is just a shrink wrap which can be taken orf. 

 

Cut bottle in half and you have two holders which can be secured in suitable places to prevent accidental knocking over of beer can. 

 

 

 

 

Typical places include wooden rail on armchair, banister (with vee wedge), boat tiller arm (with adapter) the list is endless. 

One could easily make a beer can holder tiller pin. 

 

(ensure bottle empty before cutting)

Edited July 30, 2023 by magnetman

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

I think I've spotted the problem!

 

My next logical step is gravitating towards the high-strength 'export' style lagers, and hanging out under bridges. 

 

 

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I installed a BMS (beer management system) on my boat to prevent this exact scenario. I buy the beer. Mrs R drinks it. No risk of foot damage. 

 

I've trained Mrs Hound to reverse that order. Much more satisfactory. 🤣

[Ronaldo47]

I understand that, in the USA, you can buy "beer hats" that have a pair of holders for beer cans and long plastic straws so you can imbibe while keeping your hands free.

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Tony1 said:

But in my ideal world scenario, at some point in the beer management process, I would quite like to do some actual tasting of the beer. 

 

Don't put it in the fridge then, duh!!!!

 

Hope that helps...

 

 

[Tony1]

 

Just a quick (and optimistic) update, hopefully of use to those with DIY lithium installs using Valences or similar, and who are electrically challenged like me (which now that I think about it, is a tiny demographic):

I think you will only need a single BMV712 and a single temp sensor to comply with most of the potential future BSS regs relating to BMS type functions for lithium batteries.

 

A single BMV712 will use a single temp sensor to monitor and disconnect for both high and low temp events, in addition to the BMV's other features (high volt disconnect, etc). I've attached a screenshot of the phone with a temp sensor in operational use.

 

This is assuming that BSS inspectors are satisfied with you monitoring voltage and temp for the battery bank as a whole. 

If they interpret the regs as requiring these BMS functions at battery level, then it might be more of a challenge.

 

But it might be possible to place a temp sensor on each battery (about £25 each), and then attach all three of the temp sensors to a single BMV712 unit by simply stuffing all three sensor wires into the positive port on the BMV shunt.

 

I dont know how the battery temp would display on the BMV unit,  with three temp inputs active on its port, but the BSS types wont look that closely into it I bet.

 

ETA- I do have a low SoC and low voltage disconnect set up as well, and these could also be done using the same BMV unit. 

I haven't done that with this unit, because in the case of low SoC or low voltage, I only want the loads to disconnect (and not the chargers)- so I've set up a second BMV and a separate disconnect switch to manage that. 

But that is not essential as per the coming future regs- I think it could all be done in compliance using a single BMV712. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Just a quick (and optimistic) update, hopefully of use to those with DIY lithium installs using Valences or similar, and who are electrically challenged like me (which now that I think about it, is a tiny demographic):

I think you will only need a single BMV712 and a single temp sensor to comply with most of the potential future BSS regs relating to BMS type functions for lithium batteries.

 

A single BMV712 will use a single temp sensor to monitor and disconnect for both high and low temp events, in addition to the BMV's other features (high volt disconnect, etc). I've attached a screenshot of the phone with a temp sensor in operational use.

 

 

 

This is assuming that BSS inspectors are satisfied with you monitoring voltage and temp for the battery bank as a whole. 

If they interpret the regs as requiring these BMS functions at battery level, then it might be more of a challenge.

 

But it might be possible to place a temp sensor on each battery (about £25 each), and then attach all three of the temp sensors to a single BMV712 unit by simply stuffing all three sensor wires into the positive port on the BMV shunt.

 

I dont know how the battery temp would display on the BMV unit,  with three temp inputs active on its port, but the BSS types wont look that closely into it I bet.

 

 

I suppose it will also depend if they regard your battery monitor/ motorised switch arrangement as an equivalent alternative to a dedicated BMS designed for the job, with all the other functions that your one does not. 

[Tony1]

Just now, rusty69 said:

I suppose it will also depend if they regard your battery monitor/ motorised switch arrangement as an equivalent alternative to a dedicated BMS designed for the job, with all the other functions that your one does not. 

 

One has to hope that if one puts in place a system that will manage the functions that they specify in the regs, they will be satisfied- especially if you can demonstrate all of the functions. 

Modern BMSs like the fogstar have other functions, but it doesnt matter if those other functions are not part of the BSS requirements. 

 

But if a BMS is deemed non-compliant simply on the basis that it uses off the shelf components (as opposed to being part of the manufacturer's original assembly), that is effectively going to disqualify almost all of the DIY installs that are based on bare cells, which would be very unfair.