Issues with lithiums in very cold weather?

[rusty69]

9 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'm guardedly optimistic re the BSS. One of the kind members here has given me a suggestion to use for the coming BSS, who has not been hostile to lithiums in the past. So fingers crossed etc.

 

But if that inspector has moved on, or has changed his attitude, then we'll have to see. 

There's no telling what they might object to, if the mood takes them and if they are too ignorant to realise that LifeP04s are far far safer than lithium ion etc. It might be some aspect of the BMS arrangements, the siting, the fire risk mitigation- or maybe the lack of proof that the batteries are being used for a task that the manufacturer originally said was OK. 

But since the BSS dont yet have any firm/specific rules in place for lithiums, and an over zealous inspector can be challenged, the odds are this time it'll all be fine.

 

But that said, I am starting to get an impression that the relevant stakeholders and authorities are bringing their focus onto lithiums.

For example, your letter is evidence that some insurance companies have got lithiums on their radar, so who knows where that will go in future. 

My guess is that letter is just the start, and in 5 years time all insurance companies will add a specific question about lithiums (or will ask to be informed if you install them). And then there is the risk that if you dont tell them, a future claim might be disputed. 

 

So removing your DIY lithium install for the BSS inspection will no longer be something you'll want to do. 

Let's just hope that as Ian says, they are smart enough to distinguish between LiFeP04 and the other more risky types, and that they dont introduce a raft of BSS regs that DIYers will struggle to comply with. 

 

But as you say, these batteries are too good to be sidelined. They are not going away.

  

I have done all I can to ensure my ones are safe,they are in a metal battery box,compression bars fitted, they have a BMS, conservative set of charging parameters, an audible high/low voltage alarm, and a battery monitor controlled motorised switch. 

 

I informed my insurance company before I installed them, and they have passed a BSS inspection. 

 

However, I remebr the days when the BSS was first introduced, with all of the changing goalposts. I remember how slow the scheme was to introduce CO alarms. 

 

I am less confident than you, but still live in hope. 

[nicknorman]

56 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I must admit, when I heard about the likely future regs for lithiums, and then Rusty's insurance letter- and even some dark mutterings from the boat engineer I spoke to- I did briefly consider ditching the valences altogether, and just buying myself a 460Ah fogstar with a full-featured internal BMS, like our illustrious Mr n-baj has done. 

That battery is probably capable of being 95% compliant with any future regs, as it comes out of the box.

But when I calmed down a bit, it seemed to me that most of the potential new/future requirements can be met- even for my valences- using the kit I already have, with BMVs and sensors etc. 

 

I think maybe the critical issue will be whether the BSS regs insist on BMS control at cell level, battery level, or just for the whole bank of batteries. 

At the moment my plans will make me 90% compliant with the possible future regs, but only as long as I manage all three batteries as an overall entity. 

I.e. a single voltage measurement, or temp measurement, that will be taken and acted upon for all three batteries. 

 

After my next BSS I have four years for them to come to their senses. But if they don't, and if a future inspector says there must be BMS management at battery level, then that means I have to have two BMV712s and two temp sensors for each battery, costing me about £700. 

 

But rather than have half a dozen BMV712 displays dotted around the place, plus all the shunts and the wiring, it might make more sense to just ditch the batteries, as there will be more powerful and cheaper models available by then. 

 

Or ditch the lithiums and go back to burning large amounts of diesel for lead acid battery charging in winter, because who cares about the climate when the BSS have got a bee their bonnets about lithium batteries?

 

I spoke to an electrician who installs lithiums but who shall remain nameless, and he said he had struggled to get his insurance company to cover his lithium install work. We have this incredible LiFeP04 technology that saves on fuel for electricity generation and really helps boaters, and they are acting like 15th century peasants that have a witch on trial. Its pathetic, is what it is.

 

I suppose one possible solution would be to open up your batteries, remove the slightly pointless non-disconnecting BMSs  and replace with more useful BMSs that give cell level disconnect protection.

[magnetman]

The Valence batteries are out of the Boris buses. 

[Tony1]

29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I suppose one possible solution would be to open up your batteries, remove the slightly pointless non-disconnecting BMSs  and replace with more useful BMSs that give cell level disconnect protection.

 

TheBiscuits mentioned that as an option, and I found a video explaining one method:

 

But my concern is that a DIY addition of a BMS to an ex-EV battery might in itself constitute a non-compliance, especially if the BMS unit is sellotaped to the top surface of the battery. 

The good news is we are still a couple of years away from anything like this getting into the BSS regs, although it does seem likely that it eventually will. 

I think I can defend my BMS arrangements in terms of providing excellent safety, but my opinion matters nothing if a keen BSS guy decides that each battery needs its own BMS setup. 

If that ever happened (and it several years away yet), I'd have to decide whether it was worth risking more expenditure on the batteries, with no certainty that meddling with their internals to add a BMS wont in itself cause a failure.

Or spending hundreds so that I can have two BMV712s for each battery- and that sounds ridiculous. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

The Valence batteries are out of the Boris buses. 

 

I bet they've been used in a wide variety of vehicles, and as I've said they seem to be excellent in terms of their quality and performance.

It would be absolutely criminal to discard these great batteries when they have a decade or more of life in them, just for the sake of an ill-informed fear based on a different type of lithium battery chemistry. 

Fingers crossed really. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

 , and they have passed a BSS inspection. 

 

I don't see how they could fail as the BSS doesn't mention Lithium of any description 

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't see how they could fail as the BSS doesn't mention Lithium of any description 

They could fail for the same reasons as any other battery installation. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by rusty69

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

TheBiscuits mentioned that as an option, and I found a video explaining one method:

 

But my concern is that a DIY addition of a BMS to an ex-EV battery might in itself constitute a non-compliance, especially if the BMS unit is sellotaped to the top surface of the battery. 

The good news is we are still a couple of years away from anything like this getting into the BSS regs, although it does seem likely that it eventually will. 

I think I can defend my BMS arrangements in terms of providing excellent safety, but my opinion matters nothing if a keen BSS guy decides that each battery needs its own BMS setup. 

If that ever happened (and it several years away yet), I'd have to decide whether it was worth risking more expenditure on the batteries, with no certainty that meddling with their internals to add a BMS wont in itself cause a failure.

Or spending hundreds so that I can have two BMV712s for each battery- and that sounds ridiculous. 

 

Putting aside any regulatory issues, the fundamental problem with your installation is no cell level disconnect or charge control. Which is fine until there is some sort of issue with a cell or its connections. But then again, I suppose what is at risk is the health of the battery rather than a safety issue since we know it is extremely difficult to get LiFePO4 to self-ignite.

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Putting aside any regulatory issues, the fundamental problem with your installation is no cell level disconnect or charge control. Which is fine until there is some sort of issue with a cell or its connections. But then again, I suppose what is at risk is the health of the battery rather than a safety issue since we know it is extremely difficult to get LiFePO4 to self-ignite.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. 

Those potential new draft regs seem to have several requirements that relate only to the health and preservation of the batteries, which to me is absolutely out of order.

Generally speaking, if its not an issue that will cause a battery fire, then they have no business making it a BSS requirement. 

 

E.g. if you try to charge a lithium battery at say 0.5C when its temp is minus 10, you might break it- but it wont catch fire. Its not a danger to you, its a danger to the battery. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

I will just pop this in just in case anyone has them Product Recall: BOOW LiFePO4 Leisure Battery sold via Amazon (2304-0009) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I will just pop this in just in case anyone has them Product Recall: BOOW LiFePO4 Leisure Battery sold via Amazon (2304-0009) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

I dont know whether you're trolling or whatever by placing that there. If you are then well done and give yourself a pat on the back.

But it doesnt change the fact that LiFeP04 batteries are very safe. 

One recall incident does not a BSS requirement make. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tony1

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I will just pop this in just in case anyone has them Product Recall: BOOW LiFePO4 Leisure Battery sold via Amazon (2304-0009) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

 

What an astonishing piece of shit.

 

The recall notice I mean, not the product. Here is some of the text:

 

The terminals were not sufficiently insulated or recessed to prevent accidental short circuiting, and the earthing arrangements were insufficient, presenting a risk of overheating and fire. The blue product does not contain a battery management system nor have a fuse on the output. There was also no discharge cut-off voltage, making it possible for the battery to overcharge and overheat.

 

Terminals not insulated or recessed … just like any other battery

 

Earthing arrangements … since when did a 12v battery have “earthing arrangements”

 

No fuse on the output ... Just like every other 12v lead acid battery

 

No discharge cut-off voltage -> possible to overcharge? Do they understand the difference between charging and discharging? Obviously not.

 

Someone needs a good slapping. And we are paying their salary.

Edited July 24, 2023 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I dont know whether you're trolling or whatever by placing that there, but it doesnt change the fact that LiFeP04 batteries are very safe. 

One recall incident does not a BSS requirement make. 

 

 

If you read what I put you will see why I put it there. People with an interest in lithium will no doubt be reading this and its possible they have bought them. You are not the only person with lithium batteries on a boat, most people would probably buy a drop in battery rather than put a system together like you have.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I dont know whether you're trolling or whatever by placing that there, but it doesnt change the fact that LiFeP04 batteries are very safe. 

One recall incident does not a BSS requirement make. 

Perhaps the point was that the recall notice was a pile of shite and demonstrates that the “powers that be” don’t have a scooby!

[blackrose]

On 23/07/2023 at 17:55, Tony1 said:

Do some people deal with the cold issue by simply running the engine for say 20 mins before they do any charging? 

 

How does that work then? I don't know how lithium batteries are charged - doesn't running the engine/alternator charge lithium batteries?

Edited July 24, 2023 by blackrose

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you read what I put you will see why I put it there. People with an interest in lithium will no doubt be reading this and its possible they have bought them. You are not the only person with lithium batteries on a boat, most people would probably buy a drop in battery rather than put a system together like you have.

 

I did read your post - I'm just not 100% sure I believe your motive was all about public safety.

The timing of it makes me wonder if was more about having a good old troll, or just to be contrary, when people are trying to explain how safe LiFeP04 batteries are. 

Anyway, as Nick has explained, the whole recall is based on garbage statements. 

 

 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I did read your post - I'm just not 100% sure I believe your motive was all about public safety.

The timing of it makes me wonder if was more about having a good old troll, or just to be contrary, when people are trying to explain how safe LiFeP04 batteries are. 

Anyway, as Nick has explained, the whole recall is based on garbage statements. 

 

 

I don't think it's anything sinister Tony. Brian posted the same thing on the 12V boating group on FB. 

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

How did that work then? Isn't running the engine/alternator used to charge lithium batteries?

 

In normal temps, yes, it is.

But in sub zero temps the BMSs in lithiums will sometimes disconnect the battery from charging (and with some BMSs, disconnect from discharging too)

So my guess is that they resolved it by running the engine for 30 mins or so just to warm up the engine bay a bit, at which point the lithiums will have warmed up above zero, and will have reconnected themselves, and will now accept a charge.

Or something akin to that.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

In normal temps, yes, it is.

But in sub zero temps the BMSs in lithiums will sometimes disconnect the battery from charging (and with some BMSs, disconnect from discharging too)

So my guess is that they resolved it by running the engine for 30 mins or so just to warm up the engine bay a bit, at which point the lithiums will have warmed up above zero, and will have reconnected themselves, and will now accept a charge.

Or something akin to that.

 

 

My LiFePO4 battery has a heating element built in, and should you try to charge it at minus <whatever> degrees C, it will divert the charge current to the heater elements until the cells have warmed up to (I think) 5 degrees C. 

 

Neat, eh? 

 

 

[Francis Herne]

So far as passing the present BSS inspection goes, remember the complete list of checks is publicly available:

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/299273/bss-examination-checking-procedures-interim-public-version.pdf

Probably wise to read everything applicable first and have a copy on hand in case it's disputed.

 

Inspectors aren't allowed to fail a BSS exam based on their opinion of how lithium batteries should be installed, only on failures to meet a specific checklist item. The current edition has no checks specific to lithium.

 

The only rule I can see that a 'hostile' inspector could try to fail your indoor lithiums under, assuming everything else is done correctly, is part of 3.1.1:

Quote

Applicability - if batteries of a ‘sealed’ type are stored in a non-ventilated space verify that storage in
unventilated spaces meets with the battery manufacturer’s recommendations by reference to presented
documentation from the manufacturer.

but

Quote

Applicability – ventilation pathways into accommodation spaces having fixed high-level ventilation or
into canopied areas are acceptable.

(obviously applying either of these to lithiums is a nonsense, but someone could try it at a stretch).

 

Otherwise make sure everything is properly secured, insulated, fused etc. and you should be good.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Francis Herne

[Tony1]

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you read what I put you will see why I put it there. People with an interest in lithium will no doubt be reading this and its possible they have bought them. You are not the only person with lithium batteries on a boat, most people would probably buy a drop in battery rather than put a system together like you have.

 

I've just read rusty's post, and I can see that I owe you an apology for doubting your motive in posting the recall notice. 

 

The fact remains that the recall itself is based on garbage, and it will only create a false sense of alarm and incorrect fears about LifeP04s, but that is not your fault. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

My LiFePO4 battery has a heating element built in, and should you try to charge it at minus <whatever> degrees C, it will divert the charge current to the heater elements until the cells have warmed up to (I think) 5 degrees C. 

 

Neat, eh? 

 

 

 

That is very cunning indeed. 

I heard about one model that tries to keep the battery above zero all night long, but I can imagine that might waste a lot of the batteries charge. 

Ideally you would want one that you could set to warm itself up based on a timer, so  at say 7am it would be ready to be charged, if you were making an early start. 

To be honest I still like Nicks idea, of ducting some air into the battery box from the cabin. It would only need a tiny 5v USB fan to push the air in, so almost no charge is used, but if it worked it could keep the batteries well above zero all night long. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

25 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I did read your post - I'm just not 100% sure I believe your motive was all about public safety.

The timing of it makes me wonder if was more about having a good old troll, or just to be contrary, when people are trying to explain how safe LiFeP04 batteries are. 

Anyway, as Nick has explained, the whole recall is based on garbage statements. 

 

 

Its still a recall, some members on here may have them and I don't have to answer to you

Edited July 24, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its still a recall, some members on here may have them and I don't have to answer to you

 

Fair enough- I have to admit it was wrong of me to doubt your motives in posting that recall.

 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I've just read rusty's post, and I can see that I owe you an apology for doubting your motive in posting the recall notice. 

 

The fact remains that the recall itself is based on garbage, and it will only create a false sense of alarm and incorrect fears about LifeP04s, but that is not your fault. 

 

 

 

That is very cunning indeed. 

I heard about one model that tries to keep the battery above zero all night long, but I can imagine that might waste a lot of the batteries charge. 

Ideally you would want one that you could set to warm itself up based on a timer, so  at say 7am it would be ready to be charged, if you were making an early start. 

To be honest I still like Nicks idea, of ducting some air into the battery box from the cabin. It would only need a tiny 5v USB fan to push the air in, so almost no charge is used, but if it worked it could keep the batteries well above zero all night long. 

 

I still like mrsmelly's idea of keeping them inside the cabin and reading them a bedtime story before tucking them in for the night.

 

I keep mine in the enjun room, under the floor where it never gets colder than the canal water.

 

 

[Guest]

The suggestion that Ditchcrawler is 'trolling' is possibly the daftest thing I've heard on here for a very long time.

[Tony1]

Just now, M_JG said:

The suggestion that Ditchcrawler is 'trolling' is possibly the daftest thing I've heard on here for a very long time.

 

If that was intended even partly for my attention, I can only say that to expect me to have any regard for one of your posts is the daftest idea I've heard in a very long time.