George Ward evicted.

[Midnight]

5 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

Like that, it makes it a simple decision. The guy is possibly stubborn. I wouldn't be comfortable with any issues of violence. Difficult for someone sitting at a laptop to be able to understand how it has led to a 10 year stand-off. There does seem to be a lack of empathy for this chap, and too much for the ability of CRT to extract money, when apparently, they have no authority to do so. And I mean legal authority.

 

 

Not sure where you're coming from. Are you saying Mr Ward should be exempt from paying license fees etc and be allowed to stay as long as he likes in one place?

[magnetman]

Interesting position. 

 

Apart from being able to charge for licensing on canals the CRT are specifically authorised by statute to remove a relevant craft moored without awful authority and following certain procedures around the ownership of the boat being established (or not) they can then make an attempt to claim their costs associated with the removal. 

 

Its all written down in Acts of Parliament. 

 

Obviously some would take the view that it is all bogus but it actually isn't. 

 

 

Something like this 

 

[Barneyp]

8 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

Like that, it makes it a simple decision. The guy is possibly stubborn. I wouldn't be comfortable with any issues of violence. Difficult for someone sitting at a laptop to be able to understand how it has led to a 10 year stand-off. There does seem to be a lack of empathy for this chap, and too much for the ability of CRT to extract money, when apparently, they have no authority to do so. And I mean legal authority.

 

 

Possibly stubborn? He has been refusing to comply with the regulations or to accept offers of support that don't allow him to do exactly what he wants when he wants for the last ten years, I think that goes beyond stubborn.

 

I have empathy for him because clearly he is in some level of distress, that doesn't mean he should be allowed to continue ignoring the rules and doing what he wants.

 

CRT have an obligation as the navigation authority and custodian of the land to maintain the canals and enforce the law as set out in the Acts of Parliament, the only legitimate point about them not following due process is that they have given more warning and second chances than they should have.

 

What do you think should happen to people who refuse to follow the rules, should they just be allowed to do whatever they want regardless of the effect on others?

[Higgs]

8 hours ago, Barneyp said:

What do you think should happen to people who refuse to follow the rules, should they just be allowed to do whatever they want regardless of the effect on others?

 

CRT do. I'm not going to support CRT, if they find others doing what they do. Bending rules.

 

 

11 hours ago, Midnight said:

Not sure where you're coming from. Are you saying Mr Ward should be exempt from paying license fees etc and be allowed to stay as long as he likes in one place?

 

I can't be bothered to feel obliged to harass the little guy.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Higgs

[magnetman]

 

It does seem an interesting subject. 

 

The way things are going the group who is unlicensed and just does whatever they like is increasing in size. 

 

Is it okay if everyone does this? 

 

How many would be a reasonable number? 

 

Shall we have a cap of some sort at ten percent of people on boats need not pay anything or have safety certificates or insurance. 

 

15 percent? 

 

I'm in. Hate the BS scheme and insurance. 

 

 

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

It does seem an interesting subject. 

 

The way things are going the group who is unlicensed and just does whatever they like is increasing in size. 

 

Is it okay if everyone does this? 

 

How many would be a reasonable number? 

 

Shall we have a cap of some sort at ten percent of people on boats need not pay anything or have safety certificates or insurance. 

 

15 percent? 

 

I'm in. Hate the BS scheme and insurance. 

 

 

 

The system isn't straight, to begin with. And boaters have virtually no voice.

 

 

[dmr]

The canals are in trouble, they are declining at an accelerating rate due to limited finance. We all need to make an increasing contribution in many ways, not just financially. Those who are not willing to contribute, or even worse make a negative contribution, will have to go.

In the short term this will cost a lot of money in evictions and legal costs but that has to be done.

 

If the latest figures on global warming are correct then this is all probably irrelevent.

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, kris88 said:

Well just take your boats name and numbers off and paint it grey or red oxide. Then just ignore any letters crt attach to the boat, easy. 

I've just painted mine, so the name's gone. The number plates are just wedged in the windows so that's easy. Hmmm... you've just saved me a fortune.

[Higgs]

20 minutes ago, dmr said:

The canals are in trouble, they are declining at an accelerating rate due to limited finance. We all need to make an increasing contribution in many ways, not just financially. Those who are not willing to contribute, or even worse make a negative contribution, will have to go.

In the short term this will cost a lot of money in evictions and legal costs but that has to be done.

 

If the latest figures on global warming are correct then this is all probably irrelevent.

 

The Mafia needs funds, too. But we would not generally condone the less than ethical way they procure those funds.

 

 

[Jon57]

27 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

The system isn't straight, to begin with. And boaters have virtually no voice.

 

 

How much boating has Mr Ward done. 😡😡

[Higgs]

Just now, Jon57 said:

How much boating has Mr Ward done. 😡😡

 

Ask him, I don't know. 

 

 

[Barneyp]

44 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

CRT do. I'm not going to support CRT, if they find others doing what they do. Bending rules.

 

In relation to George Ward how have CRT bent the rules?

I know that it's a distressing situation for him, and for others who are personally involved, but are you really saying if someone refuses to comply they should be allowed to do whatever they want?

Even if you don’t like CRT do you not accept that whoever for society to function we need rules and people need to follow them?

 

 

[Higgs]

Just now, Barneyp said:

In relation to George Ward how have CRT bent the rules?

I know that it's a distressing situation for him, and for others who are personally involved, but are you really saying if someone refuses to comply they should be allowed to do whatever they want?

Even if you don’t like CRT do you not accept that whoever for society to function we need rules and people need to follow them?

 

 

 

I'm saying that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I don't believe CRT act in an altogether ethical way themselves.

 

 

[Jon57]

4 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Ask him, I don't know. 

 

 

Will do next time I’m down that way in a few years. Thanks 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I'm saying that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I don't believe CRT act in an altogether ethical way themselves.

 

 

 

What has ethics got to do with it ?

 

George Ward has failed to comply with the law, a court has convened and the Judge found him guilty and said he must pay the penalty - can you cite any actual law breaking by C&RT, where they have been prosecuted and found guilty ?

Edited July 22, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Higgs]

 

 

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What has ethics got to do with it ?

 

George Ward has broken the law - can you cite any actual law breaking by C&RT, where they have been prosecuted and found guilty ?

 

I don't think CRT are that bothered with how one views the law. They are able to circumvent it.

 

 

[Paul C]

There's a lengthy enforcement process, I can't find the flowchart (I am sure somebody better than me can, though) which involves 6 letters sent, over a number of months (maybe years). Here is an article which might help: http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/what-to-do-if-you-get-enforcement-letters-from-bw-such-as-a-cc1-or-pre-cc1/

 

I would support a simplification of the process on cost-saving grounds and also a simplification/"right sizing" of the complaints team too. Obviously it would need to be legal though. (I await Higgs to point out details on how the current, long-winded process isn't legal).

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

There's a lengthy enforcement process, I can't find the flowchart (I am sure somebody better than me can, though) which involves 6 letters sent, over a number of months (maybe years). Here is an article which might help: http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/what-to-do-if-you-get-enforcement-letters-from-bw-such-as-a-cc1-or-pre-cc1/

 

I would support a simplification of the process on cost-saving grounds and also a simplification/"right sizing" of the complaints team too. Obviously it would need to be legal though. (I await Higgs to point out details on how the current, long-winded process isn't legal).

 

I never said it wasn't legal. I merely say that the morals aren't an easy cut thing.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Paul C said:

There's a lengthy enforcement process, I can't find the flowchart (I am sure somebody better than me can, though)

 

I have it and tried to post it weeks ago, but it is in Powerpoint format and this forum will not allow PP to be posted.

 

I have posted some individual pages from it.

 

Here is the 1st page (of 13 pages) again ...................

 

 

 

[Higgs]

13 pages? Takes you ten years to read it.

 

 

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I never said it wasn't legal. I merely say that the morals aren't an easy cut thing.

 

 

 

 

 

There's always 2 sides to every story though. For example: 

 these kinds of things have similarities - but that video is less than 7 minutes long; not 10 years long.

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

13 pages? Takes you ten years to read it.

 

 

Exactly

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

 

 

I don't think CRT are that bothered with how one views the law. They are able to circumvent it.

 

 

 

In which case would you be kind enough to give examples of which laws they have circumvented and the details of how you consider they have done so.

 

(Remember - they have not broken or circumvented any laws by having a contractual requirement for marinas to ensure that boats are licenced.)

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

 

There's always 2 sides to every story though. For example: 

 these kinds of things have similarities - but that video is less than 7 minutes long; not 10 years long.

Exactly

 

I've noticed how the law is applied - or not.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case would you be kind enough to give examples of which laws they have circumvented and the details of how you consider they have done so.

 

(Remember - they have not broken or circumvented any laws by having a contractual requirement for marinas to ensure that boats are licenced.)

 

They are using the marina's authority, not their own.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

I've noticed how the law is applied - or not.

 

 

 

They are using the marina's authority, not their own.

 

 

 

I guessed it was your usual (totally false) hobby horse.

C&RT can apply conditions, within the contract, that allows a marina to operate - it is nothing to do with the 'waterways laws' that you appear to accuse C&RT of circumventing.

 

Unless you can come up with actual, real, examples we will just ignore your outrage.

[Paul C]

5 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

They are using the marina's authority, not their own.

 

 

 

Reponut (in my example) isn't a finance company, he's a free agent who is contracted by them. If he didn't enter a contract, they'd not use his services. In a similar way, the marinas are free agents who could choose to not enter a contract with CRT and not be connected to the canal.