Heating radiators

[Crobot]

Hi everyone,

 

I was hoping to hear some opinions and help clarify my currently very muddled head about how best to heat my narrowboat radiators.

 

A bit of background...

 

My boat is 60ft long with a solid fuel stove in the lounge at one end of the boat. This is lovely and heats this room well, however, the heat doesn't transfer enough down to heat the rest of the boat.

 

The boat also has an old Alde comfort 2928 boiler that heats up the water and at some stage must have had heated radiators too. They are no longer on the boat but the pipework remains.

 

As the boat is currently in a state of repair, I have been looking into options as to how best heat the radiators. Since we're going to be continuous cruisers, we were aiming to fit a calorifier that would heat most of our hot water from the engine, then use the Alde as a back up for water heating.

 

So the question is, do we continue to use the Alde boiler and reconnect up all the pipe work for the radiators, or look into other means of doing this..?

 

Obviously the Alde is already there and although have heard many reports about it using a lot of gas, it is already in place so would be the easiest option in a way to set back up and see how it goes...

 

Or do we outlay a much larger cost now for a diesel boiler (webasto or otherwise) which I am aware also can be troublesome for a variety of reasons.

 

Everywhere I read there are swathes of different opinions making it really hard to decipher how best to go. 

 

Although not fitted we do have a back boiler for the stove too which is another option.

 

I guess I'm just looking for other opinions and ideas on how best to move forward.

 

Many thanks for reading 🙂

 

 

 

[BEngo]

Solid fuel stove if you are liveaboard.  Much cheaper than diesel and more reliable than a Neverspacherkuni.   The Alde  when used at full chat needs a belt-fed gas bottle mechanism.  Some varieties of Alde are hard/ impossible to get parts for.

 

I would remove the Alde and re-use or  adapt the pipework to feed the sf stove with an additional calorifier loop. If you are DIY there  are loads of threads on hear regarding the pitfalls and planning.  Dshk has recent one, so has Watermao,  frinstance.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BEngo

[Tony Brooks]

As the 2928 is obsolete, spares are getting more difficult to source and the Alde 3000 series should not be used with copper plumbing, using the back boiler might be the better way to go. It would also free up the 2928 space for storage. The Alde pipework might not be large enough bore for a gravity circulated stove system and if the stove is at the front the boat trim (bow up) might cause problems for gravity circulation, the longer the boat the more difficult it might be - note the "mights". You will also need a header tank for the central heating system because that is built into the 2928.

 

Be aware that pump circulated stove systems become dangerous if the pump fails with a lit fire.

 

Also consider a twin coil calorifier so either the engine or the central heating system, of whatever sort, can also heat the domestic hot water, especially if you have enough solar charging that allows you to go for several days in summer without running the engine.

 

I fear it will be costly, whatever you do because a gravity system really needs 28 mm copper pipe for the main runs (others say 22 mm will do). Plastic pipe expands and sags too much what it gets hot. For longer term reliability and availability of spares, I think it is a question of spend now if you can afford it, rather than struggle later.

 

Since low sulphur diesel, the newer Webastos seem to be getting better reliability wise.

 

 

1 minute ago, BEngo said:

Solid fuel stove if you are liveaboard.  Much cheaper than diesel and more reliable than a Neverspacherkuni.   The Alde  when used at full chat needs a belt-fed gas bottle mechanism.  Some varieties of Alde are hard/ impossible to get parts for.

 

I would remove the Alde and re-use or  adapt the pipework to feed the sf stove with an additional calorifier loop. If you are DIY there  are loads of threads on hear regarding the pitfalls and planning.  Dshk has recent one, frinstance.

 

He indeed does, but I think a lot of his problems arise from boat trim and having the stove at the front.

[Bee]

You will get a variety of different opinions here (and everywhere else) I think the Alde might be a bit elderly now and calor gas is getting awfully dear. I would keep the stove in the front no matter what else you install as it will work even with flat batteries and no gas or diesel and a boat with no heating in winter is horrible. Webasto and similar heaters are flimsy things that use electricity and that is something to avoid if possible as keeping batteries charged in the winter is a problem in itself. Personally I would go with a back boiler in the stove, stoves can make dust and can have their own problems but I would still choose the stove. The fundamental problem with running rads from a stove in the front of the boat is getting the hot water to circulate. My last narrowboat was 62` with the stove at the front and the system worked well but of course the pipes had to run uphill towards the back of the boat which some people might find untidy. I would avoid using a pump if at all possible as you are then dependant on good batteries. There are lots of threads about gravity or thermosyphon systems and problems on here. Good luck

Edited March 14, 2023 by Bee

[Crobot]

Thanks so much to you all for your helpful comments. It's given me a bit to mull over and see where I'm at. Thanks again ☺️

[Cas446]

..and you can also use engine heat to heat the radiators when you are on the move. Free heat which keeps the boat warm during the day. Obviously only useful if you intend to cruise and avoids flue smoke in the face.

[LadyG]

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

As the 2928 is obsolete, spares are getting more difficult to source and the Alde 3000 series should not be used with copper plumbing, using the back boiler might be the better way to go. It would also free up the 2928 space for storage. The Alde pipework might not be large enough bore for a gravity circulated stove system and if the stove is at the front the boat trim (bow up) might cause problems for gravity circulation, the longer the boat the more difficult it might be - note the "mights". You will also need a header tank for the central heating system because that is built into the 2928.

 

Be aware that pump circulated stove systems become dangerous if the pump fails with a lit fire.

 

Also consider a twin coil calorifier so either the engine or the central heating system, of whatever sort, can also heat the domestic hot water, especially if you have enough solar charging that allows you to go for several days in summer without running the engine.

 

I fear it will be costly, whatever you do because a gravity system really needs 28 mm copper pipe for the main runs (others say 22 mm will do). Plastic pipe expands and sags too much what it gets hot. For longer term reliability and availability of spares, I think it is a question of spend now if you can afford it, rather than struggle later.

 

Since low sulphur diesel, the newer Webastos seem to be getting better reliability wise.

 

 

 

He indeed does, but I think a lot of his problems arise from boat trim and having the stove at the front.

Non expert here,  but I have a central stove, with back boiler the fat copper pipes run round the bathroom (small rad) and also bed niche, that is as far as the heat goes. So I would consider moving stove. I have to add a log and some coal at three am on very cold nights.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Non expert here,  but I have a central stove, with back boiler the fat copper pipes run round the bathroom (small rad) and also bed niche, that is as far as the heat goes. So I would consider moving stove. I have to add a log and some coal at three am on very cold nights.

 

 

 

 

Without diagrams or photos, it is very hard to comment. It is all to do with levels and pipe angles. It might be that you do not run the stove hard enough, but who knows.

 

Moving the stove will be disruptive and probably expensive, so as you have a gravity circulated heat dump that works I think I would be more inclined to think about a pump

[Mike Tee]

I’d fit a webasto diesel c/h unit to existing radiators and not even go near the solid fuel back boiler or Alde.

good - 2 forms of heating gives you a back up, diesel is quick and clean, avoids pump for back boiler, excellent in spring and autumn as c/h can be run just for a couple of hours

bad - expensive to fit, diesel will be a little more expensive to run compared to solid fuel per hour (but it won’t be on 24/7), uses up your electric so you won’t want to run it overnight unless hooked up to land line

[jonathanA]

just to throw something else in....  if you are looking at the cost of installing a webastard or ebersplutter it might be worth considering a diesel stove with back boiler (bubble, kubola etc) to replace the solid fuel stove.  you could fit a dedicated fuel tank for the stove meaning you can use red at 100% rebate for that no arguments ! wouldn't have the dust/mess/bags of coal on the roof for the solid fuel stove and assuming its a morso or similar you would get good money for it if you sold it..

guess you'd have to check on the output of the diesel back boiler to make sure it would be enough to keep you toasty etc... 

 

 

 

 

[rogerc]

On 15/03/2023 at 07:46, Cas446 said:

..and you can also use engine heat to heat the radiators when you are on the move. Free heat which keeps the boat warm during the day. Obviously only useful if you intend to cruise and avoids flue smoke in the face.

i have a £30 heat exchanger and it heats my 65 ft boat to 28C in 3-4 hours when the outside temp is 10C a big saving on fuel cost. i also have 2 calorifiers (second hand one for £50) i only use my  ex hire boat from March to end October so have only used by Alde gas boiler a couple of times in the last 10 years,