Not looking good for us

[Higgs]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Since the NAA fee is 9% of marina fees, this would imply a marina with an annual income of £2.8M, which means something like 1000 boats. Are there really any marinas on the canals this big?

 

Didn't even include the 9%. All based on licence fees paid on the terms and conditions of the marina, by a proportion of the moorers, that I've roughly calculated never leave private property. But the estimates are from the biggest inland waterway marina in Europe. 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Higgs

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

You're welcome!

No stop it!!

I was hoping somebody sane might respond, Higgs is on ignore so I don't give a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut what he thinks... 😉

 

If CART need to raise more money, surely increasing the NAA fee as well as the CART license fee is an obvious way to do it? Spread the pain as widely as possible... 🙂

Edited February 14, 2023 by IanD

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was hoping somebody sane might respond, Higgs is on ignore so I don't give a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut what he thinks... 😉

 

What did your last slave die of?

 

 

[Orwellian]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was hoping somebody sane might respond, Higgs is on ignore so I don't give a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut what he thinks... 😉

 

If CART need to raise more money, surely increasing the NAA fee as well as the CART license fee is an obvious way to do it? Spread the pain as widely as possible... 🙂

Somebody sane ... on here?!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was hoping somebody sane might respond, Higgs is on ignore so I don't give a flying (removed) at a rolling doughnut what he thinks... 😉

 

I think you might find masking your expletive with an asterix is still a breach of the forum R&G's

 

Something you are seemingly so keen to uphold.

[Higgs]

Just now, Orwellian said:

Somebody sane ... on here?!

 

Ok, rule yourself out. 

 

 

[MtB]

.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by MtB
Changed my mind

[Guest]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Don't flatter him....

 

 

Is this the type low level goading you were are great pains to accuse me of the other day?

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Don't flatter him....

 

 

Well, I'll welcome the moment you stop spelling words like a child. 

 

 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Somebody sane ... on here?!

Some seem to be -- though not the ones vomiting endless pointless (and usually wrong...) posts onto the thread... 😉

 

It's a pity that it's effectively impossible to have a sensible discussion about so many issues without this happening... 😞

Edited February 14, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

Some seem to be -- though not the ones vomiting endless pointless posts onto the thread... 😉

 

Rather like this one Ian?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It's a pity that it's effectively impossible to have a sensible discussion about so many issues without this happening... 😞

 

Its a pity you cannot see you are part of the problem.

 

Or was your 'donut' comment meant to be part of a 'sensible discussion'.

 

You seem to think you can make disparaging and off topic comments about others at will but get all upity when others do it.

 

 

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

Since the NAA fee is 9% of marina fees, this would imply a marina with an annual income of £2.8M, which means something like 1000 boats. Are there really any marinas on the canals this big?

I took it as a combination of NAA and licence fees on boats that don't leave the marina. Still seems high.

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I took it as a combination of NAA and licence fees on boats that don't leave the marina. Still seems high.

 

Yes I thought it were a reference to licensed boats that never left the marina, 

 

with an average of over £1000 for a boat license alone the sums stack up quickly. 
 

 

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I took it as a combination of NAA and licence fees on boats that don't leave the marina. Still seems high.

 

Quite a lot of boats never leave the marina, so maybe not so high, Mercia Marina claims to be the biggest and IIRC they have a few hundred boats, so if most don't leave the marina this would make up the number quoted.

 

I assume the objection is that -- like SORN on a car -- if you don't go out on the canals, you shouldn't have to pay a license fee.

 

The problem is that for this to work -- like road tax/SORN -- there has to be an effective method to detect cars/boats which go out but haven't paid. With cars this is easy, either via NPR cameras or police checks or both and numberplates and a database, but there's no equivalent on the canals -- and without this anyone can claim they never leave the marina and then use the canals with little or no fear of being caught.

 

So if you can't tell if boats use the canals or stay in the marina, if anyone pays the license fee then everybody has to -- and to those who stay moored, the obvious response is "well you could go out, what's stopping you, you've paid for it and you're in a boat designed for it"... 😉

Edited February 14, 2023 by IanD

[Cheshire cat]

Last summer we went up the Cheshire Locks the week before the canal was closed. The water was so low you could see all the piling. Except you couldn't. All the way from Wheelock to Harecastle Tunnel the piling has simply rotted away below water level. I don't mean it's got the odd hole in it. It was like a lace curtain.All that is holding things together is the tie rods and the whaling bar that you hook your nappy pins to. 

 

There are recognsed leaks along this length and no wonder. It's 7 miles or thereabouts. 14 miles to do both banks. That's a lot of steel to replace. Anyone want to price it up?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Quite a lot of boats never leave the marina, so maybe not so high, Mercia Marina claims to be the biggest and IIRC they have a few hundred boats, so if most don't leave the marina this would make up the number quoted.

 

I assume the objection is that -- like SORN on a car -- if you don't go out on the canals, you shouldn't have to pay a license fee.

 

The problem is that for this to work -- like road tax/SORN -- there has to be an effective method to detect cars/boats which go out but haven't paid. With cars this is easy, either via NPR cameras or police checks or both and numberplates and a database, but there's no equivalent on the canals -- and without this anyone can claim they never leave the marina and then use the canals with little or no fear of being caught.

 

So if you can't tell if boats use the canals or stay in the marina, if anyone pays the license fee then everybody has to -- and to those who stay moored, the response is "well you could go out, what's stopping you, you've paid for it and you're in a boat designed for it"... 😉

A rather lazy argument. There have always been marinas not subject to to NAA. Boats can come onto CRT waterways from other authorities waters and boats can be launched and recovered from land.

 

 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

Last summer we went up the Cheshire Locks the week before the canal was closed. The water was so low you could see all the piling. Except you couldn't. All the way from Wheelock to Harecastle Tunnel the piling has simply rotted away below water level. I don't mean it's got the odd hole in it. It was like a lace curtain.All that is holding things together is the tie rods and the whaling bar that you hook your nappy pins to. 

 

There are recognsed leaks along this length and no wonder. It's 7 miles or thereabouts. 14 miles to do both banks. That's a lot of steel to replace. Anyone want to price it up?

That'll be part of the non-safety-critical maintenance backlog then, which probably stands at around £200M today -- plus the same again for safety-critical, which is even more worrying... 😞

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

A rather lazy argument. There have always been marinas not subject to to NAA. Boats can come onto CRT waterways from other authorities waters and boats can be launched and recovered from land.

 

 

It's not lazy, it's reflecting reality -- the world as it is, rather than how people wish it was.

 

If CART decided not to charge the license fee to all the boaters who claimed -- note, "claimed" -- to never leave a marina, to keep the same income this would mean a big increase in the license fee for everyone who actually uses the canals and owns up to it. Which I guess means many (most?) boat owners on this forum.

 

Given all the protests about possible increases in the license fee, is this "fair"?

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

That'll be part of the non-safety-critical maintenance backlog then, which probably stands at around £200M today -- plus the same again for safety-critical, which is even more worrying...

 

 

Assets by category ......................

 

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

It's not lazy, it's reflecting reality -- the world as it is, rather than how people wish it was.

 

If CART decided not to charge the license fee to all the boaters who claimed -- note, "claimed" -- to never leave a marina, to keep the same income this would mean a big increase in the license fee for everyone who actually uses the canals and owns up to it. Which I guess means many (most?) boat owners on this forum.

 

Given all the protests about possible increases in the license fee, is this "fair"?

Is it fair CRT should charge a licence fee EA waters. The principal is just the same.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Assets by category ......................

 

 

 

So presumably the first class is safety critical (according to the report cited earlier), and the second and third classes aren't. Which includes bank protection, which includes the rotting pilings described above...

19 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Is it fair CRT should charge a licence fee EA waters. The principal is just the same.

Depends on your definition of "fair" -- I note you didn't answer my question, just responded with another one... 😉

 

If the license fee is removed for marina dwellers it's doubly bad for CRT -- not only do they lose the income but online moorings (with fee) become much less attractive, so CRT will have to reduce the fees for them (double whammy) and more people will move offline into marinas (triple whammy)... 😞

Edited February 14, 2023 by IanD

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Depends on your definition of "fair" -- I note you didn't answer my question, just responded with another one... 😉

I did not answer your question because it was rather stupid.  You might think the same of mine ...

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I did not answer your question because it was rather stupid.  You might think the same of mine ...

Why was it stupid? You seemed to be implying -- like Higgs -- that it was unfair for marina dwellers to pay the license fee, I was just asking you if this was what you believed or not. If you think it's unfair -- given the consequences of removing it -- then why not say so?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Assets by category ......................

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Assets by category ......................

 

 

 

 Numbers are of each type of principal asset can be found in annual reports.