Court rules : A floating caravan is not a boat so you cannot be evicted.

[Higgs]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

'cos the marina owner demands it (is is in a position to do so). 

 

Yes. You have to abide by the terms and conditions of the marina, when you're in the marina. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted,  

 

My boat got from Suffolk to Calcutt Marina like that .

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

My boat got from Suffolk to Calcutt Marina like that .

 

On the back of a camper van ?

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On the back of a camper van ?

No on a Motor vehicle so designed.  Lots of boats can be moved on trailers but how many are lived in with permission for mobile homes may be a stumbling block.

Edited February 7, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[David Mack]

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd argue that as two alternative modes of movement are given, they are the only options available that make it a caravan.

And I'd argued that you are wrong. Certainly those two options do make it a caravan, but nothing in the sentence excludes other modes of movement. The later text specifically excludes vehicles on rails and tents from the definition, and that exclusion could also have included boats had the legal drafters been so minded. So boats are not specifically excluded, and the position of boats is open to legal interpretation - as this case clearly demonstrates.

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

No on a Motor vehicle so designed.  Lots of boats can be moved on trailers but how many are lived in with permission for mobile homes may be a stumbling block.

 

The bit you are quoting is the definition of a self propelled caravan (a camper van).

 

Not the definition of the vehicle carrying or towing the caravan

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So boats are not specifically excluded, and the position of boats is open to legal interpretation - as this case clearly demonstrates.

 

 

Because something is not specifically excluded does not automatically mean it is included.

This type of discussion has been had many times previously with Nigel Moore a 'vociferous speaker'  on the subject.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Because something is not specifically excluded does not automatically mean it is included.

In this case it is neither specifically included nor specifically excluded. That's why there is scope for lawyers to argue. And neither you nor I has sufficient legal training and experience to pronounce definitively on the point!

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, David Mack said:

In this case it is neither specifically included nor specifically excluded. That's why there is scope for lawyers to argue. And neither you nor I has sufficient legal training and experience to pronounce definitively on the point!

 

But it is good that both points of view can be discussed without resulting to a 'you numpty you are just wrong' as some seem to do.

 

But it does appears that the court (or at least one Judge) has set a precedent.

[Tacet]

My guess is that a floaty boaty is not a structure, for the purposes of the definition in the Mobile Homes Act.  In this case it was decided that the Property was a caravan (on a float).  Not that the float and shed together comprised a caravan.

 

Whether an integral shed and boat (say a houseboat) could comprise a caravan has been left open.  As I say above, one would have to decide whether a residence only held in place by string is a structure.  The statutory definition of a caravan looks like it might, structure apart, be met by a boat but nevertheless, it is stretching the common understanding of "caravan" a long way.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

28 minutes ago, Tacet said:

My guess is that a floaty boaty is not a structure, for the purposes of the definition in the Mobile Homes Act.  In this case it was decided that the Property was a caravan (on a float).  Not that the float and shed together comprised a caravan.

 

Whether an integral shed and boat (say a houseboat) could comprise a caravan has been left open.  As I say above, one would have to decide whether a residence only held in place by string is a structure.  The statutory definition of a caravan looks like it might, structure apart, be met by a boat but nevertheless, it is stretching the common understanding of "caravan" a long way.

 

 

Is a converted bus, or horse box a caravan?

[magnetman]

I wonder how this works on tidal waterways where boats spend part of the time resting on land rather than floating.

 

And by extension what would happen if a boat was constructed with a wet ballast area then moored and the ballast filled up resulting in the craft resting on the ground and not the water. It seems that if this happened it would be a structure rather than a vessel. Presumably a vessel needs to be floating in order to be a vessel.

 

Is a sunken boat still a boat?

Canals and marinas are simply land which has been excavated and filled with water. Nothing more happening there.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Bear in mind that all this speculation of 'definition of a caravan' still depends on the caravan (boat ?) having a residential plot (mooring ?) with permisssion for use as a primary residence and a contractal agreement, to be able to invoke the protections afforded to permanent residents in caravans by the 1983 Mobile Homes Act.

[ditchcrawler]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Bear in mind that all this speculation of 'definition of a caravan' still depends on the caravan (boat ?) having a residential plot (mooring ?) with permisssion for use as a primary residence and a contractal agreement, to be able to invoke the protections afforded to permanent residents in caravans by the 1983 Mobile Homes Act.

I think that is a very important point for people living in boats ether in marinas or just bank side. I take it the Marina in question also has or had mobile homes?

[Arthur Marshall]

You could also have a lot of pointless fun by trying to define when something intended for one use becomes a different object when placed differently.

If you tethered a dinghy under a hot air balloon, is it still a boat when it's airborne, or is it a basket? After all, there were a lot of flying boats, maybe still are. Is that a boat or a plane? It's still a plane when it's landed on the lake.

It surely must come down the the primary purpose of the construction in question, and, possibly, whether it can still be used as such when sited in or on its proper medium. That's the difference between a caravan, a boat, and a carabo.

Take that caravan off its raft and it trundles away happily. Take your boat off its lorry and drop it on the road and it's no more use than a caravan dumped straight into the river.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It surely must come down the the primary purpose of the construction in question

 

The primary purpose of a residential caravan or residential boat is to be a residence - this is why Nigel Moore argued that legally a Livaboard can NEVER be a CCer. as their primary reason is to use the boat to live in, whilst a CCers primary (bona fide) use MUST be to 'navigate'.

 

The Davies case :

.......... but that he was committing a criminal act because he only complied in order to comply – hence was not 'bona fide' in what he was doing - Mr Davies' downfall, in the eyes of the judge, was that he was “clearly living on the boat”, hence that his purpose with the boat was therefore not for navigating.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

It isn't "having fun" considering the questions of security if tenure if a boat is the only place you have available to live in. It is actually rather important. 

 

As for what the boat was originally made for I wonder if there are any circumstances where it could be shown to be for living on. 

 

Perhaps by demonstrating the equipment contained in the boat one could show that it was built primarily for living on rather than as a pleasure craft. 

 

This is for boats with engines. Obviously there are houseboats but boats with engines seem a whole lot more sensible and lots of people (including me) live on this type of vessel. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

As for what the boat was originally made for I wonder if there are any circumstances where it could be shown to be for living on. 

 

 

I'm sure you are aware of the HMRC 'specifications' for a residential boat (They have been discussed ad-infinitum) and a residential boat of a certain minimum size being Zero rated for VAT

[Machpoint005]

A boat with an engine is a boat. No legal definition is needed for something so blindingly obvious. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Machpoint005
bloody autocorrect

[magnetman]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'm sure you are aware of the HMRC 'specifications' for a residential boat (They have been discussed ad-infinitum) and a residential boat of a certain minimum size being Zero rated for VAT

I was not referring to the houseboat question and yes I know only too well about the VAT question. 

 

I was specifically referring to the concept of having a boat which is not recordable as a houseboat but was in fact made to be used as a primary residence. 

 

I suppose without a framework to allow this it can't happen. 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:

A boat with an engine is a boat. No legal definition is needed for something so blindingly obvious. 

 

 

 

 

 

You can get a houseboat certificate for motorised boats if the boat meets certain criteria. 

I would argue that a boat is a boat regardless of whether it is powered by an engine..

 

Is a rowing boat not a boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I was specifically referring to the concept of having a boat which is not recordable as a houseboat but was in fact made to be used as a primary residence. 

 

All these 'zero rated' boats MUST be built to be a primary residence  otherwise they do not get the zero rating irresepective of their size.

 

There is a big difference between the HMRC definition of a Houseboat and their definition of a Residential Boat.

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

All these 'zero rated' boats MUST be built to be a primary residence  otherwise they do not get the zero rating irresepective of their size.

 

There is a big difference between the HMRC definition of a Houseboat and their definition of a Residential Boat.

 

The first bit is not correct because you can get a houseboat certificate (HMRC approval) for boats which were built as commercial craft and later CONVERTED for residential use. 

 

 

 

 

 

I also know of a boat which was originally intended to be a cruising widebeam but never had the engine fitted. The boat was sold and a later owner (on my suggestion) applied for and was granted zero rating for VAT and awarded a houseboat certificate by the CRT. 

 

The boat was not built for residential use. It was converted at a later date for this purpose. 

 

I suppose "built to be a primary residence" can be interpreted in different ways. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by magnetman
Autoincorrect

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

The first but is not correct because you can get a houseboat certificate (HMRC approval) for boats which were built as commercial craft and later CONVERTED for residential use. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would commercial craft not have been built subject to VAT, which the owner would then claim back from the HMRC ?

 

Is this not why you will see the sale of commercial and hire boats as being 'subject to VAT' ?

Thats how it worked when we had commercial property built.

 

But, as you point out in your example - you must have a houseboat certificate to show it is converted for residential use.

 

However we seemed to be a cross purposes as I thought we were discussing BOATS for residential use, not non-moving HOUSEBOATS which have very differing HMRC requirements.

 

HMRC Reference Notice 701/20 (April 2012) 7.1 What is a houseboat? A houseboat is defined for the purposes of VAT as being a floating decked structure which is designed or adapted for use solely as a place of permanent habitation and which does not have the means of, and which is not capable of being readily adapted for, self-propulsion.

 

You can still have a residential boat that has propulsion capability and meets the HMRC requirements for a Residential BOAT rather than a HOUSEBOAT.

[Paul C]

I don’t think the above posts are relevant - a “thing” can be both at once, being something doesn’t exclude it being something else. 
 

So a narrowboat for CCing can be both a residence and a pleasure boat.

[magnetman]

5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I don’t think the above posts are relevant - a “thing” can be both at once, being something doesn’t exclude it being something else. 
 

So a narrowboat for CCing can be both a residence and a pleasure boat.

 

 

I feel there is quite an interesting security of tenure question here. 

 

Obviously a boat can be a residence and a pleasure boat (my boats are) but the technical question of eviction or forced removal is interesting. 

 

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You can still have a residential boat that has propulsion capability and meets the HMRC requirements for a Residential BOAT rather than a HOUSEBOAT.

 

You can get zero rated for VAT on boats which have working engines if they were previously used as commercial craft. I think HMRC calls these houseboats but without knowledgeable people adding some information here this is probably inconclusive. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

You can get zero rated for VAT on boats which have working engines if they were previously used as commercial craft. I think HMRC calls these houseboats but without knowledgeable people adding some information here this is probably inconclusive. 

 

 

 

The engines must be removed or made inoperable before it can be classed as a (HMRC) houseboat.

 

C&RTs own 'Houseboat' definition is their own 'internal' definition (and nothing to do with the Government definition) & is very different in that it does allow for a houseboat to have  its own propulsion and, to be allowed to (infrequently) move.