RCD/RCR and older boats.

[Bod]

Following a thread in "New to boating" I feel there needs to be a bit of clarity for older boats.

Clearly 30+ year old boats do not come under either regulation.

A boat with a hull build date of 1998, and fit-out date of 1999, should this have any certificates?

This boat was purchased 10 years ago 4th hand, with no certificate's.  The opinion at the time,was if there had been an offence, then it was the first seller's offence, not any subsequent buyer.

The hull is a well known make, still in business, the fitter-out, apparently did a bunk, abroad shortly after this boat was completed. (only 1 other boat has been found, by this fitter.)

 

Would this boat be acceptable to go on brokerage, if required?

 

Bod

 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, Bod said:

A boat with a hull build date of 1998, and fit-out date of 1999, should this have any certificates?

 

Maybe!

 

Anything put into service before 16th June 1996 is definitely exempt.

 

There was a grace period for craft already in build when the 1996 regs came in force up to 16th June 1998.

 

Was/is your boat an owner fitout?  An annex 3 declaration on the bare shell and a self completed boat would have been legal if the fitter kept the boat personally for five years after it was launched.

 

[enigmatic]

Regardless of whether it should or shouldn't have paperwork compiled 23 years ago, I can't see brokerages or buyers turning it down if it's a good boat in good condition, especially not in this market

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Regardless of whether it should or shouldn't have paperwork compiled 23 years ago, I can't see brokerages or buyers turning it down if it's a good boat in good condition, especially not in this market

 

That depends on the brokerage and their understanding of their own duties and liabilities.  Most brokers and/or the directors of their company don't want to get fined or imprisoned ...

 

As time goes by, I think we will see more of the brokers following the regs.

 

British Marine are running regular seminars on legal obligations under the RCR for various bits of the industry, specifically including brokers.   

 

I can't see it stopping an unwary buyer making a private purchase anytime soon, but they may discover that they can't sell through a brokerage in the future without the correct paperwork.

 

It is possible to get a Post Construction Assessment done for a few thousand quid, but if the boat doesn't comply with the regs you could be into tens of thousands to make it comply.  A complete refit can cost more than a brand new fitout as there is so much extra labour.

 

Conversely, it could pass on all but minor changes. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Regardless of whether it should or shouldn't have paperwork compiled 23 years ago, I can't see brokerages or buyers turning it down if it's a good boat in good condition, especially not in this market

 

They are doing.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Was/is your boat an owner fitout?  An annex 3 declaration on the bare shell and a self completed boat would have been legal if the fitter kept the boat personally for five years after it was launched.

 

 

The person who brought the shell and did the fit-out is the ;egal 'builder' and responsible for the RCD.

 

Agreed IF it was an owner fit-out, but, if it was a commercial build (and we know he built at least two boats) then the option to build non-compliant was not open to him.

ANY one buying and fitting out to sell MUST ensure full compliance, hull must be CE marked and a certificate of conformity issued.

 

[Detling]

Whilton will probably carry on as normal

 

[David Mack]

My understanding is that the original RCD only applied when a craft was first placed on the EU market (I.e. a brand new boat or an owner-built/fitted boat being sold on).  For this first sale full RCD compliance was needed, except in the case of an owner build/fitout more than 5 years old.  Subsequent sales did not need to demonstrate RCD compliance or have any of the relevant paperwork. 

So with the new RCR rules from 2017 are older boat now required to retrospectively demonstrate compliance when being sold?  Or does that only apply to post 2017 boats?

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

My understanding is that the original RCD only applied when a craft was first placed on the EU market (I.e. a brand new boat or an owner-built/fitted boat being sold on).  For this first sale full RCD compliance was needed, except in the case of an owner build/fitout more than 5 years old.  Subsequent sales did not need to demonstrate RCD compliance or have any of the relevant paperwork. 

So with the new RCR rules from 2017 are older boat now required to retrospectively demonstrate compliance when being sold?  Or does that only apply to post 2017 boats?

 

Your understanding is correct, originally it was when first placed on the market or put in service once completed for the five year exemption.

 

The latest version of the regs requires any changes to a CE/UKCA marked craft to maintain that standard during any later work.  You can't ignore the CE mark when making changes and the paperwork must be provided.

 

Certain changes count as "major craft conversion" and require a post construction assessment on any CE marked craft. 

 

Most notable for canal boats is engine replacement.  It is no longer legal to buy a new shell and fit a vintage engine to it unless it qualifies as an accurate replica under the RCR which lookalike welded steel shells usually don't.

 

 

 

 

[Bee]

For some reason that I cannot understand boats are usually sold through a broker. This did not use to be the case on the canals until boat owning became an expensive 'dream' sold by professionals who now run the show. This is not the case in many other countries where selling a boat is often a private matter and only the newer, production line boats are on brokers lists. plenty of exceptions of course. If you buy and sell privately then the RCD is not something to bother about unless you are finicky about following the letter of the law. A boat safety certificate is a must unless the boat is a project and you can get it on hard standing or something. Others will have different opinions.

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Most notable for canal boats is engine replacement.  It is no longer legal to buy a new shell and fit a vintage engine to it unless it qualifies as an accurate replica under the RCR which lookalike welded steel shells usually don't.

 

Nor is it allowed to fit even an 'approved' engine if the HP is more than 10% higher than the original engine.

 

The 'major'works' is defined as not only the engine but anything that can affect 'safety' so includes stability (so a re-fit ? and most certainly overplating ?) Gas works and electrical re-wires and, potentially, fuel systems.

 

Just as with the BSS non-compliant works invalidates the BSS so it does for the RCR. The difference being that for the RCR it must be signed off with a PCA by an RCD qualified & approved surveyor (not just "wetestanyboat.com" advertising in the back of 'waterways world').

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

If you buy and sell privately then the RCD is not something to bother about unless you are finicky about following the letter of the law.

 

But rumours are around suggesting that insurers are now requiring RCD certificates - I am not surprised if they do as it seems that the whole boating industry has suddenly (within the last 2 or 3 years) woken up to what is actually written in law.

 

One member here has recently been involved as an 'expert witness' in 4 cases against manufacturers for non RCD compliance and the manufacturers have (expensively) lost every case.

[Bee]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Nor is it allowed to fit even an 'approved' engine if the HP is more than 10% higher than the original engine.

 

The 'major'works' is defined as not only the engine but anything that can affect 'safety' so includes stability (so a re-fit ? and most certainly overplating ?) Gas works and electrical re-wires and, potentially, fuel systems.

 

Just as with the BSS non-compliant works invalidates the BSS so it does for the RCR. The difference being that for the RCR it must be signed off with a PCA by an RCD qualified & approved surveyor (not just "wetestanyboat.com" advertising in the back of 'waterways world').

What we have to remember is that we are mostly talking about strange British oddities - narrowboats- that are, with very few exceptions, going to be churning up the mud on shallow canals at walking pace or less, that are massively strong, that are OK on canals and reasonable rivers, that are never going to be inspected by anybody re, the RCD, that  have there own, relevant, inspection regime and frankly, what the owner does to them is their business and no one elses.  The RCD provides little protection for the owner and having to get some sort of RCD approval for doing some sort of refit just serves to squeeze just a bit more of the life and joy out of boating.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Bee said:

What we have to remember is that we are mostly talking about strange British oddities - narrowboats- that are, with very few exceptions, going to be churning up the mud on shallow canals at walking pace or less, that are massively strong, that are OK on canals and reasonable rivers, that are never going to be inspected by anybody re, the RCD, that  have there own, relevant, inspection regime and frankly, what the owner does to them is their business and no one elses.  The RCD provides little protection for the owner and having to get some sort of RCD approval for doing some sort of refit just serves to squeeze just a bit more of the life and joy out of boating.

 

And remember that the RCR is a 'British Oddity' (The EU are still using the RCD).

 

I'd argue that the RCR actually gives the owner way more 'protection' that the 'BSSC Old Boys club' could ever do.

 

The BSS is simply concerned about the boat not causing damage to 3rd parties and it can harm, or even kill, the occupants and still have a BSSC. In many instances your boat will still get a certificate even when it is non-compliant as the BSS requirements are 'interpreted (or even ignored) by the surveyors.

 

The RCD is concerned around the construction of the boat and the safety for its users.

 

The BSS Mission Statement from the BSS website

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned equally by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

[Bee]

32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But rumours are around suggesting that insurers are now requiring RCD certificates - I am not surprised if they do as it seems that the whole boating industry has suddenly (within the last 2 or 3 years) woken up to what is actually written in law.

 

One member here has recently been involved as an 'expert witness' in 4 cases against manufacturers for non RCD compliance and the manufacturers have (expensively) lost every case.

If a manufacturer is up to mischief like this then that is some sort of fraud and they deserve it.  I suspect many new boats are falsely passed off as compliant. For the rest of us self certification is possible. I am not suggesting people should build terrible unsafe boats, they will anyway whatever the rules say. If you are a manufacturer and your boats come out of a mould and a production run is numbered in tens or scores then the RCD is not a huge burden, with narrowboats it is different you will struggle to find more than a handfull the same and after a few years and refits there will be very, very, few the same. There are frequent threads on here about swapping old engines, gearboxes, battery chargers and stoves for new or second hand items show that the RCD doesn't really work on narrowboats or canal boats. As for Insurance companies requiring an RCD I expect that will result in a lot of certificates being printed off and filled in over a coffee because there will be no other choice. Narrowboats are difficult to fit into a 'One size fits all' piece of legislation.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Bee
added a bit

[TheBiscuits]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And remember that the RCR is a 'British Oddity' (The EU are still using the RCD).

 

?

 

The Regulations have always been how the UK implemented the EU Directive.  That's how it worked.

 

Citation and commencement

1.  These Regulations may be cited as the Recreational Craft Regulations 1996 and shall come into force on 16th June 1996.

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Your understanding is correct, originally it was when first placed on the market or put in service once completed for the five year exemption.

 

The latest version of the regs requires any changes to a CE/UKCA marked craft to maintain that standard during any later work.  You can't ignore the CE mark when making changes and the paperwork must be provided.

Which doesn't answer my point. Before 2017 there was no requirement for the owner of a post 1996 boat to retain any of the RCD information pertaining to the boat, neither was there any requirement for subsequent modifications to meet RCD standards.  So do the 2017 rules place an obligation on such a boatowner, who does not have that documentation, or whose boat has undergone modification to retrospectively seek a PCA in order to sell (or even just use) that boat now?

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which doesn't answer my point. Before 2017 there was no requirement for the owner of a post 1996 boat to retain any of the RCD information pertaining to the boat, neither was there any requirement for subsequent modifications to meet RCD standards.  So do the 2017 rules place an obligation on such a boatowner, who does not have that documentation, or whose boat has undergone modification to retrospectively seek a PCA in order to sell (or even just use) that boat now?

 

I do not know the answer to that.

I thought that legislation cannot be applied retrospectively - but - who knows ?

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So do the 2017 rules place an obligation on such a boatowner, who does not have that documentation, or whose boat has undergone modification to retrospectively seek a PCA in order to sell (or even just use) that boat now?

 

No.

 

making available on the market” means any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the EU market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge and related expressions must be construed accordingly;

 

Is the bit that snares brokers.  The lawyers will get richer bickering about if it applies to a private sale.

 

The triggers for the legislation are when the boat is offered for sale so don't affect usage.

[GUMPY]

6 hours ago, Bod said:

Following a thread in "New to boating" I feel there needs to be a bit of clarity for older boats.

Clearly 30+ year old boats do not come under either regulation.

A boat with a hull build date of 1998, and fit-out date of 1999, should this have any certificates?

This boat was purchased 10 years ago 4th hand, with no certificate's.  The opinion at the time,was if there had been an offence, then it was the first seller's offence, not any subsequent buyer.

The hull is a well known make, still in business, the fitter-out, apparently did a bunk, abroad shortly after this boat was completed. (only 1 other boat has been found, by this fitter.)

 

Would this boat be acceptable to go on brokerage, if required?

 

Bod

 

Just grind off any HIN numbers re register it with EA or cart whichever it isnt and sell it as a 1995 boat

Mine was sold to the previous owner as a 1997 boat, but its not its 1993 the BW number proved that.

 

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Just grind off any HIN numbers re register it with EA or cart whichever it isnt and sell it as a 1995 boat

Mine was sold to the previous owner as a 1997 boat, but its not its 1993 the BW number proved that.

 

 

I was wondering about this too. An anonymous boat of indeterminate origin, obviously not new but freshly registered with a CRT number. Could a broker legally sell this?

 

And how about a similar boat gifted to someone? Would that need a RCR ticket?

 

 

[GUMPY]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I was wondering about this too. An anonymous boat of indeterminate origin, obviously not new but freshly registered with a CRT number. Could a broker legally sell this?

 

When I bought Parglena from ABNB in 2002 she had been on the Rochdale so not under BW control at that time. Built in 1996 the registration number is 2002 vintage from when I moved it onto BW waters. Since I sold  via another broker its been on the Thames so that the registration date is now 2012.

Idleness my previous boat has a 1989 reg despite being built in 1986 as it wasnt on BW waters before 89.

I suspect there are very many boats about where the age doesnt match the registration number age.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Loddon

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

making available on the market” means any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the EU market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge and related expressions must be construed accordingly;

 

Is the bit that snares brokers.  The lawyers will get richer bickering about if it applies to a private sale.

 

Does rather suggest that a sale between 2 private owners does not require compliance, as that sale would not be in the course of a commercial activity.  Different perhaps if one of the parties is a business. And a bit indeterminate in the case of brokers, since they are only introduction agencies, with the actual sale contract (as I understand it) being between seller and buyer.  If brokers get caught up as commercial parties, where does that leave others that provide similar introductions, such as Apolloduck, or the magazines that run small ads for private sales?

[Bod]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Which doesn't answer my point. Before 2017 there was no requirement for the owner of a post 1996 boat to retain any of the RCD information pertaining to the boat, neither was there any requirement for subsequent modifications to meet RCD standards.  So do the 2017 rules place an obligation on such a boatowner, who does not have that documentation, or whose boat has undergone modification to retrospectively seek a PCA in order to sell (or even just use) that boat now?

 

Yes, this is the question.

Where would hold the definitive answer?

 

Bod.

[Bee]

58 minutes ago, Bod said:

 

Yes, this is the question.

Where would hold the definitive answer?

 

Bod.

It might be that the definitive answer has yet to be determined. At the moment there is room for interpretation and argument so until some brave, wealthy fool decides to get the lawyers involved we might never know which in my view is the way it should stay.