Any advice please

[vanboosh]

I live on a 57' cruiser stern narrowboat with my girlfriend and we both mostly work from home. She moved onboard about a year ago and it definitely made things feel a bit smaller (I had to build a cupboard for her shoes to give you an idea) but we mostly love it. We have a dinette we work from, but only have laptops, so they get folded away in the evenings and put in a storage locker under it, so it doesn't feel 'officey'. Stuff I personally think help which I didn't really think about when buying: Cassette toilet, so we have loads of storage under the bed instead of a large waste tank. Top box (add as many as you like) for storing 'stuff' like paint, coal, hoses, etc. Decent solar! We use a fair amount of power with laptops, TV, Alexa type things, etc. I don't think we'd have managed without it. 

 

Internet wise, when we were cruising, I had two sims; EE and Three (we have to be connected for work) but really only needed the EE one for probably 90% of the time, averaging between 20-60mbps. Now we're permanently moored, I got a 5G router on Three and get between 120-400mbps depending on the weather, weirdly. We're considering a fat boat, but only because we're thinking about dogs and babies and we get a lot of visitors staying now due to the location. 

[Tracy D'arth]

On 03/12/2021 at 15:09, StephenA said:

 

There are areas of the Shroppie - like round High Onn that have very poor coverage if you are inside the boat..

 

I was simply pointing out that is something they needed to aware of, but apparently you are accusing me of lying.

 

I guess I should just shut up and not offer any advice.... and people wonder why people give on on this forum.

That is the safest action, no action!

The troll are getting revved up for Christmas cheer.

[IanD]

To try and take some heat out of the argument, I've put what I hope are some useful tips here...

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

My contribution is that my MIFI on 3, that is usually in a window, worked well enough over a lot of the system for emails but was useless for video in Calcutt marina. I was also useless for anything in a deep banks lock cut east of Leeds and even with the MIFI high up under the cratch was poor for email at The Blue Lias. The only true answer for the OP is make sure you have an external aerial, expect to find some moorings where there is no or poor internet and be prepared to move.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

My contribution is that my MIFI on 3, that is usually in a window, worked well enough over a lot of the system for emails but was useless for video in Calcutt marina. I was also useless for anything in a deep banks lock cut east of Leeds and even with the MIFI high up under the cratch was poor for email at The Blue Lias. The only true answer for the OP is make sure you have an external aerial, expect to find some moorings where there is no or poor internet and be prepared to move.

Preferably more than one... 😉

 

(or a setup like Poynting which has multiple aerials (up to 7 including 4 cellular, 2 Wi-Fi and GPS!) inside one box)

Edited December 10, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

I'd like to propose "MtB's law of boat internet".

 

"No matter what gear you get for your internet or what provider you use, in some places it will work and in other places it won't. "

 

Credit:

Inspired by WotEver's Law of Solar Panels. 

 

"No matter how little solar or how much solar you have, sometimes it will be more than you need, and other times not enough for your need."

[cuthound]

On 10/12/2021 at 15:53, MtB said:

I'd like to propose "MtB's law of boat internet".

 

"No matter what gear you get for your internet or what provider you use, in some places it will work and in other places it won't. "

 

Credit:

Inspired by WotEver's Law of Solar Panels. 

 

"No matter how little solar or how much solar you have, sometimes it will be more than you need, and other times not enough for your need."

 

I find that law applies to many boat related things, including beer tokens.

[Tony1]

On 02/12/2021 at 13:46, Stilllearning said:

Yes, this is spot on. You will get into the habit of only having a light on where you are actually needing it, and of course every bulb will be led. It is also remarkable how little electric one actually needs, as opposed to wants, to have.

Personal taste will dictate a lot of your choices, however, I would look for portholes, not windows , for several reasons. Much more secure, less heat loss, and they just look better, and a pigeon box or two in the roof lets  in light, aids ventilation and also break up a long empty roof line.

About BSS and flammable items near the engine: just move them on the day of the test!

 

 

Although I do love the greater security provided by portholes, I would never buy a boat that had them, because of the reduced light input. 

 

My boat has 4 windows on each side, but they are not very big- maybe 26 inches by 26 inches. What I notice in the darker seasons like now - or even in very overcast weather in autumn- is they they do not let in enough light to really illuminate the interior properly.

 

I've  thought many times about ways I could install wider saloon windows, and get more natural light in. I think it would really brighten up the place. 

 

The economic downside of smaller windows is that there is an energy cost for having your interior lights switched on for more of the day, and more days of the year. 

Its not huge, but its a factor.

 

But far more of a factor for me, is that I love natural light, and for me personally, with portholes the reduced light would really get me down. 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

 

I worked part time from my boat for a year, for which the internet (good enough for zoom calls) was essential. 

 

On my journey from Ely up to Nantwich I found very few places where there was zero signal, although in some places it was only just workable. 

 

What helped me was having two mobile providers whose networks didnt piggyback on each other *as three used to piggyback on EE,  I believe). 

So I bought O2 and an EE sims, each with about 100GB of data, and if one didnt have a signal the other one usually did. 

 

Luckily my boat came with some kind of repeater/antenna setup that gives a bit of a boost, and can make a crappy signal a bit better. 

One of those might be essential if you are truly CCing the network. If you are staying within a defined region, you'll come to know where the bad spots are anyway and just avoid them. 

 

Signal is very variable as people have said. I was fine for my first 250 mile sof cruising, but when I got onto the Llangollen I really struggled at times, and my antenna thing became a lot more useful.

In Swanley Bridge marina I could get almost no signal from O2 or EE, and the marina wifi was pretty slow. Elsewhere on the Llan it was a bit patchy in many places. 

I'm on the T+M at the moment, which so far has been mostly ok, but the last spot I was in near Anderton boat lift was very poor indeed- the EE phone was hanging in a window, with barely a single bar of signal, for the whole time I was moored. For the 'hanging' phone, I place it in a see-though mesh bag that allows you to see how many bars of signal there are on it.  

I didnt really have the option to move on from this spot and find a better signal, because I had some local business and urgent things I needed to do, that meant I had to be within easy reach of Northwich for a  few days. On the approach cruise I could see that almost all of the moorings handy for Northwich were occupied, so I couldn't take the chance of finding a mooring by moving a bit further on, as you often can do. 

There was also the issue that moving on meant looking at moorings close to built up areas, which I normally try to avoid. 

There might be a dozen different factors on your mind when deciding whether a mooring spot will do, and each factor will have its own 'weighting'.

Proximity to shops, to other boats, to built-up areas that might breed chavs, whether there is a nice view, or a noisy road nearby, the depth and extent of the mud on the towpath before you reach the nearest road, the phone signal, whether it is overlooked by a high embankment or trees that will stop the solar panels- and there are other things I cant think of at the moment which sometimes come into your thinking.

 

On the Llan the signal was so patchy that I ended up (like most boaters who need internet for work) developing a whole procedure when mooring up for the night, and especially when I knew I was working next day.

I would make sure the antenna was switched off so that I was getting only the 'unassisted' phone signal, and I would have both O2 and EE phones in my pocket as I slowed down to moor at a decent looking spot. 

As the boat slowed down I would step off, with both phones in hand, and begin to pace along the bank holding the centre line, watching for signal bars on the phones.

As soon as I saw a couple of bars appear on at least one phone, I knew I was ok, and would haul the boat to a stop there. 

I would also test the signal by opening youtube and starting a random video for say 15 seconds. 

 

In some locations it can be a bit of a palaver, but the next morning your boss will not show any mercy when your presentation falls apart or has to be called off because you are struggling to get enough signal on a rural section of canal. If you stay close to towns and villages like normal human beings, it will be much easier. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Tony1

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

Although I do love the greater security provided by portholes, I would never buy a boat that had them, because of the reduced light input. 

 

My boat has 4 windows on each side, but they are not very big- maybe 26 inches by 26 inches. What I notice in the darker seasons like now - or even in very overcast weather in autumn- is they they do not let in enough light to really illuminate the interior properly.

 

I've  thought many times about ways I could install wider saloon windows, and get more natural light in. I think it would really brighten up the place. 

 

The economic downside of smaller windows is that there is an energy cost for having your interior lights switched on for more of the day, and more days of the year. 

Its not huge, but its a factor.

 

But far more of a factor for me, is that I love natural light, and for me personally, with portholes the reduced light would really get me down. 

 

 

 

 

Houdini hatches in the deck head let in an amazing amount of light (drips of cold condensation too if not covered with something translucent; mine are covered in it down flourescent light diffusers in winter to make them drip free).

[Squires]

On 03/12/2021 at 15:43, doratheexplorer said:

Much more of a problem is finding decent moorings where you can stay for 14 days, get into the edge, and tie up to something secure

Totally agree.We've just travelled down the Shroppie, and having 2 dogs that get stubborn over crossing the slightest gap they can see down I've had to make a longer wider gangplank for mooring out in the sticks. Some have likened it to a drawbridge but it keeps the dogs happy 

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Houdini hatches in the deck head let in an amazing amount of light (drips of cold condensation too if not covered with something translucent; mine are covered in it down flourescent light diffusers in winter to make them drip free).

 

Unfortunately with so many solar panels now on the roof, the space for roof hatches is almost non-existent. 

 

[BilgePump]

16 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Houdini hatches in the deck head let in an amazing amount of light (drips of cold condensation too if not covered with something translucent; mine are covered in it down flourescent light diffusers in winter to make them drip free).

Houdini hatches in my limited experience are great when they're sound but an absolute pain if they begin to leak. The seals in the ones I've had leak in the past have been on old GRP cruisers / trailer sailers. A newly fitted hatch with sound seals should last a good amount of time but when it does fail it's all the drilling out of rivets, removal of headlining, new seal in the unit and putting it all back together, it's not a five minute job. I've got one to do at the moment. I have to leave a bowl under it and if I'm on the boat the drip is right over the feet end of my bunk 😞

[MtB]

9 hours ago, BilgePump said:

I've got one to do at the moment. I have to leave a bowl under it and if I'm on the boat the drip is right over the feet end of my bunk 😞

 

The simple solution to this is obvious. Swap sides with Her Indoors... 

[vanboosh]

On 13/12/2021 at 18:57, Tony1 said:

What helped me was having two mobile providers whose networks didnt piggyback on each other *as three used to piggyback on EE,  I believe). 

So I bought O2 and an EE sims, each with about 100GB of data, and if one didnt have a signal the other one usually did. 

 

I had two for the same reason, but just a heads up: Three and EE have their own networks. I found that when EE wasn't working, Three was pretty good, and vice versa.

 

Also, the MVNOs can be good. Smarty (uses Three network) does unlimited data for £18 a month with no contract, and UW (uses EE) does unlimited for £20 a month, but I got told off for breaching their fair usage policy after 4 months of going over 400GB a month (no such policy on Smarty). 

Edited December 15, 2021 by vanboosh

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, vanboosh said:

 

I had two for the same reason, but just a heads up: Three and EE have their own networks. I found that when EE wasn't working, Three was pretty good, and vice versa. Also, the MVNOs can be good. Smarty (uses Three network) does unlimited data for £18 a month with no contract, and UW (uses EE) does unlimited for £20 a month, but I got told off for breaching their fair usage policy after 4 months of going over 400GB a month (no such policy on Smarty). 

If you have two SIMs you can get routers that will automatically use both at the same time for data, without having to manually switch between them -- look for routers with "channel bonding" (may be more expensive and aimed at the business markets).

[Tony1]

22 minutes ago, vanboosh said:

 

I had two for the same reason, but just a heads up: Three and EE have their own networks. I found that when EE wasn't working, Three was pretty good, and vice versa. Also, the MVNOs can be good. Smarty (uses Three network) does unlimited data for £18 a month with no contract, and UW (uses EE) does unlimited for £20 a month, but I got told off for breaching their fair usage policy after 4 months of going over 400GB a month (no such policy on Smarty). 

 

That's really useful, thanks. Smarty sounds pretty good, as does UW (whoever they are).

Last time I looked (which was a few years ago to be fair), Three were piggybacking on the EE network, so no good for a contingency option. I had that in mind when I went for O2 as the backup option

 

I've found EE to be pretty decent in most places, but there were one or two spots on the Llan where only the O2 phone got a signal, albeit a very weak one. I tend to find that if an area had poor signal, both EE and O2 will be affected to some extent, and if one does have a signal, it wont be great, but maybe just tolerable.

 

My slight niggle with EE is that their plans only allow 100GB of hot-spotting from the phone, and if EE is your only option in a given area, that's not really enough data for a month. That was only an issue in a marina, to be fair, where you're stuck for a few months.

 

But if you're certain that Three now have their own physical infrastructure, then they are a decent shout as a backup, after my current contract expires.

I did hear some pretty bad reviews about Three (again going back a few years), but no idea what they're like now. 

It's amazing how long a bad reputation can stick with a company, even after they've become as good as their competition. I'm still wary of Three (clearly with no justification), and I can remember people still slagging off Skoda several years after they had started turning out good quality vehicles.  

 

PS- do you use Mifi devices? I tried a Huawei mifi for a few months, but the internal battery only lasted about 4 hours, so it would occasionally die in the middle of a Teams call. Just hot-spotting from the phone seems to get a slightly better signal, but more importantly if I hang the phone in the window or doorway to get a usable signal, the battery will last all day. Plus it gives me an alternative phone I can call from instantly, if the other phone doesnt have a signal.  

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Tony1

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

That's really useful, thanks. Smarty sounds pretty good, as does UW (whoever they are).

Last time I looked (which was a few years ago to be fair), Three were piggybacking on the EE network, so no good for a contingency option. I had that in mind when I went for O2 as the backup option

 

I've found EE to be pretty decent in most places, but there were one or two spots on the Llan where only the O2 phone got a signal, albeit a very weak one. I tend to find that if an area had poor signal, both EE and O2 will be affected to some extent, and if one does have a signal, it wont be great, but maybe just tolerable.

 

My slight niggle with EE is that their plans only allow 100GB of hot-spotting from the phone, and if EE is your only option in a given area, that's not really enough data for a month. That was only an issue in a marina, to be fair, where you're stuck for a few months.

 

But if you're certain that Three now have their own physical infrastructure, then they are a decent shout as a backup, after my current contract expires.

I did hear some pretty bad reviews about Three (again going back a few years), but no idea what they're like now. 

It's amazing how long a bad reputation can stick with a company, even after they've become as good as their competition. I'm still wary of Three (clearly with no justification), and I can remember people still slagging off Skoda several years after they had started turning out good quality vehicles.  

 

PS- do you use Mifi devices? I tried a Huawei mifi for a few months, but the internal battery only lasted about 4 hours, so it would occasionally die in the middle of a Teams call. Just hot-spotting from the phone seems to get a slightly better signal, but more importantly if I hang the phone in the window or doorway to get a usable signal, the battery will last all day. Plus it gives me an alternative phone I can call from instantly, if the other phone doesnt have a signal.  

 

 

Get a dual-SIM router with external aerials, if possible one that supports channel bonding. You'll get far more reliable reception...

[vanboosh]

I've heard Three's customer service is pretty terrible so I don't think their reputation is entirely undeserved, but I've not had any problems since moving to them permanently now we're on a mooring. Also Smarty (using Three) was brilliant and I'd happily move back to them if they offered 5G, but weirdly I don't get Three 4G signal here. I used a TP Link 4G router so I could attach an external antenna - although never needed to use an antenna until we got to London and moored next to a steep bank. Now I've got a Huawei 5G router that comes with Three's 5G home broadband contract but I had to mount that in a window. 

 

P.s. UW Is Utility Warehouse 😊

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Get a dual-SIM router with external aerials, if possible one that supports channel bonding. You'll get far more reliable reception...

Yes, definitely thought about this, and would do this if we were CCing again.

[Tony1]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Get a dual-SIM router with external aerials, if possible one that supports channel bonding. You'll get far more reliable reception...

 

Do the SIMs have to be inserted into these routers? 

I ask because my EE phone is my primary comms device. It acts as a satnav when I'm biking into a new village or town, it has OS maps for when I do a walk, it acts as a portable audio device to stream podcasts as I move around the boat, and very rarely it gets used as an actual phone. 

Its not really feasible to move the SIM between devices on a daily basis, si any solution has to work with the SIM in some kind of remote way.

I think what I have now is a repeater, and there is a 4ft aerial that slots into a socket on the front cabin roof. Its certainly not brilliant as a booster, but it has sometimes helped to turn a single bar into two, or three- which I can then use.  

 

 

[IanD]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

Do the SIMs have to be inserted into these routers? 

I ask because my EE phone is my primary comms device. It acts as a satnav when I'm biking into a new village or town, it has OS maps for when I do a walk, it acts as a portable audio device to stream podcasts as I move around the boat, and very rarely it gets used as an actual phone. 

Its not really feasible to move the SIM between devices on a daily basis, si any solution has to work with the SIM in some kind of remote way.

I think what I have now is a repeater, and there is a 4ft aerial that slots into a socket on the front cabin roof. Its certainly not brilliant as a booster, but it has sometimes helped to turn a single bar into two, or three- which I can then use.  

 

Yes, the SIM has to be in the router.

 

I hope that what you don't have is just an RF signal booster which picks up the signal from outside and re-radiates it inside -- these are illegal for very good reasons... 😞

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes, the SIM has to be in the router.

 

I hope that what you don't have is just an RF signal booster which picks up the signal from outside and re-radiates it inside -- these are illegal for very good reasons... 😞

 

No idea what it is tbh- the name on it is 'mobile repeater'. 

It came with the boat so I sort of assumed it was a legal gizmo, but if that's not the case I'll have to make some plans for an alternative. 

 

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

No idea what it is tbh- the name on it is 'mobile repeater'. 

It came with the boat so I sort of assumed it was a legal gizmo, but if that's not the case I'll have to make some plans for an alternative. 

 

 

Some are legal (see below) but there are/were a lot of illegal ones on the market -- they work for you but can screw up reception for anyone else nearby. They're unlikely to be legal on a boat anyway, see comments below:

 

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/features-and-news/mobile-phone-repeaters

Static indoor repeaters

The first are known as static mobile phone repeaters. These are for indoor use, and are designed to improve coverage inside peoples’ homes, offices and other buildings. They must not be used in other situations.  For example, while in motion, such as in a vehicle.

The ‘downlink’ from these repeaters (the part that connects the repeater to the mobile phone) must not be used outside or in semi-open locations. It must be used inside a building which has a ceiling or a roof.

The ‘uplink’ (the part that connects the repeaters to the mobile phone network) can be used either indoors or outdoors.

Low gain in-vehicle repeaters

The second type of repeater, known as low gain mobile phone repeaters, are allowed to be used to help coverage inside’ cars and other road vehicles - but not in boats or static caravans.

Edited December 15, 2021 by IanD

[BilgePump]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The simple solution to this is obvious. Swap sides with Her Indoors... 

Ha ha. You don't think I'm daft enough for there to be a her indoors do you. Nah, boating for one suits me fine most of the time. The boat though is only a little GRP 19' cruiser with a V berth in the bow. The drip is over the bit where the two meet so swapping sides wouldn't help. The other bunk's also currently serving as a shelf for various junk.

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Some are legal (see below) but there are/were a lot of illegal ones on the market -- they work for you but can screw up reception for anyone else nearby. They're unlikely to be legal on a boat, see comments below:

 

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/features-and-news/mobile-phone-repeaters

Static indoor repeaters

The first are known as static mobile phone repeaters. These are for indoor use, and are designed to improve coverage inside peoples’ homes, offices and other buildings. They must not be used in other situations.  For example, while in motion, such as in a vehicle.

The ‘downlink’ from these repeaters (the part that connects the repeater to the mobile phone) must not be used outside or in semi-open locations. It must be used inside a building which has a ceiling or a roof.

The ‘uplink’ (the part that connects the repeaters to the mobile phone network) can be used either indoors or outdoors.

Low gain in-vehicle repeaters

The second type of repeater, known as low gain mobile phone repeaters, are allowed to be used to help coverage inside’ cars and other road vehicles - but not in boats or static caravans.

 

I'll have to see if I can find out the manufacturer name and get some more info on it. To be honest its a nice-to-have most of the time (no need for it at the moment, for example, and on my last mooring at Anderton it did nothing to improve things). 

I wonder if a boat roof counts as a 'ceiling or roof'? Certainly it seems to obstruct the phone signal pretty well at times. 

 

The last owner struck me as a very straight and honest guy, and I'd be surprised to find he had a dodgy device installed, but of course the laws (or their interpretation) might have changed in the five years or more since it was put in.