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Can I escape from Sheffield and get far in a narrow boat or only a grp cruiser?


Polly Perkins

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A lot of the enjoyment is also to do with location, Sheffield would not be suitable for regular 4 day trips, especially if getting on in years. 
  An elderly chap bought a boat from the  Marina in Sheffield a few years ago and also took on a mooring, both him and his wife were over 65 years of age, first time they took the boat out he came back complaining about the locks and how difficult they were, they got as far as Eastwood and had enough on their first trip and he said if he knew the locks were there he wouldn’t of bought the boat. I looked at him and said the locks had only been there for 200 years and weren’t exactly a new addition to the Canal. He moved the boat the other side of the Tinsley flight and it was sold within 6 month. It’s not all “Rosie & Jim” especially when your getting on in years and the Tinsley flight isn’t getting easier with old age too.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

What's happened to the OP?

Has she run off squeaking?

Are we so intimidating?

Hopefully doing some more research about the area and her mooring and cruising options.

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4 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

What's happened to the OP?

Has she run off squeaking?

Are we so intimidating?

Haha, no, I've been reading with great interest, taking it all in. Yeah I've been down at the quay meeting people who live on board etc. I think all the above is great advice and Doncaster isn't far at all. 

I'm sure I will fall in love with a boat and go for it at some point, but until them I'm learning as much as possible from wise advisors like yourselves. Thanks v much for all the useful info, feedback and frivolity too, all really helpful stuff, very much appreciated.

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You could have a look at keeping a boat on the Chesterfield canal,  not much further than Doncaster but another world for a beginner. 

Small locks, plenty of places to go for a weekend trip that aren't as grim as those on the SSYN, and a grp (narrow) would be ideal. Ok, it's heavily locked at the end nearest to Sheffield but look at somewhere like Clayworth boat club,  great for easy trips either direction and cheap moorings too.

Yes it's still weedy in summer and a bit shallow in most places,  but at least it only comes up to your waist when you fall in.

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On 24/09/2021 at 20:04, Tony1 said:

 

You don't need a GRP cruiser to allow navigation of those waterways, but there is another reason you might consider accepting the various compromises of a GRP boat- and that is price.

 

Here is a GRP boat that looks like it will get you afloat for around £20k, and hopefully will not present too many repair/renovation challenges:

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/viking-cruisers-26-cc-hi-line-for-sale/640416

 

But the living space is compact; the water and fuel storage is very limited, and there is no stove for the winter. 

 

The more spacious option of a narrowboat will have bigger water and fuel tanks, and a solid fuel (or diesel) stove as well, which most people feel are a real help in being comfortable during the winter. But a narrowboat could cost more. 

 

Tbh its a huge subject area, and there are so many issues you'll have to take into account, that for the time being I would only say- keep asking questions in places like this, and dont rush into a decision for the time being. 

 

An extremely tidy looking cruiser. Good find.

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56 minutes ago, MrsM said:

An extremely tidy looking cruiser. Good find.

 

Thanks Mrs M, and I have to admit that my interest in these is because at one point I did think long and hard about a GRP cruiser.

The viking 32cc would've been my ideal choice- even an extra 4ft of living space matters if you're a liveaboard.

I really like the fact that the hulls seem to last forever, they never rust and they dont need blacking every 2 years, which is a pretty major saving, plus you can U turn in smaller spaces, junctions perhaps...? 

I even thought about one of those wide-beam 40ft ones cruising the eastern waterways, but until I've seen more of the system, I'm not limiting myself only to the wide waterways.

I'd never have seen the lovely Llangollen, or the Shroppie, if I'd gone down the wide beam route.

But ultimately, what persuaded me to opt for a narrowboat was the sheer space, and the facilities. I think the water tanks even on a viking 32cc are maybe 50 or 100 litres, which would see me at the waterpoint every few days (and using fuel to get there, btw).

Also, what if some speeding idiot in a narrowboat bumped into you? I've been hit twice in the 6 months I've been on the Llan, and if I'd been in a GRP I might've had significant repairs to make- certainly on the most recent occasion.

Most dont have stoves, and since I had my stove fitted I've come to view it as an essential item, and would never consider diesel CH only during the winter. 

In the summer I think they'd be a pretty decent option for the odd week's cruise or a long weekend, but as I'm a CCing liveaboard, once things get cold and muddy, you can't beat the coal stove, the big water tanks, and the comfort of a narrowboat. 

It's interesting to consider that many house-dwelling people would not dream of making the lifestyle and comfort compromises needed to CC even on a narrowboat. 

So I guess if I think a GRP cruiser is going to be a pretty hardcore proposition in the winter, most civilians would think it to be an unspeakably grim hardship.

But thats why they are civilians, not boaters 😀

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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A good summary of boat v cruiser Tony1. We have a NB and use it a lot but if we only wanted to potter or have a boat for weekends and short holidays only then I think you have found a good one.

 

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17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

So I guess if I think a GRP cruiser is going to be a pretty hardcore proposition in the winter

 

Like all boats, if they are 'set-up' correctly GRP can be used all year around.

 

Ours is insulated and has blown air diesel heating ( a far cleaner and more versatile system than coal) the Eberspacher is switched on when we board and turned off when we leave, , in the meantime it runs on a thermostat so keeps the whole boat (we have 7 heat outlets throughout the boat) at a comfortable temperature night and day.

If it gets a little cool in an evening, or early morning just turn the thermostat up a click or two and within seconds you have heat - let your fire go out and it can be 'hours' before you radiators get hot enough to heat the boat.

 

No carrying and storing bags if coal, no ashes to clean out, no going out in the snow to fetch another scuttle full of coal.

 

Its a good job we are not all the same.

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Like all boats, if they are 'set-up' correctly GRP can be used all year around.

 

Ours is insulated and has blown air diesel heating ( a far cleaner and more versatile system than coal) the Eberspacher is switched on when we board and turned off when we leave, , in the meantime it runs on a thermostat so keeps the whole boat (we have 7 heat outlets throughout the boat) at a comfortable temperature night and day.

If it gets a little cool in an evening, or early morning just turn the thermostat up a click or two and within seconds you have heat - let your fire go out and it can be 'hours' before you radiators get hot enough to heat the boat.

 

No carrying and storing bags if coal, no ashes to clean out, no going out in the snow to fetch another scuttle full of coal.

 

Its a good job we are not all the same.

 

I certainly can't argue with you about hassle of obtaining up to 10 25kg bags of coal each month, and hauling them around the boat. I'm not a fan of that. 

 

But that said, if you can use the fuel boats, that does minimise the 'gathering' bit, although it does mean having several bags of coal on the roof, in the cratch, etc. 

 

I used my diesel CH (radiators, but blown air) in Oct and Nov last year whilst CCing, and I found the boat generally felt a bit damp and cold in the mornings. I set the CH to come on early, but the racket it makes put me off a bit, especially if there was a another boat moored close behind. 

But the transformation when the coal stove was put in was a game changer. Immediately the boat felt drier at all times (none of the early morning dampness in the clothes I'd left out), and the humidity levels plummeted from 60% or more to about 40-45%. Maybe even too dry at times. 

I did a few social trips by bike to visit boater chums during December, and although my legs felt frozen when I got back, the stove had kept the boat warm and welcoming. It was almost worth the trip just for the pleasure of getting back into the boat at 9pm on a freezing December night.

 

I am a coal convert, I must admit, but I can understand those who are not fans. No matter how careful I am, I can never stop some dust escaping, so there is the constant job of keeping on top of that.

Each to his own, of course, and I think blown air is a great option (and deals with the humidity issue as well), but I bloody love that coal stove. I think its become almost a religious thing. I may start sacrificing small mammals to please the Fire Gods.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I am a coal convert, I must admit, but I can understand those who are not fans. No matter how careful I am, I can never stop some dust escaping, so there is the constant job of keeping on top of that.

Each to his own, of course, and I think blown air is a great option (and deals with the humidity issue as well), but I bloody love that coal stove. I think its become almost a religious thing. I may start sacrificing small mammals to please the Fire Gods.

 

We have had fires and radiators on a number of boats and it works well, the major downside is in Autumn and Spring when its not cold enough during the day to need the fire on, but the evenings and mornings can be a bit chilly. Click the Eber on and in 2 minutes the boat is warm.

 

Its sorta like when we had our house built, the architect wanted us to have underfloor heating, but eventually agreed that it was not really practical as you needed to put the heating on 2 days before it got cold to give the 'slab' chance to warm up, and conversely, if it turned warm, you had to open the doors and windows because the slab you heated up for the cool weather, was now giving its heat up and the weather was warmer.

 

When I want heat - I WANT IT NOW !.

The Eber also has a cool air fan capabilty taking cooler air from outside and blowing it around the boat setting up a 'circulation' and moving the hot air out of the boat.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We have had fires and radiators on a number of boats and it works well, the major downside is in Autumn and Spring when its not cold enough during the day to need the fire on, but the evenings and mornings can be a bit chilly. Click the Eber on and in 2 minutes the boat is warm.

 

Its sorta like when we had our house built, the architect wanted us to have underfloor heating, but eventually agreed that it was not really practical as you needed to put the heating on 2 days before it got cold to give the 'slab' chance to warm up, and conversely, if it turned warm, you had to open the doors and windows because the slab you heated up for the cool weather, was now giving its heat up and the weather was warmer.

 

When I want heat - I WANT IT NOW !.

The Eber also has a cool air fan capabilty taking cooler air from outside and blowing it around the boat setting up a 'circulation' and moving the hot air out of the boat.

 

 

 

I've not lit my stove yet, not since early May. If things get a tad chilly in the morning or the evening, I give it 30 mins of the diesel CH, and at the moment that seems to be enough. 

 

I think if the OP does get a GRP cruiser, maybe one of those inexpensive blown air diesel heaters would be worth a thought...

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I've not lit my stove yet, not since early May. If things get a tad chilly in the morning or the evening, I give it 30 mins of the diesel CH, and at the moment that seems to be enough. 

 

I think if the OP does get a GRP cruiser, maybe one of those inexpensive blown air diesel heaters would be worth a thought...

 

 

 

But if you are on a mooring with leccy, the cheapest form of heating is an electric 'fire'.

 

A 1kw electric fire will cost around 20p per hour to run and it is certainly sufficient to warm the boat. The Eber uses between 0.4 and 1 litre of diesel per hour equating to between 40p and £1 per hour to run.

 

We have an Aldi two-bar electric fire which is 400w or 800w, once it is warm with the two-bars (800w) click it down to one bar (400w) and that is sufficient to keep it warm and in effect is just keeping up with the loss of heat thru the windows etc. It is then costing about 8p per hour to keep a constant, warm. temperature,

 

We have had fires, we like fires, but for ease of use and conveneience on our GRP we have diesel and electric.

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This thread appears to be developing into a fairly in-depth discussion around heating systems, so I might as well ask here as the question will be very similar to the requirements for a GRP cruiser or a steel narrowboat in the OP's price range.

 

30' of cabin, split either side of an engine room which takes 8' of that, and below standard width, so space is at an absolute premium. The whole inside is spray-foamed to 50mm.
There is a single coil calorifer fitted to the engine and also a stove in the back cabin but that's it at present.

The boat is for leisure use rather than liveaboard but it would be nice to be able to do that all year round without freezing. The main enjoyment is cruising rather than just sitting on it, but like any lower priced boat with an owner who doesn't have infinitely deep pockets, there will also be time spent working on it so static for a day or two at a time. Since it is not liveaboard, the mooring costs have been kept down by not having a shoreline, so it has to be self-contained.

There is therefore a need for heat and hot water which is ideally not dependent on running the engine, through a compact system which does not break the bank.

 

Options so far appear to be a diesel water heater (Webasto type) plumbed into the same coil in the calorifer, running this on to twin pipe fin/tube radiators with thermostatic control. The heater and the engine would either need to be parallel with either a manual control valve or thermostats between the two, or series and accept heating of the engine block by the diesel heater which may not be a bad thing as a heat store/reducing wear, particularly since the skin cooling thermostat would then function as an overload switch.

 

Other alternative would be a Morco water heater and then heat either with bulkhead mounted marine stoves (difficult to keep in? expensive?, need somewhere to keep fuel) or a diesel air heater which seems to be way cheaper than the water heating version for no apparent reason, but this approach means sacrificing more of the very limited space and cutting extra holes for exhausts.

 

Thoughts?


Alec

Edited by agg221
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19 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Other alternative would be a Morco water heater and then heat either with bulkhead mounted marine stoves (difficult to keep in? expensive?, need somewhere to keep fuel) or a diesel air heater which seems to be way cheaper than the water heating version for no apparent reason, but this approach means sacrificing more of the very limited space and cutting extra holes for exhausts.

 

Go with the Morco for hot water.

A blown air diesel heater uses a lot of  electricty - mine use a continuous 10 amps when it is running, so at least 100Ah per day - how are you going to charge your batteries ?

You will need to run your engine for 3 or 4 hours per day just to replace what has been used by your heater.

 

It doesn't worry me as we have twin 70a alternators and cruise pretty much everyday for several hours, have a 1200Ah battery bank so can survive for a few days without moving and have a generator to run the battery charger if needed. When on our mooring we have leccy 'on draught'.

 

Your simplest way would be to use a small solid fuel stove such as the 'pipsqueak' it is designed for small spaces (boats) and is 3.5Kw. We had one on a 30 foot NB and didn't need any radiators so it only took up a space about 2' x 2'. The tiles are 4" squares.

 

This was it (the 'door' is 4" wide and the firebox is about 8" square. did a trial and got the boat up to over 50 degrees C, couldn't breathe, gave in and opened all the doors and windows)

 

Pipsqueak Small Cast Iron Stove – Pipsqueak Stoves (pipsqueak-stove.com)

 

Technical Info:
Height 440mm
Width 310mm base
200mm stove
Depth 380mm base
180mm stove
Flue size required 80mm 

 

IMG_20130912_123236.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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5 hours ago, Polly Perkins said:

Haha, no, I've been reading with great interest, taking it all in. Yeah I've been down at the quay meeting people who live on board etc. I think all the above is great advice and Doncaster isn't far at all. 

 Doncaster would be far better, the moorings come with car parking, also about 10 mins from train station. You could go out most weekends especially during the Summer and be back on your moorings and home for Sunday evening, something you can’t do in Sheffield.  You can go for an hour or two in both directions and be in the country or near to a pub and just relax without the thought of doing the Tinsley flight.

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21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Go with the Morco for hot water.

A blown air diesel heater uses a lot of  electricty - mine use a continuous 10 amps when it is running, so at least 100Ah per day - how are you going to charge your batteries ?

You will need to run your engine for 3 or 4 hours per day just to replace what has been used by your heater.

 

It doesn't worry me as we have twin 70a alternators and cruise pretty much everyday for several hours, have a 1200Ah battery bank so can survive for a few days without moving and have a generator to run the battery charger if needed. When on our mooring we have leccy 'on draught'.

 

Your simplest way would be to use a small solid fuel stove such as the 'pipsqueak' it is designed for small spaces (boats) and is 3.5Kw. We had one on a 30 foot NB and didn't need any radiators so it only took up a space about 2' x 2'. The tiles are 4" squares.

 

Thanks for that. I hadn't appreciated the electrical power requirement for the blown air heater. We have 900Ah of batteries (nominally, although condition remains to be seen) however using something which does not drain them would be desirable. It's a single alternator and I have not yet investigated what it delivers. I intend to add 100W or so of solar to trickle charge when we are away from the boat but that is just to keep it topped up and make sure the pumps can run if necessary - it's hardly going to make a meaningful contribution when the boat is occupied, although it might slow down the drain rate on the batteries a bit if we have days when we are immobile, e.g. when the engine is in bits for servicing or painting.

 

The stove idea looks good but we don't have 2' x 2' of space without removing something such as a bed, which is not a popular idea! There is also the challenge of finding somewhere to put a Morco but that may be more achievable with some creativity. Continuing the idea of stoves further, I have been looking at the smallest Refleks gravity fed diesel heater. We have a day tank so fuel feed is not a problem. I can't find any definitive installation instructions for the distance from non-flammable material. It requires 12" from flammable material, but the flue, which is the hottest part, is only specified as needing to be 100mm from non-flammable material. There are indications that the twin wall design actually keeps the outer surface cool enough to touch, in which case there may actually not need to be any gap for safety reasons, but it would still need to comply with the BSS. I found reference on another post to BSS section 8.4 and 8.5 but I can't find an online version of installation requirements. Even if it does need 100mm of gap, at only 160mm diameter it fits within 260mm square (with the corner chopped off too) which is achievable I think. I need to find out whether that is both safe and compliant. There appears to be a version with a heating coil which could be fed to the calorifer, and a more attractive version with a window, but not a version with both, although it looks like a coil could be added, given how simple the design is, just slightly less efficient as the coil would have to go around the window. That would enable hot water and could use the engine block as a heat sink which would keep the boat warm and would do the engine some good on start-up.

 

Any reasons why the above would be a bad idea?

 

If the discussion continues further on this I will start a new thread around my own boat and move it there - it's going to need one anyway!

 

Alec

 

 

Edited by agg221
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13 hours ago, agg221 said:

 

If the discussion continues further on this I will start a new thread around my own boat and move it there - it's going to need one anyway!

 

Alec

I would start a new Post as the last few long replies to this one has nothing to do with the OP’s question, so I imagine this one has been killed off.

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On 24/09/2021 at 19:42, Polly Perkins said:

Hi all, total newbie here, finally saved enough to consider boating options and need advice which may well be tedious for seasoned canal dwellers. 

My gran was Crystal Hale, who set up the Islington Boat club and saved the canal basin from developers and her father was A.P.Herbert, author of The Water Gypsies. You can see why my mid life crisis time has driven me back to the water's edge!  Now my son has grown up and I have time for myself I'm really keen to get back on the cut. I'm kind of desperate to. 

I live and work in Sheffield so no decent rivers. There is the tinsley canal etc but I don't think you can get very far without involving a river or two. 

I'm looking for adventure and want to get to know the UK better. I love water and boats, miss the River Leam and the Thames, which I grew up by and the yearning is now urgent. 

 

I have to be in Sheffield most of the time still,  but can take long breaks and work from away enough to make it worth it. I'd like to take regular 4 days breaks, on my own or with 1 other. 

I've only ever been a passenger in an NB and a GRP so I'm looking for advice on how to sensibly get started.

 

With the Sheffield issue, is it possible to travel far on an NB from here or would I need a GRP cruiser so as to include rivers if I want to get out of Yorkshire? How limiting would a small NB be?  

 

It's my first question because I imagine the training will be quite different.

Is this the right way around to be thinking about it or is there a better newbie approach? 

Thanks for any responses, sorry if I'm boring you. 

I have to say getting a narrow beam GRP seems the worst of all worlds apart from one thing : there is one advantage of a GRP type cruiser, you get a roof. Thus, if it's raining you can still cruise along whilst remaining dry, and warm in fact. Till you get to a lock.....

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3 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

I have to say getting a narrow beam GRP seems the worst of all worlds apart from one thing : there is one advantage of a GRP type cruiser, you get a roof. Thus, if it's raining you can still cruise along whilst remaining dry, and warm in fact. Till you get to a lock.....

 

I suppose you are correct, if you ignore all of the benefits, just a 'couple' :

 

1) No need to spend £100's every couple of years on blacking

2) No need to spemd £1,000's every 'few' years on repainting

3) No need to worry about rust, MIC, corrosion, electrolisis, minimum hull thickness for insurance, sinking etc.

4) Easier to fit a TV aerial.

 

For a 'weekend' / 'Summer holiday' boat a GRP has a lot going for it, for a long term liveaboard, a long steel narrow boat can generally be insulated better, and a SF stove used for warmth and hot water more easily than a GRP.

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29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For a 'weekend' / 'Summer holiday' boat a GRP has a lot going for it, for a long term liveaboard, a long steel narrow boat can generally be insulated better, and a SF stove used for warmth and hot water more easily than a GRP.

Yes totally agree, for what the OP needs a good GRP would be better suited, ideal for short stays and travelling quickly in short periods, easier to find moorings and cheaper licence if around 30ft too. I think a lot of new boaters would be better suited to smaller boats as most have bought over the last year for short break holidays due to Covid and don’t need a 60ft Narrowboat. But a lot have been influenced in their decision by watching YouTube during lockdown.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I suppose you are correct, if you ignore all of the benefits, just a 'couple' :

1) No need to spend £100's every couple of years on blacking

2) No need to spemd £1,000's every 'few' years on repainting

3) No need to worry about rust, MIC, corrosion, electrolisis, minimum hull thickness for insurance, sinking etc.

4) Easier to fit a TV aerial.

For a 'weekend' / 'Summer holiday' boat a GRP has a lot going for it, for a long term liveaboard, a long steel narrow boat can generally be insulated better, and a SF stove used for warmth and hot water more easily than a GRP.

We have hired 4 or 5 GRP cruisers on the Broads and The River Ouse, I like them, particularly the ones where you can open the roof over the dining table and eat "al fresco". They are also far more roomy than a narrow boat (being wider). Furthermore, if I were hiring a boat in the cooler wetter times of the year I'd rather get a GRP cruiser on the Broads than a narrow boat on the canals. So, for somewhere like The Broads, with no locks, I cannot understand anyone having a narrow boat.

However, on canals I would not want one. I remember going through a load of locks on the Great Ouse on the day the Ouse Boat club were out. It took an absolute age to get through the locks because all the GRP owners were taking forever, easing their boats into the locks, then tying their boats up and carefully letting out the rope as the level fell. That shows how much less robust GRP boats are and if you're going to be doing lots of locks I would not even consider one.

Edited by Justin Smith
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9 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

We have hired 4 or 5 GRP cruisers on the Broads and The River Ouse, I like them, particularly the ones where you can open the roof over the dining table and eat "al fresco". They are also far more roomy than a narrow boat (being wider). Furthermore, if I were hiring a boat in the cooler wetter times of the year I'd rather get a GRP cruiser on the Broads than a narrow boat on the canals. So, for somewhere like The Broads, with no locks, I cannot understand anyone having a narrow boat.

However, on canals I would not want one. I remember going through a load of locks on the Great Ouse on the day the Ouse Boat club were out. It took an absolute age to get through the locks because all the GRP owners were taking forever, easing their boats into the locks, then tying their boats up and carefully letting out the rope as the level fell. That shows how much less robust GRP boats are and if you're going to be doing lots of locks I would not even consider one.

Don't get confused between how robust grp is and how overly precious a lot of their owners are. A grp powerboat punching through waves at sea is under far more stress than gently bouncing against a lock wall. But the look on cruiser owners faces when I pull in to share a lock with them on my narrowboat, is often like I've just offered them a shit sandwich. 

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17 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Don't get confused between how robust grp is and how overly precious a lot of their owners are. A grp powerboat punching through waves at sea is under far more stress than gently bouncing against a lock wall. But the look on cruiser owners faces when I pull in to share a lock with them on my narrowboat, is often like I've just offered them a shit sandwich. 

But they scratch easily don't they ? And when they do you can't just put a bit of hull black over it can you ?

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1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

But they scratch easily don't they ? And when they do you can't just put a bit of hull black over it can you ?

No,it's the wrong colour.

You simply spread a little gel coat filler over the scratch.

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