Essential Check List/Questions for boat builder & hints and tips for a boat club interview!

[system 4-50]

I have emptied my ashtray.  Do I need a PCA?

[Bee]

Like many others I built my present boat from a shell, the builder supplied a note that it complied with everything. I made a big effort to build the thing to the RCD, At the time this was very difficult and potentially very expensive as you had to buy copies of every single rule. I got some from the library but getting the lot was just unaffordable for them - and I worked there. Much research followed and I realised that with few exceptions - electrics, stability,  and some other stuff - almost all of it was not relevant to the nuts and bolts of a canal boat- even one designed for European canals. It was, at the time, and probably still is, concerned about how you make the boat, the PROCESS you follow to comply and more about putting it on the market and the brochure you make about the systems on board. Anyway, our boat complies or exceeds most of the BSS, and I self certified the thing. To be honest, the only thing that I am certain it doesn't comply with is the size of the letter and no. punches I used to stamp the builders plate with, the engineering works that did little jobs for me only had small punches and at that stage I couldn't care less. Having self certified it more than 10  years ago it has been in 4 EU countries and the UK and nobody has bothered in the slightest about anything (except the fire extinguishers and whether the inspectors could have our chocolate hob nobs with their coffee), that was in Belgium and not really much to do with the RCD.  If the boat you are looking at has no RCD, well that's a shame and it would be better if it had but if its got a BSS and a sound hull that's good enough for all practical purposes.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, PD1964 said:

and I doubt changing an engine like for like would be called a major modification to some.

 

Read what I wrote not what you wanted it to say.

 

8 hours ago, PD1964 said:

It all boils down to how you interpret “major craft modification or conversion

 

No interpretaion needed it has been defined in the latest regulations.

 

 

If you want any more information I suggest you try and read the regs for yourself - your dismissive attitude has not changed with your new forum name.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Read what I wrote not what you wanted it to say.

 

 

No interpretaion needed it has been defined in the latest regulations.

 

 

If you want any more information I suggest you try and read the regs for yourself - your dismissive attitude has not changed with your new forum name.

I haven’t got a dismissive attitude the thing is I think you over egg things sometimes. As you said Narrowboat building is a cottage industry and I think sometimes you compare it with the more professional off shore market too much. Maybe the brokers you mentioned were off shore as I imagine they would be more hot on RCD/RCR when boats are more likely move around Europe.

  As Bee says above a lot of the RCD/RCR is irrelevant to narrowboats and that’s probably why people don’t pay much attention to it on the canal. Yes you said propulsion and I said engine, but I bet those people who have changed their engines or adapted their engines to electric haven’t followed the RCR and done a PCA, people just don’t understand the RCR so aren’t interested, it may catch them out but more then likely not, as it’s not enforced as probably would be too much red tape and money. As I said before very few surveyor’s mention it in survey’s, as their more interested in the BSC which is far more relevant in the real world of Narrowboats and cruising the canals.
 I changed my name in 2014, well just registered a new one when got banned for a bit, so not really that new 7 years. I live in the real world of canal life it’s not perfect but it is what it is and people don’t go around worrying about all the regulation’s and quoting them as you seam to do and brokers are quite happy to sell boats without an up to the minute RCD/RCR. As I said maybe more professional off shore but Chalk and Cheese.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Maybe the brokers you mentioned were off shore as I imagine they would be more hot on RCD/RCR when boats are more likely move around Europe.

 

Not having sold or bought a boat in the last few years, I have not come across this personally, BUT, it has been reported on this site by folks trying to sell their boat and the brokers refusing to accept them without either the original RCD documentation of a PCA.

 

These reports are regarding narrowboats on English inland waterways.

 

 

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

As you said Narrowboat building is a cottage industry and I think sometimes you compare it with the more professional off shore market too much

 

I am over egging nothing - I am simply making those considering buying a boat, having a boat built, or having one modified as to the current status of the relevant laws. They are at liberty to act on it, or, dismiss it completely, but at least they can make an informed decision.

The law appl;ies to all leisure boats, and whilst it may not be (currently) vigourously enforced, if there is an accident then I'm sure the MAIB would jump on any non-compliances, insurers would not pay out, and the sticky-stuff would hit the fan.

 

Yes, on 'lumpy water' the compliance with the laws are taken more seriously, but nothing like as seriously as on the continent. I have told the story several times, but when I bought the Cat in Croatia it was not allowed to be sold or leave the country without being de-registered and having the original RCD & VAT certificates. Because the documents were 'missing' and it was basically 'unsellable' I negotiated an £80,000 reduction in the price.

It then took some jiggery-pokery to get the necessary documentation before we could leave.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Mad Harold]

Probably aviation is the most regulated industry in the world.Many regulations are shrugged off or ignored and by people in high places.

When I did my commercial pilot's flying test,I had to cancel three times because the weather was below the specified limits.The decision to fly or not is part of the test,and if you opt to go when the weather is below limits,it is an automatic fail.

On turning up for the fourth time,the weather was "iffy"and I was about to cancel again,when the CAA examiner,dripping with gold braid,grabbed me by the elbow and said "for Christ's sake lets go,if we followed every rule we'd never get off the ground"

I liked this bloke,and even more when he passed me.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 I'm sure the MAIB would jump on any non-compliances, insurers would not pay out, and the sticky-stuff would hit the fan.

 

 

It's the get out of jail free card for insurers if the boat is found not to meet the regulations that is my main concern in all this. One car rail against regulations and accuse people of over egging the situation, but one should really make a worst case scenario consideration.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It's the get out of jail free card for insurers if the boat is found not to meet the regulations that is my main concern in all this. One car rail against regulations and accuse people of over egging the situation, but one should really make a worst case scenario consideration.

 What do you consider the worst case scenario? If everyone worried about the worst case scenario no boats would move out of the Marina, never mind go into a lock or do a tidal river.
 Regulations, so if a boat sinks in a lock and it’s navigation lights don’t comply with the RCR the insurance company wouldn’t pay or if it never had a “gas isolation below” sign on it’s gas locker contrary to the BSC. You can argue about the RCD/RCR regulations all day. Most narrowboats wouldn’t comply if they were inspected today, that’s why I don’t worry about them or bury my head in them.

My boat is licensed, insured and has a current BSC and that’s all CaRT require. Fortunately it had a RCD and is CE plated when new. Is it up to date with all the current RCR requirements probably not, but CaRT don’t state it has to be or my Insurance company say it must, so I don’t worry about it

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

What do you consider the worst case scenario? If everyone worried about the worst case scenario no boats would move out of the Marina, never mind go into a lock or do a tidal river. Regulations, so if a boat sinks in a lock and it’s navigation lights don’t comply with the RCR the insurance company wouldn’t pay or if it never had a “gas isolation below” sign on it’s gas locker contrary to the BSC. You can argue about the RCD/RCR regulations all day. Most narrowboats wouldn’t comply if they were inspected today, that’s why I don’t worry about them or bury my head in them.

 

Ah, that explains it, your head prefers sand.

 

The worst case scenarios are that insurance MIGHT (not will) refuse to pay out so you lose most of your £100,000 or whatever, the boat becomes unsellable except at a very large discount, or the owner finds themselves in court for selling a non-compliant boat. All of which can be avoided by taking a bot of care when commissioning the boat and during the build.

 

In this matter you seem to be trying to pass yourself off to the OP as an expert, so you would do well to investigate the duties that places on you and your advice when you do pass yourself off, even if you are not an actual expert.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Ah, that explains it, your head prefers sand.

 

 

Couldn't resist :

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Couldn't resist :

 

 

I am amazed at just how cavalier  some people are where the law is concerned because that is what the RCR is - the law. I bet they would behave differently if their car was nicked, they were beaten up and robbed, or their house burgled.

[PD1964]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Ah, that explains it, your head prefers sand.

 

The worst case scenarios are that insurance MIGHT (not will) refuse to pay out so you lose most of your £100,000 or whatever, the boat becomes unsellable except at a very large discount, or the owner finds themselves in court for selling a non-compliant boat. All of which can be avoided by taking a bot of care when commissioning the boat and during the build.

 

In this matter you seem to be trying to pass yourself off to the OP as an expert, so you would do well to investigate the duties that places on you and your advice when you do pass yourself off, even if you are not an actual expert.

I’m not and expert and it’s just a discussion forum, people can read what they want and act on any information they like, nothing is legally binding. 
  I live in the real world on the canal and I’m not some “jobs worth” quoting regulations to everyone saying their boat must be this and that or it’s not legal or not compliance with this and that. Most people aren’t bothered as long as it has passed the BSC, is licensed and Insured, a minority maybe bothered about the current Regulations do that they can cut and paste chapters worth of regulations on here that people don’t read.

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am amazed at just how cavalier  some people are where the law is concerned because that is what the RCR is - the law. I bet they would behave differently if their car was nicked, they were beaten up and robbed, or their house burgled.

What an absolute stupid comparison. Laughable.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964

[PD1964]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Couldn't resist :

 

 

 

Sorry but the RCR just doesn’t bother me and I won’t be reading all the regulations at bed time, maybe you can “cut’n’paste” them all on here like you usually do off some web site.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

I’m not and expert and it’s just a discussion forum, people can read what they want and act on any information they like, nothing is legally binding. 
  I live in the real world on the canal and I’m not some “jobs worth” quoting regulations to everyone saying their boat must be this and that or it’s not legal or not compliance with this and that. Most people aren’t bothered as long as it has passed the BSC, is licensed and Insured, a minority maybe bothered about the current Regulations do that they can cut and paste chapters worth of regulations on here that people don’t read.

 

In that case do not say things that clearly advised the OP and any others reading the topic that the RCR does not matter because if that was the case it would not be in place. The fact that the UK inland scene seems to ignore it does not remove it from statute. You and others are just hoping that those charged with enforcing it never tighten up and start prosecuting.

 

It is clear you are not really secure in your position because if you were, you would happily indemnify the OP against potential future costs.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Sorry but the RCR just doesn’t bother me

 

That is entirely your perogative, you have been informed what the law demands, you can choose to follow it, or you can ignore it, as you can allof the laws, in all walks of life.

 

As you like them so much - another little cut & paste for you :

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

Sorry but the RCR just doesn’t bother me and I won’t be reading all the regulations at bed time, maybe you can “cut’n’paste” them all on here like you usually do off some web site.

 

"Where ignorance is bliss, its folly to be wise" or "I can't be bothered to make sure my perception is correct".

[PD1964]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In that case do not say things that clearly advised the OP and any others reading the topic that the RCR does not matter because if that was the case it would not be in place. The fact that the UK inland scene seems to ignore it does not remove it from statute. You and others are just hoping that those charged with enforcing it never tighten up and start prosecuting.

 

It is clear you are not really secure in your position because if you were, you would happily indemnify the OP against potential future costs.

I’ve never said it doesn’t matter on a new boat, all new boats must have on. I’ve always said you can’t relay on a self appointed surveyor as you recommend and have said that the boat builder will take care of it, but you mentioned these could be fraudulent so get someone independent in. That’s it.

  Your last paragraph is laughable just like your law comparison earlier

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Most people aren’t bothered as long as it has passed the BSC,

 

Maybe you should read up on the BSS 'small print' as well, it is very easy to invalidate your BSS by doing work on your boat and leaving it non-compliant and with an invalid BSSC

 

Many owners believe that their BSSC is valid for four years and, by doing what the majority of boat owners do in the form of alterations/improvements to their craft, they sometimes (unknowingly) invalidate their BSSC because they do not realise that such actions may contravene the BSSC 'terms and conditions'.

 

I'm sure you noticed when the BSS T&Cs were changed to :

 

 

Revised terms

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

 

For owners who are contemplating changes to their craft's configuration, they should ensure that the work is carried out by a company/individual who is competent to carry out the work and understands the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme. For those intending to implement such changes themselves, they should, in the first instance, seek guidance from the BSS Office (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us) to establish if the intended work may impact upon the validity of their current BSSC.

[PD1964]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

"Where ignorance is bliss, its folly to be wise" or "I can't be bothered to make sure my perception is correct".

I’m sure Alan will give you another “greenie” for that like he does on all your posts?

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe you should read up on the BSS 'small print' as well, it is very easy to invalidate your BSS by doing work on your boat and leaving it non-compliant and with an invalid BSSC

 

Many owners believe that their BSSC is valid for four years and, by doing what the majority of boat owners do in the form of alterations/improvements to their craft, they sometimes (unknowingly) invalidate their BSSC because they do not realise that such actions may contravene the BSSC 'terms and conditions'.

 

I'm sure you noticed when the BSS T&Cs were changed to :

 

 

Revised terms

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

 

For owners who are contemplating changes to their craft's configuration, they should ensure that the work is carried out by a company/individual who is competent to carry out the work and understands the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme. For those intending to implement such changes themselves, they should, in the first instance, seek guidance from the BSS Office (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us) to establish if the intended work may impact upon the validity of their current BSSC.

I do know that actually as it’s the BSC, does it mention anywhere the RCR in there? maybe you can cut’n’paste it if you find a reference.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

I’m sure Alan will give you another “greenie” for that like he does on all your posts?

 

Only the ones where he has saved me the effort of typing out the same ...................

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I’m sure Alan will give you another “greenie” for that like he does on all your posts?

I do know that actually.

 

You claim you and your friends know all the RCD 'stuff' as well - do you consider the BSS T&Cs are as irrelvant as you claim the RCD to be ?

[PD1964]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Only the ones where he has saved me the effort of typing out the same ...................

 

You claim you and your friends know all the RCD 'stuff' as well - do you consider the BSS T&Cs are as irrelvant as you claim the RCD to be ?

Please I have never said I know all the RCD stuff and I never said my friends know all the RCD stuff, I said they were boat builders that’s all. I’ve never said the BSS is irrelevant as it’s not.

  What you getting at?

I’ll let you and your friend carry on the conversation about how import the RCR is to narrowboats, as it’s getting a bit silly and laughable. Don’t you agree?

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964

[Captain Pegg]

Edited because iPad is on the blink and mashed up my typing.

 

I can’t be bothered to re-type it all.

 

My main point was to re-iterate that on a daily basis no boater need be much bothered about the RCR because it’s not aimed at boating activities or their safety. It’s a control on entry into market so very relevant to the question posed by the OP and about which they are now hopefully better informed and can make an educated decision to suit their own appetite for risk (which is the only one that matters here).

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Captain Pegg

[Mad Harold]

4 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

"for Christ's sake lets go,if we followed every rule we'd never get off the ground"

 

This was from a highly qualified ex forces pilot and now a CAAFU  (civil aviation authority flying unit) examiner.

Worst case scenario,we crashed the aircraft and had we survived,I would have failed my test,the examiner would be fired and the aircraft insurance would decline the claim.

If you were to think about the worst case scenario for everything you do, you would never get off the ground.?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Please I have never said I know all the RCD stuff and I never said my friends know all the RCD stuff,

 

 

So when your boat builder friends sign the certificate of compliance they are committing fraud, as, if they don't know what the requirements are they cannot sign to say they have met them.

 

I'll just leave it as that as we will be arguing forever.

[PD1964]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

So when your boat builder friends sign the certificate of compliance they are committing fraud, as, if they don't know what the requirements are they cannot sign to say they have met them.

 

I'll just leave it as that as we will be arguing forever.

 

 I have never said anything about their business practices and never mentioned how much they know, I imagine they know far more then you or I about current regulations, but it’s not a topic we talk about. all I know is that all their boats legally comply as they should, go and enjoy the sun and the rest of the day.

Edited June 22, 2021 by PD1964