Really weird electric issue

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

When I press the “virtual master switch” button, lots of things get turned off electronically including the level meters. My point really is that there is no fundamental need to turn off the master switch, provided all the consumers are turned off, or at least those that you want to have turned off.

You have a virtual master switch to turn off all the individual circuits. For those of us that don't, then turning off the physical master switch is the easiest way to ensure nothing is inadvertently left switched on.

[tehmarks]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

When I press the “virtual master switch” button, lots of things get turned off electronically including the level meters. My point really is that there is no fundamental need to turn off the master switch, provided all the consumers are turned off, or at least those that you want to have turned off.

Most people don't have a vastly overspecified electrical system. Would I rather turn my fridge, water pump, whatever, off individually, or would I rather isolate with one switch that guarantees there are no parasitic loads connected to the batteries? I'll go for the latter, please, it's just quicker. And easier. And more foolproof.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

When we leave the boat for months, we do the same as we do at the house, ie we leave the gas switched on. The standards for gas installations on boats are pretty high, higher than in a house.

But on the other hand, gas is unlikely to collect in the bottom of your house.

[ANarrowEscape]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

You have a virtual master switch to turn off all the individual circuits. For those of us that don't, then turning off the physical master switch is the easiest way to ensure nothing is inadvertently left switched on.

I only had a few things really connected: fridge (which I turn off on a switch; general stuff, lights, pumps etc, but all have switches to turn them off; bilge pump and gas sniffer. But now the sniffer is on another system, it just leaves the bilge pump, which I'm goin to put on a battery to make sure it isn't that that's causing the issues, it could be, but I doubt it is. 

I only leave the boat for a few days at the most, so would like the option to turn the electric on or off, rather than it doing it itself. 

[nicknorman]

29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But on the other hand, gas is unlikely to collect in the bottom of your house.

If gas is going to collect in the bottom of your boat, why would it choose to do so only when you are not onboard?

[ANarrowEscape]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

If gas is going to collect in the bottom of your boat, why would it choose to do so only when you are not onboard?

I think you've misread, or the messages are getting lost in translation. It's my 12v that is tripping when I'm not onboard. I have a gas sniffer, which I thought could be the cause, but I have eliminated that by wiring to another 12v system I have. 

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

If gas is going to collect in the bottom of your boat, why would it choose to do so only when you are not onboard?

Well it wouldn't, but since there are periods when I am not on the boat that are significantly longer than those when I am aboard*, then the chances are that any leak which did develop could go undetected for much longer than when I am onboard.

 

*I haven't seen the boat since the end of October when we left it on its winter mooring just before the start of the November lockdown.

[nicknorman]

34 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

Most people don't have a vastly overspecified electrical system. Would I rather turn my fridge, water pump, whatever, off individually, or would I rather isolate with one switch that guarantees there are no parasitic loads connected to the batteries? I'll go for the latter, please, it's just quicker. And easier. And more foolproof.

Setting aside your silly little snipe about “vastly overspecified electrical system”, which I am happy to put down to your ignorance, yes I agree that for some boats, turning off the master switch is a convenient way of making sure everything is off. But for other boats it is not necessary nor in some cases desirable. In the case of the OP it was not a question of stuff being left on inadvertently, quite the opposite in fact. And so the derailing of the thread with waffle about the importance of turning off the battery master needed to be discredited.

5 minutes ago, ANarrowEscape said:

I think you've misread, or the messages are getting lost in translation. It's my 12v that is tripping when I'm not onboard. I have a gas sniffer, which I thought could be the cause, but I have eliminated that by wiring to another 12v system I have. 

I know, sorry we are getting off your topic. My post was not directed at you and in fact in general trying to support the way in which you describe operating your boat.

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, ANarrowEscape said:

I think you've misread, or the messages are getting lost in translation. It's my 12v that is tripping when I'm not onboard. I have a gas sniffer, which I thought could be the cause, but I have eliminated that by wiring to another 12v system I have. 

And my point was that there is no point in leaving a gas sniffer on when you are away from the boat for two reasons:

1. If it goes off when you aren't there, what are you going to do about it anyway (if you even knew it had gone off)?

2. If you turn off the gas at the bottle, the only possible leak is from the bottle itself or its valve, in which case the leaking gas will be harmlessly dispersed via the gas locker drain.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Well it wouldn't, but since there are periods when I am not on the boat that are significantly longer than those when I am aboard*, then the chances are that any leak which did develop could go undetected for much longer than when I am onboard.

 

*I haven't seen the boat since the end of October when we left it on its winter mooring just before the start of the November lockdown.

My point is that one should be very confident that the gas isn’t going to randomly start leaking, and if one is, there is no point in turning it off. The very act of repeatedly turning the gas tank on and off will increase the likelihood of leaks at the valve - that of course not really being a safety issue, but gas is expensive!

[Momac]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

2. If you turn off the gas at the bottle, the only possible leak is from the bottle itself or its valve, in which case the leaking gas will be harmlessly dispersed via the gas locker drain.

Not true.

Gas may be  generated from batteries.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

Well it takes all sorts! When we leave the boat for months, we do the same as we do at the house, ie we leave the gas switched on. The standards for gas installations on boats are pretty high, higher than in a house.

 

The difference of course it's that if the gas system in your house develops a gas leak while you're away the natural gas is more likely to dissapate, whereas a LPG leak on a boat has nowhere to go and will collect in the bilges.

 

Gas installations on boats should be safe but one never knows, it only takes a bit of vibration to cause a leaky joint. I've only had one gas leak on my boat and it wasn't one of my joints but instead one of the parts in the gas water heater that failed. 

 

Anyway as you say, it takes all sorts. I always turn off the gas and water if leaving the boat for any length of time. It's not like opening the gas locker lid and turning an isolator is any great chore. 

 

Back to the OP's issue, I don't really understand the function of a gas sniffer/alarm if nobody is aboard? Unless it's something very modern which notifies you by text. It's a bit like that buddhist question: if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?

[tehmarks]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Setting aside your silly little snipe about “vastly overspecified electrical system”, which I am happy to put down to your ignorance

No ignorance: I have a degree in making embedded software work on all sorts of devices, and a real world career in electrical and data systems for theatre, concerts, temporary events, etc. Your system is well-described in various threads on here. It's very much the anomaly among the fleet of narrowboats on the waterways. Your 'virtual master switch' is the functional equivalent of turning the master switch off for the vast majorities of those on the waterways who have inherited boats with unknown and often questionable electrical systems, or for those who have devices that are otherwise difficult to disconnect due to the way they are wired, or...etc.

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

No ignorance: I have a degree in making embedded software work on all sorts of devices, and a real world career in electrical and data systems for theatre, concerts, temporary events, etc. Your system is well-described in various threads on here. It's very much the anomaly among the fleet of narrowboats on the waterways. Your 'virtual master switch' is the functional equivalent of turning the master switch off for the vast majorities of those on the waterways who have inherited boats with unknown and often questionable electrical systems, or for those who have devices that are otherwise difficult to disconnect due to the way they are wired, or...etc.

Interesting degree topic, funnily enough I have never seen a degree course entitled “making embedded software work on all sorts of devices”. Which university runs that?

 

The virtual Masterswitch is not an exact functional equivalent to a mechanical master switch because it allows for control over which services are turned off and which are left on.

 

Anyway as I said earlier, I am not against turning off the master switch in principle if it suits the owner and the boat, but that it is not the only strategy.

[ANarrowEscape]

19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Setting aside your silly little snipe about “vastly overspecified electrical system”, which I am happy to put down to your ignorance, yes I agree that for some boats, turning off the master switch is a convenient way of making sure everything is off. But for other boats it is not necessary nor in some cases desirable. In the case of the OP it was not a question of stuff being left on inadvertently, quite the opposite in fact. And so the derailing of the thread with waffle about the importance of turning off the battery master needed to be discredited.

I know, sorry we are getting off your topic. My post was not directed at you and in fact in general trying to support the way in which you describe operating your boat.

No worries, I didn't want to cause a debate, but it appears the Gas sniffer seems to be the main focus now. Not for me, as I think it would possibly last longer when not being constantly switched on and off, but now it's whether I should bother having it on.

 

 

[ANarrowEscape]

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Back to the OP's issue, I don't really understand the function of a gas sniffer/alarm if nobody is aboard? Unless it's something very modern which notifies you by text. It's a bit like that buddhist question: if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?

But Buddha, when theorizing quantum mechanics, didn't have neighbours with mobile phones, who did agree to let me know if anything was untoward with the boat.

That aside, it really wasn't my OP or the issue I was having. I'm not really sure why the Gas sniffer is being that much of a talking point.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ANarrowEscape said:

I'm not really sure why the Gas sniffer is being that much of a talking point.

 

Maybe beacause you are (possibly) almost unique in the wold of canal boats in having one.

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, ANarrowEscape said:

No worries, I didn't want to cause a debate, but it appears the Gas sniffer seems to be the main focus now. Not for me, as I think it would possibly last longer when not being constantly switched on and off, but now it's whether I should bother having it on.

 

 

I have to agree that there doesn’t seem much point in having a gas alarm on when you are not on the boat. But that is not related to your issue.

 

As an aside, we left a smoke alarm on when we left the boat in the marina for a few weeks. The marina phoned up to say they had complaints from a neighbouring boat that our boat was beeping loudly and disturbing them. Fortunately I’d given the marina office a key and they had to go and chuck the alarm in the bin. The point being that, depending on where your boat is moored, it can not only be fairly pointless but also quite antisocial to leave alarms active on an empty boat.

[ANarrowEscape]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I have to agree that there doesn’t seem much point in having a gas alarm on when you are not on the boat. But that is not related to your issue.

 

As an aside, we left a smoke alarm on when we left the boat in the marina for a few weeks. The marina phoned up to say they had complaints from a neighbouring boat that our boat was beeping loudly and disturbing them. Fortunately I’d given the marina office a key and they had to go and chuck the alarm in the bin. The point being that, depending on where your boat is moored, it can not only be fairly pointless but also quite antisocial to leave alarms active on an empty boat.

My neighbors are fine with it, and it's only ever gone off once (thankfully), when we were on-board, but that was hairspray. 

But again, my neighbours advised me to get one and have said they would let me know if anything is going off. I'm not that far away, so...

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe beacause you are (possibly) almost unique in the wold of canal boats in having one.

Both my direct neighbors have them and sent me the link to a good 12v one. So, not sure I am.

 

[ANarrowEscape]

The gas sniffer aside - which is not connected to the system in question. 

 

I will take some photos of the electrics, fuse box ans switch, and see if anybody can help with the issue off my electric switching off when I'm not there, but seemingly okay when I am. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Not true.

Gas may be  generated from batteries.

The normal gas produced is lighter than air so rises out of the boat. the gas produced by faulty batteries may be a different matter

[ANarrowEscape]

11 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The normal gas produced is lighter than air so rises out of the boat. the gas produced by faulty batteries may be a different matter

Propane and butane is heavier than air. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, ANarrowEscape said:

Propane and butane is heavier than air. 

Please read my reply in context with the message I quoted. Neither propane nor butane  are produced by batteries. Serviceable batteries produce hydrogen and oxygen mainly when being charged. hydrogen is lighter than air while oxygen can not burn so won't explode although it is needed to support combustion. Faulty or dry batteries can produce hydrogen sulphide when on charge. i am not sure if that will combust but it does nasty things to people and tarnishes metals. it will also set off CO  alarms.

[ANarrowEscape]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Please read my reply in context with the message I quoted. Neither propane nor butane  are produced by batteries. Serviceable batteries produce hydrogen and oxygen mainly when being charged. hydrogen is lighter than air while oxygen can not burn so won't explode although it is needed to support combustion. Faulty or dry batteries can produce hydrogen sulphide when on charge. i am not sure if that will combust but it does nasty things to people and tarnishes metals. it will also set off CO  alarms.

My bad.

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, ANarrowEscape said:

My bad.

No problem, it can get difficult when topics wander about like this one has, from you question via the merits of turning the master switch and gas off when leaving the boat through domestic gas leaks to batteries gassing..